338 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

Zanallen wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Except there is some proof in the game and lore. Rivain where mages consort with spirits freely. The Dalish.Haven. ALl groups that have mages and aren't overrun by abominations. 

Really? This is what you are using for an argument? We no very, very little about Rivain. For all we know, the country could be infested by blood mages who control the top level of govenrment. Yhe onlywe've been told is that the "witches" are respected and consort with fade spirits. As for the Dalish, their mages are, in fact, the leaders of the Dalish tribes. Plus, we only saw two tribes within the entirety of the game. That's two keepers and one of them was a crazy man who cursed an entire generation of people into being werewolves and gave himself immortality. Haven...Haven was populated by a crazed cult that worshipped a dragon and did blood sacrifices.

And yet its still more evidence than for the oppposite.

[Riona45]

HolyAvenger wrote...

You guys know there's a lot more to the Chantry than policing mages right? Its the biggest organied religion in Thedas.

Of course.  I'm against the invasive cultural hegemony of the Chantry and I have opinions on other aspects of it than just what they do to mages.  If you or someone else makes a thread focusing on them (instead of mages) maybe I'll find my way to it and comment.

Modifié par Riona45, 16 février 2011 - 06:09 .

[Zanallen]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

And let the next party that comes along make off with this reveared amorphous symbol, divine or otherwise? Their likely being unaware of the long term physiological effects it may have on them? 

How is that responsible?

And you are extrapolating. There is no proof that having the ashes in your possession will have any harmful effects. The room itself may be dangerous, but you said that the adventurers would loot the ashes, so that isn't a problem. At best, someone would make off with a highly potent ingredient for healing potions. If its a choice between destroying a religious artifact and leaving it alone in a cave, I think I'd just leave it there.

But as I said, this is off topic and this thread might get closed if this continues. So, if you want to discuss the moral implications of the Sacred Ashes questline, you should make another thread.

[Rake21]

I wonder how much of the hate for the Chantry is for the lore, and how much is the general hate for any organized religion.

[Zanallen]

Riona45 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
Or you could, I don't know, just not tell anyone it was there?

True, although in the game that's only an option if you are willing to casually throw a knife into Brother Genitivi's head.

And yes, within the game's mechanics, that is the only way to gain the reaver specialization. Its still a rather bogus move.

Maybe, but the point was that you do gain something from it, contrary to what you said.  Maybe the PC simply desires power.

And the poster I was refering to was trying to say that he would destroy the ashes for the betterment of others. Someone after power at any costs doesn't seem like the kind of person who would go out of their way to help others.

[Riona45]

The Water God wrote...

By believe in the chantry i did mean maker

But they aren't the same thing.  The Chantry as it is now isn't the only way of worshipping the Maker that ever existed, it's just the version that an overprivileged Orlesian emperor thought was correct.

...and as in what the chantry does for the good of mankind (give people hope, give money to the needy)

It gives some people hope.  There is evidence that members of the Chantry try to help the needy but we don't know how efficiently they do it (or, if they help all needy equally--it's a human organization in a world dominated by humans who see elves as not really people).

As for the dialogue you quoted for Zevran...I've seen that before, and I honestly think you read it as being more earnest than it actually was.

Modifié par Riona45, 16 février 2011 - 06:17 .

[Zanallen]

Morroian wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Except there is some proof in the game and lore. Rivain where mages consort with spirits freely. The Dalish.Haven. ALl groups that have mages and aren't overrun by abominations. 

Really? This is what you are using for an argument? We no very, very little about Rivain. For all we know, the country could be infested by blood mages who control the top level of govenrment. Yhe onlywe've been told is that the "witches" are respected and consort with fade spirits. As for the Dalish, their mages are, in fact, the leaders of the Dalish tribes. Plus, we only saw two tribes within the entirety of the game. That's two keepers and one of them was a crazy man who cursed an entire generation of people into being werewolves and gave himself immortality. Haven...Haven was populated by a crazed cult that worshipped a dragon and did blood sacrifices.

And yet its still more evidence than for the oppposite.

But your evidence, and I use the word loosely, is a lot of unfounded extrapolation, examples of mages in the role of leadership (which people don't want due to the threat of blood magic), and a murderous cult who worships a dragon and engages in blood sacrifices.

[jeffnindo4281]

If the Ashes are imbued with 'sacred' properties from being exposed to the lyrium ore for so long, and they in fact have healing properties for the sick (an objective verification that there is something natural/magical at work), you would do well to handle them with care from the outset.
Especially since its properties are so poorly understood.

At best you get healing potions. What you get at worst is pure speculation, in no way worth the risk of leaving the ashes there.

I'm not particularly interested in starting another thread, even if I knew how to. I just felt compelled to have my say about this quest as it was a bit frustrating for my Warden.

That said, I am enjoying this discourse very much. It can be hard to tell with just text so I wanted to express that clearly.

Modifié par jeffnindo4281, 16 février 2011 - 06:24 .

[Zanallen]

The Water God wrote...

How is it off topic? Were dicussing whether not the maker should continue to exist.

Because the urn of sacred ashes has little to do with the Chantry as an organization and its restriction of mages.

[Riona45]

Rake21 wrote...

I wonder how much of the hate for the Chantry is for the lore, and how much is the general hate for any organized religion.

People "wonder" this a lot, and act as if they are so clever for having thought of it.

[Rake21]

Riona45 wrote...

Rake21 wrote...

I wonder how much of the hate for the Chantry is for the lore, and how much is the general hate for any organized religion.

People "wonder" this a lot, and act as if they are so clever for having thought of it.

Really? Hadn't seen it in this thread.  Granted, I only read one page.

But I wasn't snarking.  It's an honest question I ask when I look at a lot of RPGs.

[Zanallen]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

If the Ashes are imbued with 'sacred' properties from being exposed to the lyrium ore for so long, and they in fact have healing properties for the sick (an objective verification that there is something natural/magical at work), you would do well to handle them with care from the outset.
Especially since its properties are so poorly understood.

At best you get healing potions. What you get at worst is pure speculation, in no way worth the risk of leaving the ashes there.

I'm not particularly interested in starting another thread, even if I knew how to. I just felt compelled to have my say about this quest as it was a bit frustrating for my Warden.

That said, I enjoyed this discourse very much. It can be hard to tell with just text.

It is frustrating; however, its a game and we have to work within the parameters set down by the designers. It would be nice if we could tweak the game how we see fit in any situation, but alas the technology isn't there yet. At the very least, it would be nice if the designers told us one way or the other about the truth of the ashes.

[jeffnindo4281]

Zanallen wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

If the Ashes are imbued with 'sacred' properties from being exposed to the lyrium ore for so long, and they in fact have healing properties for the sick (an objective verification that there is something natural/magical at work), you would do well to handle them with care from the outset.
Especially since its properties are so poorly understood.

At best you get healing potions. What you get at worst is pure speculation, in no way worth the risk of leaving the ashes there.

I'm not particularly interested in starting another thread, even if I knew how to. I just felt compelled to have my say about this quest as it was a bit frustrating for my Warden.

That said, I enjoyed this discourse very much. It can be hard to tell with just text.

It is frustrating; however, its a game and we have to work within the parameters set down by the designers. It would be nice if we could tweak the game how we see fit in any situation, but alas the technology isn't there yet. At the very least, it would be nice if the designers told us one way or the other about the truth of the ashes.

I suppose the symbols in the dialogue wheel, and the Rival/Friend dynamic in DA2 are steps in the right direction.

Modifié par jeffnindo4281, 16 février 2011 - 06:32 .

[Morroian]

Zanallen wrote...

But your evidence, and I use the word loosely, is a lot of unfounded extrapolation, examples of mages in the role of leadership (which people don't want due to the threat of blood magic), and a murderous cult who worships a dragon and engages in blood sacrifices.

Its not unfounded, its circumstantial but still there.

Plus we have the following bit of lore from the Bioware blog: "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off. "

Also as some have pointed out in previous threads on this topic mages weren't always as under the thumb of the templars as they are now.

[jeffnindo4281]

I wonder.. since the Ashes have been in the caves undisturbed for so long, being affected by the surrounding Lyrium Ore to the point it that it has unique properties by the time the Warden's party finds it, shouldn't it be as dangerous to approach and handle (for non-Dwarves) as raw ore is?

[Riona45]

The Water God wrote...

Zevran is actually pretty earnest in the conversation. He's obiviousley snapping back at Alistair, and talks about how he feels about the relationship between his job and his religion. And really wouldn't make sense for him to say he's devout like most Antivians if he wasn't being earnest.  So yeah he's devout and believes in the maker like I said.

Not really sure how you were able to come up with him not being earnest in the conversation. But okay...

Oh, you're right, why would Zevran ever say anything at wasn't true?  Everything he's ever said is truely heartfelt--especially in his conversations with Wynne!

I'm baffled at you because I think you completely missed the point, based on the fact that Zevran is an amoral assassin and proven liar and comes from a land where the use of assassination is considered the norm.  I read it (and heard it in the tone of his voice) as a smartass comment about how a person can murder as much as they want as long as they "ask for forgiveness" afterwards.  That, and I'm pretty sure the leaders of the Chantry wouldn't condone murder (at least, not openly).

Modifié par Riona45, 16 février 2011 - 07:06 .

[Zanallen]

Morroian wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

But your evidence, and I use the word loosely, is a lot of unfounded extrapolation, examples of mages in the role of leadership (which people don't want due to the threat of blood magic), and a murderous cult who worships a dragon and engages in blood sacrifices.

Its not unfounded, its circumstantial but still there.

Plus we have the following bit of lore from the Bioware blog: "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off. "

Also as some have pointed out in previous threads on this topic mages weren't always as under the thumb of the templars as they are now.

It is unfounded because there is no actual evidence. What do we really know about Rivain? We know that most of the country follows the Qun and that their wise women routinely converse with spirits of the fade and allow themselves to be possessed. So, until more information comes about, Rivain can't be used as an example for why mages should be free. Heck, for all we know, the wise women could be controlling the populace through blood magic much like the old Tevinter imperium.

The Keepers of Dalish clans are all magic users. I have already said that the people of Fereldan don't trust mages in power due to the reminder of the magisters of the imperium. In DA:O, we saw two Dalish clans. One of the Keepers seemed to be a kind leader, but the other was a man obsessed with vengeance who gave himself immortality, created a curse that turned people into werewolves and created a situation that threatened the wellbeing of his own people.

The Tevinter magisters...Like the Rivaini, we don't know much about what is going on in Tevinter now a days. They are in a constant war with the Qunari and they do sell elves into slavery, so I somehow doubt life is all that sweet.

Here is a good quote from the codex:

One can see that Minrathous
was once the center of the world. The vestiges of her power and
artistry yet stand. But they are buried in the layers of filth that the
Imperium's decadence has accumulated over the ages. The magocracy live
in elegant stone towers, literally elevated above the stench of the
slaves and peasants below. The outskirts of Minrathous are awash in a
sea of refugees turned destitute by the never-ending war between the
Imperium and the qunari.

Modifié par Zanallen, 16 février 2011 - 07:04 .

[GodWood]

FILTHY ANARCHISTS!



GOGO CHANTRY!

[Riona45]

GodWood wrote...

FILTHY ANARCHISTS!

Contrary to popular belief, the solution to authoritarianism need not be anarchy.

Modifié par Riona45, 16 février 2011 - 07:08 .

[jeffnindo4281]

Modifié par jeffnindo4281, 16 février 2011 - 07:18 .

[Lurklen]

Zanallen wrote...

It is unfounded because there is no actual evidence. What do we really know about Rivain? We know that most of the country follows the Qun and that their wise women routinely converse with spirits of the fade and allow themselves to be possessed. So, until more information comes about, Rivain can't be used as an example for why mages should be free. Heck, for all we know, the wise women could be controlling the populace through blood magic much like the old Tevinter imperium.

The Keepers of Dalish clans are all magic users. I have already said that the people of Fereldan don't trust mages in power due to the reminder of the magisters of the imperium. In DA:O, we saw two Dalish clans. One of the Keepers seemed to be a kind leader, but the other was a man obsessed with vengeance who gave himself immortality, created a curse that turned people into werewolves and created a situation that threatened the wellbeing of his own people.

The Tevinter magisters...Like the Rivaini, we don't know much about what is going on in Tevinter now a days. They are in a constant war with the Qunari and they do sell elves into slavery, so I somehow doubt life is all that sweet.

 To be fair though there isn't any one place in Thedas (or anywhere really) where life is perfect. I mean sure the slave trade is bad in Tevinter but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the mages being in power. And I think it would be somewhat noticable if the population of Rivain was under the control of the wise women through blood magic. I mean it is an entire country with it's own religion and good relations with the elves, niether of which suggest it's being controlled by some kind of cabal of blood mages. To suggest that it is, is just as crazy as suggesting it's somekind of mage utopia. We don't have evidence that these countries are doing well because their mages are under less restrictions, but we don't have evidence that it's causeing more problems for them either.

 The other nations who don't share the Chantrys policy on mages likely have their share of problems but they must have some other way of dealing with the problem of abominations. We don't know if those methods are better or worse than the Chantrys but they must be different or else they would likely just send their mages to the Circle. And in a from a meta point of view there would be no point in establishing that these countries are different from the chantry ones if there wasn't something interesting about them being different. .

Modifié par Lurklen, 16 février 2011 - 07:32 .

[Zanallen]

Lurklen wrote...

 To be fair though there isn't any one place in Thedas (or anywhere really) where life is perfect. I mean sure the slave trade is bad in Tevinter but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the mages being in power. And I think it would be somewhat noticable if the population of Rivain was under the control of the wise women through blood magic. I mean it is an entire country with it's own religion and good relations with the elves, niether of which suggest it's being controlled by some kind of cabal of blood mages. To suggest that it is, is just as crazy as suggesting it's somekind of mage utopia. We don't have evidence that these countries are doing well because their mages are under less restrictions, but we don't have evidence that it's causeing more problems for them either.

 The other nations who don't share the Chantrys policy on mages likely have their share of problems but they must have some other way of dealing with the problem of abominations. We don't know if those methods are better or worse than the Chantrys but they must be different or else they would likely just send their mages to the Circle. And in a from a meta point of view there would be no point in establishing that these countries are different from the chantry ones if there was something interesting about them being different.

Well, that's kind of my point. There is no information out there. As such, people using these countries as an example for why mages should be free is just ridiculous. One line of codex that, for all intents and purposes, sounds like mere rumour is not a basis for a discussion. Honestly, considering what the Qunari do to their mages and Rivain having a large quantity of people who practice the Qun, I doubt their mages are doing all that well.