338 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyArea]

Harid wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Maelora wrote...

I played all six Origins, and my characters attitude towards the Chantry ranged from 'extreme dislike' to 'virulent hatred'.

Yeeeeeeah.... I even tried to play a Chantry-loving human, but Alistair put a stop to that:

Warden: Wasn't it nice of the Revered Mother to give us her blessing? The Chantry is great!
Alistair: They turn Templars into drug addicts. Drug addicts with really big swords.
Warden: .........that's not right. Someone should stop them.
Alistair: .........blessed art thou who exists in the sight of the Maker....

"Not my problem, that's the choice you make when you become a Templar."  was my non mage opinion on that.

Military grunts are sometimes forced to do horrible things, conversely I would not hate the entirety of the armed forces because of the actions of a few.

There are soldiers who have no choise. And there are lunatics who don't even want to have choise. They just want to slay innocent. To which group you think chantry's templars belong and to which King's army?

[Haasth]

This is preposterous! I thought I was finally rid of them completely. I had made a deal with King-Alistair to kick their butts out of MY Circle Tower. So two years later I return, trying to chase down Morrigan and what'da'ya'know? I return to MY Circle Tower only to find some pompous Templar telling me to keep MY hound on a leash and keep the Dalish woman outside.



TEMPLAR?! IN MY TOWER?!

[ObserverStatus]

Haasth wrote...

This is preposterous! I thought I was finally rid of them completely. I had made a deal with King-Alistair to kick their butts out of MY Circle Tower. So two years later I return, trying to chase down Morrigan and what'da'ya'know? I return to MY Circle Tower only to find some pompous Templar telling me to keep MY hound on a leash and keep the Dalish woman outside.

TEMPLAR?! IN MY TOWER?!

Yah, the Divine rejected Alistair's request.

[Nezahoo]

"Change is coming to the world"

"Change is what they need"

"Change is what sets em free"



Oh im so gonna put that Seeker lady to the flames , Mages and elfs deserves equal rights like everyone else.

[GreyArea]

Nezahoo wrote...

"Change is coming to the world"
"Change is what they need"
"Change is what sets em free"

Oh im so gonna put that Seeker lady to the flames , Mages and elfs deserves equal rights like everyone else.

Amen.

And good night. Going to call it a day.

[Rompa87]

Nezahoo wrote...
 Mages and elfs deserves equal rights like everyone else.

Oooh, well la-di-da. Aren't we the idealist, naive Champion of all things Right with not a single thought as to what comes next? :innocent:

Please... We have to be pragmatic about these things. Mages have, time and again, proven to be a danger to themselves and others. Even though the bad apples may be few and far between, they have the power to be devastating even on their own. No, a tight leash is needed to keep them in check. And who better to do it than our Boys in Plate?

As for the elves? Brutish thugs, animals even. Some clans have even resorted to gerilla warfare and banditry. Containment is the only choice. It's a dirty task, but it needs to be done

Modifié par Rompa87, 15 février 2011 - 08:52 .

[Itkovian]

Truly the evidence of the OP's claim is overwhelming.

Wait, what?

Not that I don't agree, but surely some evidence is required to make such a claim.

Personally, I like the chantry as a fictional construct. It's a very well designed religion, and I love the idea of the Chant of Light and the passages we've had the opportunity to read so far (and the Chanters, no vows of silence for them! *grin*). I also think it makes sense that something like the Chantry exists, and find it logical that most people believe in such, simply because the supernatural DOES exist in Thedas.

In short, people turn to the Chant not only to explain Bad Weather and disease and Bad People, but also actual tangible demons and magic. It becomes rather difficult to maintain a natural materialistic outlook in such an environment.

Of course, the truth is that all those things CAN be somewhat explained rationally without relying on a baseless religion (the fade and attendant phenomenon are part of nature after all)... but it would take a far greater effort to maintain an atheistic outlook. Hence why my characters tend to be religious (except perhaps some mages, who have a deeper understanding of the fade and such).

But anyway, I digress. In what way is the Chantry doing more harm than good?

It might be misleading people, certainly, though I think the nature of the fade to manifest things in accordance to people's belief probably means that Chantry leadership is not simply making things up. They probably truly believe what they preach, and see the Chantry as more than a means for controlling the population.

On the other hand, they do provide a tangible benefit through their militant arm: they safeguard society from mages. Of course, they do that by oppressing mages, but there's no denying that it does succeed rather well at this (despite sporadic outbreaks, mages are kept segregated and the general population is kept safe by the Chantry and its Templars).

So on that last count, would the general populace view the Chantry as doing more harm than good? Certainly not. So why would it be "thrown out" of Kirkwall?

Itkovian

[Nezahoo]

Rompa87 wrote...

Nezahoo wrote...
 Mages and elfs deserves equal rights like everyone else.

Oooh, well la-di-da. Aren't we the idealist, naive Champion of all things Right with not a single thought as to what comes next? :innocent:

Please... We have to be pragmatic about these things. Mages have, time and again, proven to be a danger to themselves and others. Even though the bad apples may be few and far between, they have the power to be devastating even on their own. No, a tight leash is needed to keep them in check. And who better to do it than our Boys in Plate?

As for the elves? Brutish thugs, animals even. Some clans have even resorted to gerilla warfare and banditry. Containment is the only choice. It's a dirty task, but it needs to be done

Im not gonna argue with you, Im gonna burn the Chantery to the ground if i can.
But seriuesly trying to insult me leads to noting.

[slumlord722]

The reason I keep coming back to the idea of projection is because it's the only thing I can think of that would make people want to actually topple the Chantry (specifically the Templars) given all we've learned about the game world and the danger of mages.



It's really clear that from an in-game standpoint, if referring to anything out of game is an unfair attack, the Chantry is seen by the general populace as a beneficial organization providing real services to people. Toppling it just makes no sense at all. Projecting.

[Taleroth]

slumlord722 wrote...

The reason I keep coming back to the idea of projection is because it's the only thing I can think of that would make people want to actually topple the Chantry (specifically the Templars) given all we've learned about the game world and the danger of mages.

And all we've seen in the game world implies that the Chantry's treatment is actually not entirely necessary.  There are dangers, but none so bad that they must all be enslaved or killed.  The worst problems with mages actually tend to be an indirect result of the oppression.

When you've got a class of people who turn destructive when their emotions get out of control, an atmosphere of terror is not helping.

Modifié par Taleroth, 15 février 2011 - 09:11 .

[Morroian]

slumlord722 wrote...

The reason I keep coming back to the idea of projection is because it's the only thing I can think of that would make people want to actually topple the Chantry (specifically the Templars) given all we've learned about the game world and the danger of mages. 

And if you've read the endless threads on this you know there are alternatives which aren't so oppressive.

slumlord722 wrote...

It's really clear that from an in-game standpoint, if referring to anything out of game is an unfair attack, the Chantry is seen by the general populace as a beneficial organization providing real services to people. Toppling it just makes no sense at all. Projecting.

Problem is they won't give up their power over mages.

[General Douchington]

Chantry Priest: All praise the Maker!
Hawke: You want to know what I think?
Chantry Priest: What?
Hawke: THERE'S NOTHING UP THERE.

[Nashiktal]

Uh, can I kill all mages in creative ways? Possibly after inhaling some lyrium dust?

[Rompa87]

Nezahoo wrote...

Rompa87 wrote...

Nezahoo wrote...
 Mages and elfs deserves equal rights like everyone else.

Oooh, well la-di-da. Aren't we the idealist, naive Champion of all things Right with not a single thought as to what comes next? :innocent:

Please... We have to be pragmatic about these things. Mages have, time and again, proven to be a danger to themselves and others. Even though the bad apples may be few and far between, they have the power to be devastating even on their own. No, a tight leash is needed to keep them in check. And who better to do it than our Boys in Plate?

As for the elves? Brutish thugs, animals even. Some clans have even resorted to gerilla warfare and banditry. Containment is the only choice. It's a dirty task, but it needs to be done

Im not gonna argue with you, Im gonna burn the Chantery to the ground if i can.
But seriuesly trying to insult me leads to noting.

I wasn't trying to insult you, and I apologize if you took offence. I must have seriously misjudged the vibe in this thread, and thought that it was simply some light hearted quipping rather than a serious discussion whether or not a fictional religious institution has a right to exist.

Again, a thousand apologies

[dtmoss]

bury the chantry! tired of all your rules and games!

Modifié par dtmoss, 15 février 2011 - 09:34 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Rompa87 wrote...

Nezahoo wrote...
 Mages and elfs deserves equal rights like everyone else.

Oooh, well la-di-da. Aren't we the idealist, naive Champion of all things Right with not a single thought as to what comes next? :innocent:

Please... We have to be pragmatic about these things. Mages have, time and again, proven to be a danger to themselves and others. Even though the bad apples may be few and far between, they have the power to be devastating even on their own. No, a tight leash is needed to keep them in check. And who better to do it than our Boys in Plate?

As for the elves? Brutish thugs, animals even. Some clans have even resorted to gerilla warfare and banditry. Containment is the only choice. It's a dirty task, but it needs to be done

Keeping the Elves subjugated is just a waste in my opinion. Elves have the same potential as humans to do things. Denying Elves rights, means less people to doing good things, and discovering new things. That and having them living in poverty, and squaller doesnt really help anyone in the least, it just causes more problems.
The Mages are awesome in that they know this, and treat Elves the same has Humans.

Hell! Orsino is an elf, and he's the first enchanter in Kirkwall. Mages are awesome. Thats all there is to it. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 15 février 2011 - 09:26 .

[Itkovian]

slumlord722 wrote...

The reason I keep coming back to the idea of projection is because it's the only thing I can think of that would make people want to actually topple the Chantry (specifically the Templars) given all we've learned about the game world and the danger of mages.

It's really clear that from an in-game standpoint, if referring to anything out of game is an unfair attack, the Chantry is seen by the general populace as a beneficial organization providing real services to people. Toppling it just makes no sense at all. Projecting.

I think that in many cases you are correct. Many people have an knee-jerk reaction to religion or a giant monolithic church (clearly the Chantry is meant to be an equivalent to the Catholic church), and reject it entirely without putting themselves in the position of the general population, and often of their own characters.

For example, why would, a Human Noble reject the Chantry? What evidence does he have that it's rubbish? To the contrary, he's got evidence that magic and the supernatural exist, so why not believe in The Maker? What would prompt one to be skeptical?

Of course, a more scholarly character might argue that the Chantry isn't really offering any evidence for its claims either, nor do any other religions we've seen so far. Except of course that The Warden produces the Urn of the Sacred Ashes, which can only be countered by a true scholar who understands the influence of Lyrium in the Temple.

Mind you, I think a true skeptical scholar would be perfectly correct in summarizing that, due to the pervasive influence of Fade Spirits in our dreams (and their predisposition to try and manifest our dreams), any divine revelation is likely suspect from the start and should be viewed with extreme skepticism. After all, it is quite probable that any and all non-delusional religious experiences (that is to say, not simple hallucinations or the product of hysteria) is simply due to Fade Spirits trying to manifest themselves based on the beliefs of those on the material world. In essence, the very "act" of having a strong belief in something can cause spirits to manifest themselves in accordance to those beliefs... a true skeptic would know to doubt the veracity of any such experiences.

In fact, the situation in Thedas is such that even a TRUE religious experience could probably not be distinguished from a fake one created by Fade Spirits. It's a pretty damning situation quite frankly, where you literally cannot trust anything. Thedas really needs someone to start applying the scientific method in their research, likely mages who can somehow probe the Fade and detect if things are the product of the Fade or actual divine manifestations.

But, of course, I find it very unlikely that any of our characters could be such scholarly skeptics, and it is far more likely that any adventurers in Thedas partake in one religion or another (except perhaps Magi, like Morrigan).

Thank you.

Itkovian

[Sable Rhapsody]

I the player know things are more complicated than just "burn the Chantry." But...I wanna play a Villain Protagonist. So bring on the torches. I'll keep the evil snickering and finger steepling in private.

[Maelora]

I'm killing every templar I can, dissing every sanctimonious preachy twit, just as in DAO.



I'd have gladly defiled the ashes if it didn't cost me Wynne. Seemed funny she gets so worked up about it.



Death to the Chantry!

[Maelora]

re: Wynne...



I'd have liked to have told her: They killed your apprentice? They stole your child? And you're still defending them?

[Maelora]

My characters...



Dwarves: None of that human nonsense for me, by the Ancestors!

Human Noble: I like some people in the Chantry. But I despise the Chantry itself. No sky pixies for me, thanks. No ignorance and hatred.

Dalish Archer: My gods are better than yours.

City Elf: All faiths are as bad as each other. But some humans in the Chantry are okay.

Mage Elf: Die, Andrastian scum! (unless Leliana is around...)

[Albatroz]

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the people who call the Chantry and the templars "religious zealots" are the same people who say "BURN! BURN! BURN! The world will not be filled with your lies!"