338 réponses à ce sujet

[Albatroz]

Burayan_Koga wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the people who call the Chantry and the templars "religious zealots" are the same people who say "BURN! BURN! BURN! The world will not be filled with your lies!"

No your not and I am partially to blame for that so I'm definitely re editing the topic to clear the issue.

It's not your fault. In a thread like thisthese thoughts are bound to come out.

I just think people are so vehemently against the Chantry for really only 2 reasons. Either a) IRL they're anti-religion and that's being carried over into their video game experience or being anti-Chantry is their way of rebelling against "the man." What if the game was set in the Teventir Imperium, where the mages are the oppressors? I'd be interested to see where everyone's loyaltys are then.

[Eclipse_9990]

The RustMonster wrote...

Burayan_Koga wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the people who call the Chantry and the templars "religious zealots" are the same people who say "BURN! BURN! BURN! The world will not be filled with your lies!"

No your not and I am partially to blame for that so I'm definitely re editing the topic to clear the issue.

It's not your fault. In a thread like thisthese thoughts are bound to come out.

I just think people are so vehemently against the Chantry for really only 2 reasons. Either a) IRL they're anti-religion and that's being carried over into their video game experience or being anti-Chantry is their way of rebelling against "the man." What if the game was set in the Teventir Imperium, where the mages are the oppressors? I'd be interested to see where everyone's loyaltys are then.

a) Thats not true. I believe in god, and I'm not anti-religion in general. Just the ones that subjugate people, and make them feel bad because their different. 
Well...Thats kind of true for me.. But its not as black, and white like that. I don't like the Chantry because I believe their wrong, and well.. They just seem shifty to me.. Like that have some kind of agenda.. I don't trust them. 

People aren't always easy to understand, don't pretend like everyones the same in this. 

[Albatroz]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the people who call the Chantry and the templars "religious zealots" are the same people who say "BURN! BURN! BURN! The world will not be filled with your lies!"

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

To allow a totalitarian ideology to grow in the midst of civilization is to give up your basic human rights. Any threat to freedom must be destroyed.

Aveline's quote comes to mind. "Protect what matters with everything you have. Or you'll have nothing. And deserve it."

I still fail to see how the Chantry is "evil." Despite popular belief here, it's not an undeniable fact. Whether or not their treatment of mages is "totalitarian" is up for debate. I think something that most people forget is that most mages we've talked to feel eitehr apathetic or positive to the Chantry's prescence. If people are upset about the Exalted Marches treating the Dalish and Qunari poorly, I'm pretty sure the Qunari have started holy wars themselves. As for the Dalish, while I can't be certain, I'm pretty sure that they probably would have attacked the humans eventually if the Chantry hadn't done so first. It's not a matter of who's right or wrong, it's about who did it first. 

[Albatroz]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Burayan_Koga wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the people who call the Chantry and the templars "religious zealots" are the same people who say "BURN! BURN! BURN! The world will not be filled with your lies!"

No your not and I am partially to blame for that so I'm definitely re editing the topic to clear the issue.

It's not your fault. In a thread like thisthese thoughts are bound to come out.

I just think people are so vehemently against the Chantry for really only 2 reasons. Either a) IRL they're anti-religion and that's being carried over into their video game experience or being anti-Chantry is their way of rebelling against "the man." What if the game was set in the Teventir Imperium, where the mages are the oppressors? I'd be interested to see where everyone's loyaltys are then.

a) Thats not true. I believe in god, and I'm not anti-religion in general. Just the ones that subjugate people, and make them feel bad because their different. 
Well...Thats kind of true for me.. But its not as black, and white like that. I don't like the Chantry because I believe their wrong, and well.. They just seem shifty to me.. Like that have some kind of agenda.. I don't trust them. 

People aren't always easy to understand, don't pretend like everyones the same in this. 

Yet you fit into one of the two groups. You don't trust the Chantry because they have the power. And I can guarantee you that there's a large group of people who fit into group A. I've seen numerous quotes from different people along the lines of "The Chantry should be destroyed, just like all other religions." I know not everyone will fit into these 2 groups, but I'd be willing to be the majority do.

[Eclipse_9990]

The RustMonster wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Burayan_Koga wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the people who call the Chantry and the templars "religious zealots" are the same people who say "BURN! BURN! BURN! The world will not be filled with your lies!"

No your not and I am partially to blame for that so I'm definitely re editing the topic to clear the issue.

It's not your fault. In a thread like thisthese thoughts are bound to come out.

I just think people are so vehemently against the Chantry for really only 2 reasons. Either a) IRL they're anti-religion and that's being carried over into their video game experience or being anti-Chantry is their way of rebelling against "the man." What if the game was set in the Teventir Imperium, where the mages are the oppressors? I'd be interested to see where everyone's loyaltys are then.

a) Thats not true. I believe in god, and I'm not anti-religion in general. Just the ones that subjugate people, and make them feel bad because their different. 
Well...Thats kind of true for me.. But its not as black, and white like that. I don't like the Chantry because I believe their wrong, and well.. They just seem shifty to me.. Like that have some kind of agenda.. I don't trust them. 

People aren't always easy to understand, don't pretend like everyones the same in this. 

Yet you fit into one of the two groups. You don't trust the Chantry because they have the power. And I can guarantee you that there's a large group of people who fit into group A. I've seen numerous quotes from different people along the lines of "The Chantry should be destroyed, just like all other religions." I know not everyone will fit into these 2 groups, but I'd be willing to be the majority do.

I don't "fit" into a group. I'm my own man with my own opinions/beliefs. I don't trust the chantry not because they have power, I dont trust them because of what they do with that power. I dont like how they think they're entitled to everything, I don't like how they control their minions, I don't like how they brainwash people, and I don't like how they'll destroy a country because they don't believe what they do. 

Not everyone is the same, humans are complex. I admit that there are alot of people who are mindless sheep who will follow the status quo no matter what. But not everyones like that, I most certainly am not like that. 
Also the dude who said "The Chantry should be destroyed, just like all other religions" thats just his opinion. Not everyone who's against the chantry believes this. I hate when people generalize. Not everyones the same.. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 15 février 2011 - 10:17 .

[Albatroz]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

I still fail to see how the Chantry is "evil." Despite popular belief here, it's not an undeniable fact. Whether or not their treatment of mages is "totalitarian" is up for debate. I think something that most people forget is that most mages we've talked to feel eitehr apathetic or positive to the Chantry's prescence. If people are upset about the Exalted Marches treating the Dalish and Qunari poorly, I'm pretty sure the Qunari have started holy wars themselves. As for the Dalish, while I can't be certain, I'm pretty sure that they probably would have attacked the humans eventually if the Chantry hadn't done so first. It's not a matter of who's right or wrong, it's about who did it first. 

1. Spiritual blackmail - the maker is disappointed in mankind, men deserve to be left in the dark after Andraste was burned at the stake (by a few men)
2. Moral superiority - The chantry is, of course, the only "correct" religion. Others have to be destroyed in Exalted Marches, so the chant of light is spread to all four corners of the world and the Maker will turn it into a paradise
3. Guilt complex - mankind is evil, demonstrated when Andraste was burned at the stake, and has to atone to the Maker

Qunari: same problem. That they have a totalitarian ideology too does not excuse the Chantry. Dalish: This is speculation, with no evidence in the game itself.

To me, it's about what is presented in the game. And the chantry religion is opposed to freedom and tolerance. As such, it could be labeled "evil". Its love is conditional - unless you do or believe as they say, you are the enemy.

If those are your conditions for the Chantry being "evil" then you must not have a very high opinion of religion in general. All religions are going to say "We're the right one," and most aren't going to say, "Everything in life right now is fine and dandy. You don't have to do anything to get into paradise, you're already there." And once again, their opposition to "freedom and tolerance" is entirely subjective. If mages were free to do as they wish, how well would the rest of the nation go? Just look at the Teventir Imperium to get your answer. Slavery, constant war with the qunari... sounds like a great place to live.

[Rimfrost]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

To allow a totalitarian ideology to grow in the midst of civilization is to give up your basic human rights. Any threat to freedom must be destroyed.

Aveline's quote comes to mind. "Protect what matters with everything you have. Or you'll have nothing. And deserve it."

Well said!

[yoshibb]

The chantry reminds me that there are ideas that a really good in theory but then people get a hold of them and they run completely out of control.

Example:

Protecting people from crazy mages trying to take over the world: good idea

Enslaving the whole mage population: bad idea

[Albatroz]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

I don't "fit" into a group. I'm my own man with my own opinions/beliefs. I don't trust the chantry not because they have power, I dont trust them because of what they do with that power. I dont like how they think they're entitled to everything, I don't like how they control their minions, I don't like how they brainwash people, and I don't like how they'll destroy a country because they don't believe what they do. 

Not everyone is the same, humans are complex. I admit that there are alot of people who are mindless sheep who will follow the status quo no matter what. But not everyones like that, I most certainly am not like that. 
Also the dude who said "The Chantry should be destroyed, just like all other religions" thats just his opinion. Not everyone who's against the chantry believes this. I hate when people generalize. Not everyones the same.. 

Look, I'm not trying to insult anyone here, and I know you don't all agree about the subject for the same exact reason. But using what I've observed, this is the generalization I've been able to make, and I think it's pretty accurate. Most people, maybe not you, but most people who are anti-Chantry seem to be so because of one of the 2 reasons I listed, judging from what I've read in their posts. I'm not making random speculation, I'm taking what I'm giving and making an educated hypothesis about the subject. 

[Albatroz]

yoshibb wrote...

The chantry reminds me that there are ideas that a really good in theory but then people get a hold of them and they run completely out of control.
Example:
Protecting people from crazy mages trying to take over the world: good idea
Enslaving the whole mage population: bad idea

The mages are not "enslaved." They are free to do as they wish within the tower, and if you think about your interatctions with the mages, the majority are perfectly happy with how their lives are. Also, if a mage proves themselves responsible, they're allowed to leave! Look at Wynne, Finn, the botanist lady, and if you read The Stolen Throne, Wilhelm. It's really not that bad of a situation to be in.

[NKKKK]

The Templars need to be separated and have them rule themselves in their own order.



A true separation of Church and State.

[Morroian]

The RustMonster wrote...

The mages are not "enslaved." 

The tranquil are essentially lobotomised slaves.

The RustMonster wrote...
They are free to do as they wish within the tower, and if you think about your interatctions with the mages, the majority are perfectly happy with how their lives are. Also, if a mage proves themselves responsible, they're allowed to leave! 

A gilded cage is still a cage. And from the lore and all the background bits the treatment of the mages is largely dependant on the templars at the particular tower and Greagoir was clearly more liberal than others.

[yoshibb]

The RustMonster wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The chantry reminds me that there are ideas that a really good in theory but then people get a hold of them and they run completely out of control.
Example:
Protecting people from crazy mages trying to take over the world: good idea
Enslaving the whole mage population: bad idea

The mages are not "enslaved." They are free to do as they wish within the tower, and if you think about your interatctions with the mages, the majority are perfectly happy with how their lives are. Also, if a mage proves themselves responsible, they're allowed to leave! Look at Wynne, Finn, the botanist lady, and if you read The Stolen Throne, Wilhelm. It's really not that bad of a situation to be in.

It's not awful, but it's not really the best idea either. Wynne also had a child that she never got to see again. They aren't whipping mages and making them build towers but the situation isn't ideal either. There's people constantly watching you, you have no real family, you can't leave the tower, you're forced to obey the chantry or have your emotions taken away. I mean, there's a reason Isolde didn't want to give her son away to the tower. It's not awful but it's not ideal either. How would you feel if you were born a certain way and because of that you were taken away from your parents and locked away from the world?

[AlexXIV]

I wouldn't have that much of a problem if the mages were voluntarily in the tower. Fact is they don't have a choice. They are kept on a leash because of who they are. No amount of words can justify this crime. They are not crazy people who don't know what they are doing and they are no criminals. There is no moral base to do what the Chantry is doing, and neither is there one for people who justify or support it. It's inhumane, period. I don't say I don't understand why people would be scared of mages. but to give up principles which define you as a human being because of this is actually worse than what any mage could do.

He who fights with monsters might take care he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 février 2011 - 10:42 .

[Junri]

The Circle Tower isn't that bad. It pretty much gives mages a home base to share the ideas and have access to a very larger library. Its fairly cushy and warm as well. I can understand why the Templars and the Chantry feel the way they do about magic. Honestly, the only reason why the Qunari haven't overrun Thedas is because of the Exalted Marches organized by the Chantry. As a mage I rather be ruled by the Chantry then be conquered by a race that leashes their mages. At least I have the right to study magic and not be treated as sub-human.The Chantry doesn't give total freedom, but the freedom it gives at least prevents nothing bad from going wrong.

Modifié par Junri, 15 février 2011 - 10:55 .

[NKKKK]

Burayan_Koga wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

The Templars need to be separated and have them rule themselves in their own order.

A true separation of Church and State.

This is what I've been saying all along but I don't believe the Templars have a place in Thedas, the Circle of Magi can take care of those responsabilities!

Templars are people with a set of abalities, if you're saying they don't have a place in Thedas, you're talking about genocide and burning of informaition. You're not helping your case.

Templars are pretty opressed as well, the family thing is strict.


I believe Templars and Mages should exist as a sort of Yin and Yang. Indepedent of each other and the Chantry.

[Albatroz]

yoshibb wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The chantry reminds me that there are ideas that a really good in theory but then people get a hold of them and they run completely out of control.
Example:
Protecting people from crazy mages trying to take over the world: good idea
Enslaving the whole mage population: bad idea

The mages are not "enslaved." They are free to do as they wish within the tower, and if you think about your interatctions with the mages, the majority are perfectly happy with how their lives are. Also, if a mage proves themselves responsible, they're allowed to leave! Look at Wynne, Finn, the botanist lady, and if you read The Stolen Throne, Wilhelm. It's really not that bad of a situation to be in.

It's not awful, but it's not really the best idea either. Wynne also had a child that she never got to see again. They aren't whipping mages and making them build towers but the situation isn't ideal either. There's people constantly watching you, you have no real family, you can't leave the tower, you're forced to obey the chantry or have your emotions taken away. I mean, there's a reason Isolde didn't want to give her son away to the tower. It's not awful but it's not ideal either. How would you feel if you were born a certain way and because of that you were taken away from your parents and locked away from the world?

Interestingly enough I'm writing a book roughly about that subject, but that's neither here nor there. The way I see this in a modern analog would be if the gov't took a family aside after the birth of a child, and said to the parents. "Look, I know this will be hard for you to understand. We've been able to determine that this particular child has roughly a 50% chance to have an extreme psychogical disorder that turns himself into an extreme serial killer. We can let you keep him and live with the consequences of whatever happens, or we can take him to a facility where we'll give him special treatments that drastically reduce the chances of this happening, and he'll be largely satisfied with his life. If the treatements don't work, we have a group of people on site to take care of any problems that arise." This may not seem right. It's almost guaranteed that the parents would keep their child if given the choice, and that child may never have a problem in his life. But if he does turn out to go crazy and kill people, others will look at their gov't and ask, "You knew this was possible! Why didn't you do anything to stop it?" It's a lose-lose for the gov't, I'll admit it. People are either pissed because they took kids who may not need their help, or they're pissed because the gov't didn't stop a disaster they knew was a distinct possibility. There's no way to make everyone possible, which is why it's a conflict that exists in the DA universe. But I personally feel that when one puts aside any personal biases against relgion or "the man" it makes sense to make the sacrifice to keep the nation and the innocent people safe.

[NKKKK]

Burayan_Koga wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Burayan_Koga wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

The Templars need to be separated and have them rule themselves in their own order.

A true separation of Church and State.

This is what I've been saying all along but I don't believe the Templars have a place in Thedas, the Circle of Magi can take care of those responsabilities!

Templars are people with a set of abalities, if you're saying they don't have a place in Thedas, you're talking about genocide and burning of informaition. You're not helping your case.

Templars are pretty opressed as well, the family thing is strict.


I believe Templars and Mages should exist as a sort of Yin and Yang. Indepedent of each other and the Chantry.

No I'm saying they should be disbanded!

Uh-huh, and if they refuse to go, or if people continue being Templars anyways? Just by having the abilities?

[cihimi]

This thread will not end well.