338 réponses à ce sujet

[Riona45]

Zanallen wrote...
Honestly, considering what the Qunari do to their mages and Rivain having a large quantity of people who practice the Qun, I doubt their mages are doing all that well.

And who was arguing that mages should be treated the way the Qunari treat them?  Just because someone doesn't approve of Chantry policies doesn't mean they think Qunari policies are awesome.

Modifié par Riona45, 16 février 2011 - 07:34 .

[Lurklen]

Zanallen wrote...

Well, that's kind of my point. There is no information out there. As such, people using these countries as an example for why mages should be free is just ridiculous. One line of codex that, for all intents and purposes, sounds like mere rumour is not a basis for a discussion. Honestly, considering what the Qunari do to their mages and Rivain having a large quantity of people who practice the Qun, I doubt their mages are doing all that well.

 The fact that the wise women are mentioned at all would suggest that in southron  Rivain(the non qunari area) they hold some position of respect. The question isn't so much whether their mages are doing well, it's already been suggested through a mixture of dev comments and codex entries that in Tevinter and Rivain mages are treated with more freedoms than in Chantry nations(though exactly to what degree is unknown) what isn't clear is the effect this has had on those societies. But by that token we don't really know how involved with society mages are in chantry nations. They seem like a very useful resource, that I have a feeling is going to waste due to fear. If the Circle could have more control of their personal freedoms as well as being givin a purpose devoted to bettering the lives of all peoples I think there would be a lot less fear of them. Which I think might lead them to rage against the Chantry less.

 I mean right now what do they really do? They are taught to use their gifts and obey and then they are kept on a short leash and given nothing to do. That's just a waste it'd be like training a massive army in peace time just to have them wait around and do nothing while still keeping them housed in a barracks seperated from their homes. It's costly and just breeds trouble.

[Zanallen]

Riona45 wrote...

And who was arguing that mages should be treated the way the Qunari treat them?  Just because someone doesn't approve of Chantry policies doesn't mean they think Qunari policies are awesome.

Morroian was saying that the mages have less restrictions in Rivian and other non-Andrastian countries. I was pointing out that Rivian has a large population of people who follow the Qun. We now know how the Qunari, followers of the Qun, treat their mages.

Personally, I think the Chantry goes too far; however, all of this Chantry hate and bring down the templar rigmarole is just silly. We really don't know how mages fare in other countries. Is keeping them in the circle right? No. Is it necessary? Most citizens of Fereldan seem to think so.

The fact is that mages are dangerous and are a ready portal for demons from the fade to interact with every day life. They need to be policed one way of the other to prevent issues.

Now, if I had it my way, the circles would exist as mage schools. Children shown to have magical talent would go to these schools until such time that they are deemed in control of their abilities. Once their training is complete, they would be allowed to return to their homes. However, they would still be subject to having a phylactery crafted to track them down and they must be registered with whatever governing body was put in charge of them. They must return to the circle once every few years to 'renew" their license. Mages would be allowed to inherit titles from their family; however, cannot marry into titles or hold position on a ruling council.

Normal mages would be taught little to no offensive magic. They would mainly be instructed on the dangers of the fade and how to resist demons. They can also learn basic defensive abilities. If the mage wishes, s/he can sign up for further training. This training would be either combat training, in which case they would be enlisted into the army after their training is complete, or healing, in which case they would be asked to work with relief organizations.

Templars would still be trained and maintained as an elite force designed to track down and eliminate rogue elements. Use of magic against someone would be considered assault with a deadly weapon and that mage would be labeled as a maleficar.

And that's what I have so far...

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

And who was arguing that mages should be treated the way the Qunari treat them?  Just because someone doesn't approve of Chantry policies doesn't mean they think Qunari policies are awesome.

Morroian was saying that the mages have less restrictions in Rivian and other non-Andrastian countries. I was pointing out that Rivian has a large population of people who follow the Qun. We now know how the Qunari, followers of the Qun, treat their mages.

That isn't accurate to say they treat mages the same way the Qunari do, though. We know from the Genitivi written codex on Rivain that they won't be seperated from their seers, and the latest blog references Rivain as one of the places that has mages without Chantry or templar oversight:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That isn't accurate to say they treat mages the same way the Qunari do, though. We know from the Genitivi written codex on Rivain that they won't be seperated from their seers, and the latest blog references Rivain as one of the places that has mages without Chantry or templar oversight:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Yes, yes. That line keeps getting quoted. However, it doesn't mean anything since we don't know HOW they are controlled if at all. All we know is that the templars do not regulate mages in those countries. And, as I have said before, in at least two of those examples, the mages are the ones who are in control. The Keepers seem to be the leaders of the Dalish clans and Tevinter is a magocracy. That is something that Ferelden seems to be quite against due to the threat of blood magic.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That isn't accurate to say they treat mages the same way the Qunari do, though. We know from the Genitivi written codex on Rivain that they won't be seperated from their seers, and the latest blog references Rivain as one of the places that has mages without Chantry or templar oversight:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Yes, yes. That line keeps getting quoted.

I'm guessing by people who don't think oppression is an appropriate means of dealing with the issue of magic.

Zanallen wrote...

However, it doesn't mean anything since we don't know HOW they are controlled if at all. All we know is that the templars do not regulate mages in those countries. And, as I have said before, in at least two of those examples, the mages are the ones who are in control. The Keepers seem to be the leaders of the Dalish clans and Tevinter is a magocracy. That is something that Ferelden seems to be quite against due to the threat of blood magic.

They're highly respected in Rivain (as Genitivi admits), so I don't see why they would be controlled by anyone if people look to them for guidance. As for the Dalish clans, there's no proof they even condone blood magic, so I don't see why you'd use them as an example against the threat of blood magic. They made it clear that they typically descend from the nobility that ruled the Dales (in conversation with Lanaya) but even Lanaya was able to become First through her determination. There's no clear stipulation that mages are the only ones who can become Keepers or Firsts - merely that we can see how they have a society where mages and non-mages are living side by side.

There's no proof giving mages rights would lead to a magocracy or lead to an abuse of blood magic. As for Rivain, we know they have been respected and revered for centuries.  The mages aren't in control in Rivain, among the Chasind, or even in Haven, which is also an alternative Cult of Andraste that's been around for about 900 years. I don't see any proof that mages need to be controlled or imprisoned, especially with the Chantry's own history revealing that segregating them from society and putting them in prison had nothing to do with blood magic or abominations - it was all about a protest they held in a cathedral (from the History of the Circle codex).

[chunkyman]

I'm taking the Chantry down! I will side with whoever I need to in order to allow mages to be free.

[atheelogos]

Elfman wrote...

I second your proposal.

this

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm guessing by people who don't think oppression is an appropriate means of dealing with the issue of magic.

They're highly respected in Rivain (as Genitivi admits), so I don't see why they would be controlled by anyone if people look to them for guidance. As for the Dalish clans, there's no proof they even condone blood magic, so I don't see why you'd use them as an example against the threat of blood magic. They made it clear that they typically descend from the nobility that ruled the Dales (in conversation with Lanaya) but even Lanaya was able to become First through her determination. There's no clear stipulation that mages are the only ones who can become Keepers or Firsts - merely that we can see how they have a society where mages and non-mages are living side by side.

There's no proof giving mages rights would lead to a magocracy or lead to an abuse of blood magic. As for Rivain, we know they have been respected and revered for centuries.  The mages aren't in control in Rivain, among the Chasind, or even in Haven, which is also an alternative Cult of Andraste that's been around for about 900 years. I don't see any proof that mages need to be controlled or imprisoned, especially with the Chantry's own history revealing that segregating them from society and putting them in prison had nothing to do with blood magic or abominations - it was all about a protest they held in a cathedral (from the History of the Circle codex).

I assume it keeps getting quoted by people who are reading far too much from a quick line meant to forshadow the events of DA2.

So, the Rivaini seers aren't controlled in any way? What happens when one becomes an abomination? They regularly converse with spirits and allow themselves to be possessed. So, unless the Rivaini mages know some secret way to avoid being controlled by demons, I figure there would still be instances of seers becoming abominations. Also, the codex doesn't say that the Rivaini respect their seers. It says that they refuse to be parted with them.

Dalish: A society doesn't have to condone the use of blood magic for it to be a threat. The people of Ferelden mistrust mages due to the influence of the old Tevinter Imperium. The Imperium was controlled by mages, the head of which used blood magic. It isn't difficult to infer that Fereldens would be a little leery of any group that allows mages to rule over them. As for the Keepers and firsts only being mages...Every example we have seen has been a mage, so there really is no reason to believe otherwise.

And really, how many times are you going to bring up Haven? That village was an isolated cult that seemed to perform blood sacrifices and murdered outsiders. How is that evidence that mages should be freed? Hell, there was a group of blood mages in charge of a bunch of thieves in Denerim. Is that also evidence that mages should be allowed to do as they please?

And no, the history of the circle states quite clearly that the mages were placed in the circles as the result of lengthy negotiations by both parties. Also, you say it was a simple "protest in a cathedral". You fail to mention that these mages extinguished the sacred flames and barricaded themselves within the Grand Cathedral, the seat of the Divine who leads the whole of the church of Andraste. They had to expect repercussions.

The fact remains that in areas not dominated by the Chantry of Andraste or the Qun, mages hold the most power. Shamans lead the Chasind, Keepers the Dalish, Magisters the Imperium and the seers have some unknown role in Rivain.

[steelfire_dragon]

I'm afraid I can not give my staff to your cause.



that said, I wont give it to those bastards in the chantry either...



I'm to busy elsewhere in thedas to care about what happens in Kirkwall.



and the Antivian Crows send you their regards....

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

I assume it keeps getting quoted by people who are reading far too much from a quick line meant to forshadow the events of DA2.

It's a debate over the merits of the Chantry system within the world of DA, the same debate that people have on these threads over whether it's warranted or not.

Zanallen wrote...

So, the Rivaini seers aren't controlled in any way? What happens when one becomes an abomination? They regularly converse with spirits and allow themselves to be possessed. So, unless the Rivaini mages know some secret way to avoid being controlled by demons, I figure there would still be instances of seers becoming abominations. Also, the codex doesn't say that the Rivaini respect their seers. It says that they refuse to be parted with them.

You're talking about the difference between protecting the innocent and oppressing innocent people. If abominations could be killed long before the Order of Templars or the Chantry of Andraste ever came into existance, I don't see why it couldn't be done today.

And am I supposed to infer from their resistance against one of the most powerful religious instiutions in Thedas that the seers are hated by the people of Rivain, who seem to have no issue with them communing with spirits and being independent of the Chantry of Andraste and its Circles?

Zanallen wrote...

Dalish: A society doesn't have to condone the use of blood magic for it to be a threat. The people of Ferelden mistrust mages due to the influence of the old Tevinter Imperium. The Imperium was controlled by mages, the head of which used blood magic. It isn't difficult to infer that Fereldens would be a little leery of any group that allows mages to rule over them. As for the Keepers and firsts only being mages...Every example we have seen has been a mage, so there really is no reason to believe otherwise.

There's nothing to suggest this is the case when it's clearly said to be an issue of nobility, not magical talent. The people of Ferelden mistrust magic because of the Chantry, a point that's always made clear in Origins and Awakening. Justice even refers to them as "oppressors" of mages. Not every nation that tolerates mages will be like Tevinter. The Dales was a society with mages and non-mages, and it wasn't the Tevinter Imperium. We also have no reason to believe Arlathan was anything like Tevinter from the little information we have about them. And given how the Chantry spreads anti-mage propaganda, it's the reason why we see such differences between how mages are treated in Andrastian societies and in the alternative societies of Haven, the Dalish, the Chasind, and Rivain.

Zanallen wrote...

And really, how many times are you going to bring up Haven? That village was an isolated cult that seemed to perform blood sacrifices and murdered outsiders. How is that evidence that mages should be freed? Hell, there was a group of blood mages in charge of a bunch of thieves in Denerim. Is that also evidence that mages should be allowed to do as they please?

I'm not talking about their habits as a society, but the fact that mages were living alongside non-mages. For 900 years Haven stood, and abominations didn't tear it asunder despite the lack of templars and the Chantry of Andraste.

Zanallen wrote...

And no, the history of the circle states quite clearly that the mages were placed in the circles as the result of lengthy negotiations by both parties. Also, you say it was a simple "protest in a cathedral". You fail to mention that these mages extinguished the sacred flames and barricaded themselves within the Grand Cathedral, the seat of the Divine who leads the whole of the church of Andraste. They had to expect repercussions.

A completely peaceful protest. Nonviolent resistance. And you failed to mention that the Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral because of this peaceful protest.

Zanallen wrote...

The fact remains that in areas not dominated by the Chantry of Andraste or the Qun, mages hold the most power. Shamans lead the Chasind, Keepers the Dalish, Magisters the Imperium and the seers have some unknown role in Rivain.

Where does it say the shamans lead the Chasind tribes? The mages clearly weren't in charge of Haven, although a mage did preside over the local Chantry; Kolgrim was in power, and I didn't see any evidence that mages dominated the society of Haven over non-mages. We also have the Dalish clans, as it's addressed that typically it focuses on the descendants of the nobility of the Dales becoming Keepers, not mages.

[Hawke4555]

Yeah,down with the chantry.

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a debate over the merits of the Chantry system within the world of DA, the same debate that people have on these threads over whether it's warranted or not.

And an unsubstantiated bit of dialogue tacked onto the end of a post meant to drive interest in DA2 does little to bring actual concrete evidence into the debate.

You're talking about the difference between protecting the innocent and oppressing innocent people. If abominations could be killed long before the Order of Templars or the Chantry of Andraste ever came into existance, I don't see why it couldn't be done today.

The question is how effective other methods of prevention work in comparison to the Chantry method. And we have no information that answers that question.

And am I supposed to infer from their resistance against one of the most powerful religious instiutions in Thedas that the seers are hated by the people of Rivain, who seem to have no issue with them communing with spirits and being independent of the Chantry of Andraste and its Circles?

The Rivain codex states that most of the country are zealous followers of the Qun. Why would they all of a sudden drop their own religion in favor of the Chantry? And I never said they hated the seers. I said there is nothing that says they are incredibly revered or respected. Perhaps they serve a vital role in Rivaini society. They are called seers. Maybe they are used to predict the weather for sailing.

There's nothing to suggest this is the case when it's clearly said to be an issue of nobility, not magical talent. The people of Ferelden mistrust magic because of the Chantry, a point that's always made clear in Origins and Awakening. Justice even refers to them as "oppressors" of mages. Not every nation that tolerates mages will be like Tevinter. The Dales was a society with mages and non-mages, and it wasn't the Tevinter Imperium. We also have no reason to believe Arlathan was anything like Tevinter from the little information we have about them. And given how the Chantry spreads anti-mage propaganda, it's the reason why we see such differences between how mages are treated in Andrastian societies and in the alternative societies of Haven, the Dalish, the Chasind, and Rivain.

And the Chantry mistrusts magic because of the events surrounding the Tevinter Imperium, the first blight and the death of Andraste at the hands of....Mages.

All information that I have seen claims that the Keepers are all mages. And no, not every place that allows mages to run free will end up like Tevinter; however, the possibility is very real.

I'm not talking about their habits as a society, but the fact that mages were living alongside non-mages. For 900 years Haven stood, and abominations didn't tear it asunder despite the lack of templars and the Chantry of Andraste.

We have no idea of what really happened during the course of Haven's history. However, we do know that they went from people who swore to protect the ashes of Andraste to crazed cultists performing blood sacrifices and worshiping a dragon. Crazy people should not be used as an example of a functional society.

A completely peaceful protest. Nonviolent resistance. And you failed to mention that the Divine Ambrosia II wanted to declare an Exalted March on her own cathedral because of this peaceful protest.

Because they had taken over what is basically the seat of her power and snuffed out the sacred flames. It would be like protestors staging a sit in within the White House itself and not allowing the President to do his job.

Where does it say the shamans lead the Chasind tribes? The mages clearly weren't in charge of Haven, although a mage did preside over the local Chantry; Kolgrim was in power, and I didn't see any evidence that mages dominated the society of Haven over non-mages. We also have the Dalish clans, as it's addressed that typically it focuses on the descendants of the nobility of the Dales becoming Keepers, not mages.

That would be the Chasind codex. It states that shaman lead the Chasind tribes and that these shaman are mages supposedly taught by witches of the wild. And do we really know the relationship between Kolgrim and Eirik? The Reverend Father certainly had no problem ordering the members of his chantry to attack my Warden. And, as I said earlier, all Keepers and Firsts shown within the game are mages. Keeper is even a mage specialization.

[SkittlesKat96]

What if the Maker does exist though? Or do only the old Gods exist....

What if something bad actually did happen if mages were more free?



There are a lot of what ifs for me, although the chantry are a little bit on the shady/annoying side.