338 réponses à ce sujet

[Overlord Zakaru]

Slave: a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person
Oppression: to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power.

Sounds like what the Chantry does to mages. If one is to be enslaved then one must fight for thier natural rights, for their freedom.

Anders and Wynne were not under Templar watch, and they never went on a killing spree.

Templars tend to be overly zelous and only fallow the orders given to theme by the Chantry.  However Templars are as much slaves to the Chantry as the Mages.  Templars are forced to injest lyrium, causing an addiction.  The Chantry only provides this if the Templars do what they're told.

Freeing both groups would be for the best, the Templars would be a great police force (as previously mentioned) and Mages could be free to go and live their lives.

I'm off to get my sword and shield.  Lets go after the Chantry leaders!   HAHAHAHAHA!!!

[ObserverStatus]

My Characters:

Human Mage:  Privately he believes that the modern Chantry is a sick parody of what it should be and has become nothing but a tool for it's leaders to maintain power.  However, he maintains good relations with them in public, recognizing that they can be useful to him at times, like when he turned the Grand Cleric against Loghain in the Landsmeet.

City Elf Warrior:  While recognizing corruption at the top, he feels that any other group would be just as bad if it had as much power. He sees the Chantry's influence as mostly being positive.

Dwarf Noble Rogue:  His only god is the murder knife, which often puts him at odds with the Chantry.

Modifié par bobobo878, 16 février 2011 - 12:13 .

[NKKKK]

Burayan_Koga wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Burayan_Koga wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Burayan_Koga wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

The Templars need to be separated and have them rule themselves in their own order.

A true separation of Church and State.

This is what I've been saying all along but I don't believe the Templars have a place in Thedas, the Circle of Magi can take care of those responsabilities!

Templars are people with a set of abalities, if you're saying they don't have a place in Thedas, you're talking about genocide and burning of informaition. You're not helping your case.

Templars are pretty opressed as well, the family thing is strict.


I believe Templars and Mages should exist as a sort of Yin and Yang. Indepedent of each other and the Chantry.

No I'm saying they should be disbanded!

Uh-huh, and if they refuse to go, or if people continue being Templars anyways? Just by having the abilities?

You didn't waste time replying while I was still editing that post!

There's no proof of that. Considering Alistair, The Warden and Hawke can be templars without Lyrium.

Modifié par NKKKK, 16 février 2011 - 12:20 .

[yoshibb]

The RustMonster wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The chantry reminds me that there are ideas that a really good in theory but then people get a hold of them and they run completely out of control.
Example:
Protecting people from crazy mages trying to take over the world: good idea
Enslaving the whole mage population: bad idea

The mages are not "enslaved." They are free to do as they wish within the tower, and if you think about your interatctions with the mages, the majority are perfectly happy with how their lives are. Also, if a mage proves themselves responsible, they're allowed to leave! Look at Wynne, Finn, the botanist lady, and if you read The Stolen Throne, Wilhelm. It's really not that bad of a situation to be in.

It's not awful, but it's not really the best idea either. Wynne also had a child that she never got to see again. They aren't whipping mages and making them build towers but the situation isn't ideal either. There's people constantly watching you, you have no real family, you can't leave the tower, you're forced to obey the chantry or have your emotions taken away. I mean, there's a reason Isolde didn't want to give her son away to the tower. It's not awful but it's not ideal either. How would you feel if you were born a certain way and because of that you were taken away from your parents and locked away from the world?

Interestingly enough I'm writing a book roughly about that subject, but that's neither here nor there. The way I see this in a modern analog would be if the gov't took a family aside after the birth of a child, and said to the parents. "Look, I know this will be hard for you to understand. We've been able to determine that this particular child has roughly a 50% chance to have an extreme psychogical disorder that turns himself into an extreme serial killer. We can let you keep him and live with the consequences of whatever happens, or we can take him to a facility where we'll give him special treatments that drastically reduce the chances of this happening, and he'll be largely satisfied with his life. If the treatements don't work, we have a group of people on site to take care of any problems that arise." This may not seem right. It's almost guaranteed that the parents would keep their child if given the choice, and that child may never have a problem in his life. But if he does turn out to go crazy and kill people, others will look at their gov't and ask, "You knew this was possible! Why didn't you do anything to stop it?" It's a lose-lose for the gov't, I'll admit it. People are either pissed because they took kids who may not need their help, or they're pissed because the gov't didn't stop a disaster they knew was a distinct possibility. There's no way to make everyone possible, which is why it's a conflict that exists in the DA universe. But I personally feel that when one puts aside any personal biases against relgion or "the man" it makes sense to make the sacrifice to keep the nation and the innocent people safe.

Like I said, I think it's a good idea in theory. First of all, the mages aren't serial killers. They don't have urges to kill people, they just have powers that they don't understand. They have consciences, they know right from wrong. What I'd be more understanding of is some sort of schooling. Don't cut them completely off from family, don't take away all their natural rights. Teach them how to control their powers and then let them go. If a mage is crazy you should be able to tell early on. Mages are people, they just happen to be people with powers. They will turn out good and bad and I have no problem with putting them into a boarding school like place and then making sure they don't turn into killing machines.

But there's no reason for the forced indoctrination and confinement. There's no reason to treat them like they're demons. If a mage turns into an abomination, then the templars have every right to deal with them as the law says. You're just asking for trouble though if you take a kid away, lock him away in a tower, and then tell him what a horrible thing he is for being born different. You just can't do that and not expect a good portion of them to rebel.

[Albatroz]

Overlord Zakaru wrote...

Slave: a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person
Oppression: to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power.

Sounds like what the Chantry does to mages. If one is to be enslaved then one must fight for thier natural rights, for their freedom.

Except that no responsible mage is "entirely under the domination" of the Chantry. They're free to do what they want in the Tower, and if they prove themselves responsible enough THEY CAN LEAVE for the right reason.

Anders and Wynne were not under Templar watch, and they never went on a killing spree.

So 2 examples of people who didn't go crazy is enough to stop the whole system? What about all the rogue mages and blood mages you did find killing people? Plus, I have a feeling we'll be dealing with a very different Anders in DAII

Templars tend to be overly zelous and only fallow the orders given to theme by the Chantry.  However Templars are as much slaves to the Chantry as the Mages.  Templars are forced to injest lyrium, causing an addiction.  The Chantry only provides this if the Templars do what they're told.

No one forces anybody to be a templar. People are free to join if they feel that is there calling (or if their parents send them there, which is no fault of the Chantry). And seriously, templars are over zealous but not the mages who who use their power to dominate others aren't?

Freeing both groups would be for the best, the Templars would be a great police force (as previously mentioned) and Mages could be free to go and live their lives.

I'm off to get my sword and shield.  Lets go after the Chantry leaders!   HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Free mages would result in just as many incidents of abominations and blood mages as confined mages, if not more. If the templars either weren't there with them or weren't there at all, the mages would do much more damage. Sure, SOME mages may live perfectly normal, happy lives outside of the tower. Heck, even the majority of them may do so. But when disaster strikes, (disaster that the Chantry know is a completely viable possibility to happen anywhere a mage is) and the Chantry doesn't or can't stop it, then they're to blame. It's a darned if you darned if you don't scenario, but I think haven't the Chantry control the mages is ultimately better for everyone.

Modifié par The RustMonster, 16 février 2011 - 12:25 .

[Albatroz]

yoshibb wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Interestingly enough I'm writing a book roughly about that subject, but that's neither here nor there. The way I see this in a modern analog would be if the gov't took a family aside after the birth of a child, and said to the parents. "Look, I know this will be hard for you to understand. We've been able to determine that this particular child has roughly a 50% chance to have an extreme psychogical disorder that turns himself into an extreme serial killer. We can let you keep him and live with the consequences of whatever happens, or we can take him to a facility where we'll give him special treatments that drastically reduce the chances of this happening, and he'll be largely satisfied with his life. If the treatements don't work, we have a group of people on site to take care of any problems that arise." This may not seem right. It's almost guaranteed that the parents would keep their child if given the choice, and that child may never have a problem in his life. But if he does turn out to go crazy and kill people, others will look at their gov't and ask, "You knew this was possible! Why didn't you do anything to stop it?" It's a lose-lose for the gov't, I'll admit it. People are either pissed because they took kids who may not need their help, or they're pissed because the gov't didn't stop a disaster they knew was a distinct possibility. There's no way to make everyone possible, which is why it's a conflict that exists in the DA universe. But I personally feel that when one puts aside any personal biases against relgion or "the man" it makes sense to make the sacrifice to keep the nation and the innocent people safe.

Like I said, I think it's a good idea in theory. First of all, the mages aren't serial killers. They don't have urges to kill people, they just have powers that they don't understand. They have consciences, they know right from wrong. What I'd be more understanding of is some sort of schooling. Don't cut them completely off from family, don't take away all their natural rights. Teach them how to control their powers and then let them go. If a mage is crazy you should be able to tell early on. Mages are people, they just happen to be people with powers. They will turn out good and bad and I have no problem with putting them into a boarding school like place and then making sure they don't turn into killing machines.

But there's no reason for the forced indoctrination and confinement. There's no reason to treat them like they're demons. If a mage turns into an abomination, then the templars have every right to deal with them as the law says. You're just asking for trouble though if you take a kid away, lock him away in a tower, and then tell him what a horrible thing he is for being born different. You just can't do that and not expect a good portion of them to rebel.

By the serial killer analogy I mean being possessed by a demon, not the mage literally being a serial killer. An uneducated mage has an extremely high risk of doing something wrong and becoming an abomination. Just look at Connor. Even an educated mage can still accidentally become possesed, willingly become posessed for power (Uldred), or willingly accept a spirit but accidentally turn into an abomination (Anders). If the Chantry just took in mages, taught them magic, then through them loose on the world, it would probably be more dangerous than if the mage was uneducated. To keep both of these results from happening, the best solution would be for the Chantry to take the mages, educate them on how to use their gift, and then keep them in the tower where both they and the non-magical public are the most safe from each other.

[TJPags]

Ahhh, the mage v chantry discussion.

I'll avoid that, beyond mentioning I have no problem with locking mages in towers.

However, IMO, religion and politics should never mix.  For that reason alone, I'd support doing away with the Chantry as a power.

[mesmerizedish]

Overlord Zakaru wrote...

Slave: a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person
Oppression: to burden with cruel or unjust impositions or restraints; subject to a burdensome or harsh exercise of authority or power.

Sounds like what the Chantry does to mages. If one is to be enslaved then one must fight for thier natural rights, for their freedom.

...

Mages fighting for their rights and freedom would just prove to everyone how dangerous they are. People aren't likely to look kindly on a Circle Tower going rogue and slaughtering every Templar there. It doesn't matter if they're actually oppressed or not.

I remember in Awakening, I got ****y with Wynne because she was all "It's not the right time, this isn't the way, blah blah blah." Really, Wynne? You're such a goddamn apologist. When people said that about slaves in the US, they were RACISTS. Why should ANYONE have to wait for their freedom, or to get it the "right" way? But, all the same, look what happened in the US. Civil war, a nation divided, and over a century and a half of resentment.

You have to consider the implications. You can't say "mages should fight for their freedom," unless you're prepared to bring the Chantry's entire sphere of influence into the Thedas version of a World War. No matter who won, everyone would lose. If the Chantry won, they'd exert even greater force on the faithful, and if the mages won, I have no doubt that a new Tevinter would spring up somewhere, if not everywhere. And then there are the countless thousands who would lose their lives.

Sometimes, it's worth it. The Civil War was worth it. There could be no other outcome there. And the state dealt with the fallout as best it could. But in the case of the Chantry and mages, I'm not sure that anyone could say that war was worth it, not even the victors.

[Gezol1]

The RustMonster wrote...

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the people who call the Chantry and the templars "religious zealots" are the same people who say "BURN! BURN! BURN! The world will not be filled with your lies!"

No, you're not. Truth be told, these threads have mostly had the effect of making me increasingly pro-Chantry, to the point that the only way I'm not siding with the Chantry/Templar side against the mage rebellion in my main playthrough is if the Chantry/Templar side is really, really bad. Like, slavery-and-genocide level bad, and I'm pretty sure they aren't going to be. All the bloodthirsty fantasies that get posted here about killing every templar (really? people like Ser Otto, too?), burning the Chantry to the ground, and ruling over everyone with blood magic pretty much just prove the exact opposite point that the pro-mage side is trying to argue, if you ask me.

The Chantry may be a flawed institution (like every other human institution), but they sure beat the hell out of what they replaced. Seriously, doesn't anyone remember the whole scene with Caladrius in DA:O? The Tevinter Imperium, from what we've seen of it, is something much, much worse than anything that exists in the countries where the Chantry is dominant. If you're against oppression and inequality, the Chantry represents a drastic improvement over what was there before them in that regard, and I'd have to be really damn convinced that a successful mage rebellion wasn't going to lead to anything even remotely like Tevinter for me to consider siding with it. Somehow, I doubt that's going to be the case, since I doubt Orsino or whoever is leading the mage rebellion is an uncorruptible saint, which is pretty much what it would require, I think.

[yoshibb]

The RustMonster wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Interestingly enough I'm writing a book roughly about that subject, but that's neither here nor there. The way I see this in a modern analog would be if the gov't took a family aside after the birth of a child, and said to the parents. "Look, I know this will be hard for you to understand. We've been able to determine that this particular child has roughly a 50% chance to have an extreme psychogical disorder that turns himself into an extreme serial killer. We can let you keep him and live with the consequences of whatever happens, or we can take him to a facility where we'll give him special treatments that drastically reduce the chances of this happening, and he'll be largely satisfied with his life. If the treatements don't work, we have a group of people on site to take care of any problems that arise." This may not seem right. It's almost guaranteed that the parents would keep their child if given the choice, and that child may never have a problem in his life. But if he does turn out to go crazy and kill people, others will look at their gov't and ask, "You knew this was possible! Why didn't you do anything to stop it?" It's a lose-lose for the gov't, I'll admit it. People are either pissed because they took kids who may not need their help, or they're pissed because the gov't didn't stop a disaster they knew was a distinct possibility. There's no way to make everyone possible, which is why it's a conflict that exists in the DA universe. But I personally feel that when one puts aside any personal biases against relgion or "the man" it makes sense to make the sacrifice to keep the nation and the innocent people safe.

Like I said, I think it's a good idea in theory. First of all, the mages aren't serial killers. They don't have urges to kill people, they just have powers that they don't understand. They have consciences, they know right from wrong. What I'd be more understanding of is some sort of schooling. Don't cut them completely off from family, don't take away all their natural rights. Teach them how to control their powers and then let them go. If a mage is crazy you should be able to tell early on. Mages are people, they just happen to be people with powers. They will turn out good and bad and I have no problem with putting them into a boarding school like place and then making sure they don't turn into killing machines.

But there's no reason for the forced indoctrination and confinement. There's no reason to treat them like they're demons. If a mage turns into an abomination, then the templars have every right to deal with them as the law says. You're just asking for trouble though if you take a kid away, lock him away in a tower, and then tell him what a horrible thing he is for being born different. You just can't do that and not expect a good portion of them to rebel.

By the serial killer analogy I mean being possessed by a demon, not the mage literally being a serial killer. An uneducated mage has an extremely high risk of doing something wrong and becoming an abomination. Just look at Connor. Even an educated mage can still accidentally become possesed, willingly become posessed for power (Uldred), or willingly accept a spirit but accidentally turn into an abomination (Anders). If the Chantry just took in mages, taught them magic, then through them loose on the world, it would probably be more dangerous than if the mage was uneducated. To keep both of these results from happening, the best solution would be for the Chantry to take the mages, educate them on how to use their gift, and then keep them in the tower where both they and the non-magical public are the most safe from each other.

Connor was uneducated, so that's what I mean about teaching them.Uldred was a power hungry mage that took advantage of his peers wanting freedom, not unlike what every other evil character does, magic or no.Anders has been running from the Chantry his whole life because he didn't want to be forced to live in a tower.

All these things could've been avoided if the Chantry wasn't so crazy about keeping mages locked away. And if the best possible solution was to lock up all potential killers, then everyone should be locked up. Everybody who has ever been born has the possibility of being a killer. You cannot stop them all, it's going to happen. But you can limit the damage by not being such a sworn enemy of mages. How likely is a rebellion to happen if you were to handle the mages like I suggested.

Evil mage: We should rise up and kill our oppressors!
Mage 1:  Why? They're not really oppressing us, we're just going to school.
Mage 2: And it's almost parents weekend 

Ok maybe it's not like that exactly but you get the point. Plus, how you teach someone can also help them. Which is more effective of teaching? 'Don't do that cause I said so and it's bad' or 'don't do that cause you'll get yourself killed and possibly hurt your loved ones.' 

Modifié par yoshibb, 16 février 2011 - 01:00 .

[Albatroz]

 Alrighty folks. I know it's not the best, but it's the best I can do. For anyone who wants it, I made a pro-Chantray banner! Show your support for the greater good of all of Thedas by sporting one of these in your sig! And if anyone who can actually make one that looks professional, feel free!

[Eternal Phoenix]

The RustMonster wrote...

 Alrighty folks. I know it's not the best, but it's the best I can do. For anyone who wants it, I made a pro-Chantray banner! Show your support for the greater good of all of Thedas by sporting one of these in your sig! And if anyone who can actually make one that looks professional, feel free!

HELL YES MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 EPIC TEMPLAR SUPPORTS THIS EPICNESS!!!!!! FINALLY!!! DEATH TO THE SISSY MAGES!!!!

[JJDrakken]

I see in my ordained absence, the malificar are running rampant again.

Again you scream for death & blood, we Templars just wish to protect & safeguard.  Yet we are hated? Is it my fault you have the ability to turn into wanton machine of death & sorrow? No it's not, it is our job to protect & make sure this doesn't happen, through education & if need be force.

We Templars are the brave souls, the light to stop abominations, we go into our duty knowing what we do can & will kill us.  We imbue lyrium, know it will eventually ruin us, as the Taint ruins a Grey Warden.  We do this with Bravery & Honor, we do this protect those around us.

Mages are born with magic, they are beacons for demons & abuse.  We try & help you out, try & keep them from running amok amongst the populace, scaring & eventually causing anger & hatred.  We teach, but as I see even this is not enough, for there still screams for death.

Even Anders before diluted by a spirit that has been corrupted in him knew this, we have reports of the conversation the Hero of Ferelden, the Warden Commander in front of a Chantry no less, with Wynne of the Circle, he even felt what you are all doing was wrong.  Yet you scream for blood & death, we seek to protect & guide.

Who are the madmen & oppressors again?


JJ

[Eternal Phoenix]

Yes my Templar brothers have arrived. I thought I was alone here.

[JJDrakken]

Elton John is dead wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

 Alrighty folks. I know it's not the best, but it's the best I can do. For anyone who wants it, I made a pro-Chantray banner! Show your support for the greater good of all of Thedas by sporting one of these in your sig! And if anyone who can actually make one that looks professional, feel free!

HELL YES MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 EPIC TEMPLAR SUPPORTS THIS EPICNESS!!!!!! FINALLY!!! DEATH TO THE SISSY MAGES!!!!

We must not stoop to thier level brother Templar, We do not scream for blood, show them we are better then this, we are the Stalwarts of the Chantry & the protectors of the people, let us find a more educated solution to this matter, before blood is spilt.


JJ

[Eternal Phoenix]

JJDrakken wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

 Alrighty folks. I know it's not the best, but it's the best I can do. For anyone who wants it, I made a pro-Chantray banner! Show your support for the greater good of all of Thedas by sporting one of these in your sig! And if anyone who can actually make one that looks professional, feel free!

HELL YES MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 EPIC TEMPLAR SUPPORTS THIS EPICNESS!!!!!! FINALLY!!! DEATH TO THE SISSY MAGES!!!!

We must not stoop to thier level brother Templar, We do not scream for blood, show them we are better then this, we are the Stalwarts of the Chantry & the protectors of the people, let us find a more educated solution to this matter, before blood is spilt.


JJ

Aye but I have had to cut down Templar brothers who were reaminated through blood magic...having to cut down a brother...words can just not describe this.

[Zanallen]

Ugh, the extrapolation. It makes my brain hurt.

[JJDrakken]

We still shouldn't de-evolve to thier anger, Stand above show your fellow Templars you are truley one of us!

JJ

[Eternal Phoenix]

http://social.bioware.com/group/3695/



Join The Templars!

[Albatroz]

Elton John is dead wrote...

http://social.bioware.com/group/3695/

Join The Templars!

I'm proud to be a templar!

Modifié par The RustMonster, 16 février 2011 - 01:33 .

[Riona45]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Destroy the Chantry and you create a power vacuum for a more oppressive organization.

Don't you think that's a cop-out?

[Albatroz]

Burayan_Koga wrote...

I started this thread to unite those who believe that the Chantry should be removed from power over people, not to debate over issue. For those who don't agree then go to the other thread that opposes this idea.

Sorry, but with a topic like this you're going to spark debate, and frankly this is probably a more interesting thread because of it. Nothing's more boring than:

OP: The chantry sucks.
Commentor 1: I agree
Com 2: So true.
Com 3: Yeah, the templars can eat it.
Com 4: Can I haz cheeseburger?
Stanley Woo: Stay on topic guys.

[JJDrakken]

-chuckles-



JJ