457 réponses à ce sujet

[stephen1493]

Rake21 wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Kids are too damn sheltered these days.

The Shredder died at the end of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and he came back for the sequel. Spock died and came back in the next movie. Wulfgar went to the Abyss and came back. Emperor Palpatine has a couple of clones. A bunch of characters who died in Baldur's Gate came back in Baldur's Gate II. Aribeth always dies after Neverwinter Nights no matter what you do. Doctor Wily keeps coming back no matter how many times he explodes. Sherlock Holmes came back after apparently falling off a cliff. Freddy and Jason don't die no matter how many times they're killed. Imhotep was resurrected again for the Mummy II.

Leaving loopholes to bring characters back for the sequel isn't exactly a new trope. People really ought to be used to it.

you do realize that in none of those examples was it advertised that our choices as to what happens to the characters was carrying over right...If the writers were simply writing a stand alone sequel then write it however you want and bring back  Jory possessed by a desiree demon for all anyone cares...but advertising a save game transfer and telling us our decisions matter seems disconnected from telling that all the endings are meaningless...

Well, couldn't the writers put in a few different ways he ended up alive, a Grey Warden, posessed by Justice/Vengence, and in Kirkwall?  And then, based on your save import, have one of those explanations be the one entered in for your unique playthrough?

People here are upset over the epilouges being spawned from rumor.  There's no specualtion over how it could have worked out.

[stephen1493]

Harid wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

Harid wrote...

Veex wrote...

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

so you evade my point? see the epilogues havent mattered since awakening

I don't think you're doing anything but enforcing Haird's point, really. He believes the epilogues (read choices) should matter. I'm sure he didn't like the contradictions in the expansion either.

The issue I have is that he clearly understands why these changes happen. He writes like an educated individual and must know that BioWare has continued some characters that have defied some of the optional choices players had to make in games. He's adapted to that fact before, I think he can do so now.

Doing the whole "just scrap the import feature" is just an extreme exaggeration that doesn't do anyone any good.

I can deal with a couple of the choices not mattering, because it was neccessary for their story.  Conversely, I should not be told that my choices were complete bull**** by the head writers here when they initially stated my choices are supposed to matter.  It's disingenuous, and given the bad press Bioware has on this game from the non 'game journalists', it's not something they should ever outright say.

They will address the rumor of Ander's dying.  That's what they said they would do.  That is a perfect example of a choice mattering.

Holy wow.  I am not arguing about Anders dying, if anything I am arguing about him living.

Why do I bloody bother here.

Next time I'll be sure to put quotation marks over the word "dying." I was expecting you would easily understand what I meant but I know better now.

[2papercuts]

TJPags wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

wait did i miss something

what did they say was and wasn't cannon?

See my signature.

DG stated earlier in this thread that epilogue slides are considered rumor and hearsay.  Many of us thought those epilogue slides were meant as a general wrap up to our choices made in games.  So, when discussing the fact that a Grey Warden Anders possessed by Justice appearing in Awakening may contradict some of those slides, DG responded that they are considered rumor and hearsay.

Some of us don't like that, considering that the game has been marketed as having our choices matter.

that is amazingly awesome...

wow im glad my choices will have an effect

[Veex]

Harid wrote...

I can deal with a couple of the choices not mattering, because it was neccessary for their story.  Conversely, I should not be told that my choices were complete bull**** by the head writers here when they initially stated my choices are supposed to matter.  It's disingenuous, and given the bad press Bioware has on this game from the non 'game journalists', it's not something they should ever outright say.

Treating the epilogues as hearsay and rumor doesn't mean the choices don't matter. It means that, like Varric's tale or any other codex entry etc..., they are a part of Thedas' history. The story of Andraste, of how the Darkspawn are created, all of this information that we hold as facts are essentially rumors. David Gaider is saying that, like much of Thedas' history, some or all of the epilogue may be exaggerated or based on rumor or based on truth.

I think you're being a little disingenous when you say that all of your choices were complete bull****. I don't think it's even necessary to address your press issue.

[Daerog]

Harid wrote...

I recall initially Bioware stating they wanted to make your choices matter more (for Dragon Age 2) after the bad reception to Mass Effect 2 and the limited effect your choices made there.  People are going to be mad, then, when they are told their choices were bull****, and don't matter once again.  Do you get what I am saying?

It's just the "don't matter" part that I think is wrong. The choices are not dropped. They are remembered and they can change some dialogue. They aren't earthshattering or you get a whole different set of companions depending on choices made in the previous game, but that doesn't mean they didn't matter. They happened, they are acknowledged, and Anders coming back doesn't change what happened.

I honestly didn't see the big deal in ME2 either. Wrex is there, Wrex is not there. Doesn't change the story much, but I don't expect BioWare to make two different games just because of some different choices. But the choice did matter. If I killed Wrex, he doesn't appear in ME2, so the choice mattered. At least to my understanding of the word "mattered."

Not saying that you do expect BioWare to make two games in one, just voicing my opinion, as are you, and just answering your question.

[Rake21]

stephen1493 wrote...

Rake21 wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Kids are too damn sheltered these days.

The Shredder died at the end of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and he came back for the sequel. Spock died and came back in the next movie. Wulfgar went to the Abyss and came back. Emperor Palpatine has a couple of clones. A bunch of characters who died in Baldur's Gate came back in Baldur's Gate II. Aribeth always dies after Neverwinter Nights no matter what you do. Doctor Wily keeps coming back no matter how many times he explodes. Sherlock Holmes came back after apparently falling off a cliff. Freddy and Jason don't die no matter how many times they're killed. Imhotep was resurrected again for the Mummy II.

Leaving loopholes to bring characters back for the sequel isn't exactly a new trope. People really ought to be used to it.

you do realize that in none of those examples was it advertised that our choices as to what happens to the characters was carrying over right...If the writers were simply writing a stand alone sequel then write it however you want and bring back  Jory possessed by a desiree demon for all anyone cares...but advertising a save game transfer and telling us our decisions matter seems disconnected from telling that all the endings are meaningless...

Well, couldn't the writers put in a few different ways he ended up alive, a Grey Warden, posessed by Justice/Vengence, and in Kirkwall?  And then, based on your save import, have one of those explanations be the one entered in for your unique playthrough?

People here are upset over the epilouges being spawned from rumor.  There's no specualtion over how it could have worked out.

Ah, I'll be going then

[stephen1493]

Rake21 wrote...

stephen1493 wrote...

Rake21 wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Kids are too damn sheltered these days.

The Shredder died at the end of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and he came back for the sequel. Spock died and came back in the next movie. Wulfgar went to the Abyss and came back. Emperor Palpatine has a couple of clones. A bunch of characters who died in Baldur's Gate came back in Baldur's Gate II. Aribeth always dies after Neverwinter Nights no matter what you do. Doctor Wily keeps coming back no matter how many times he explodes. Sherlock Holmes came back after apparently falling off a cliff. Freddy and Jason don't die no matter how many times they're killed. Imhotep was resurrected again for the Mummy II.

Leaving loopholes to bring characters back for the sequel isn't exactly a new trope. People really ought to be used to it.

you do realize that in none of those examples was it advertised that our choices as to what happens to the characters was carrying over right...If the writers were simply writing a stand alone sequel then write it however you want and bring back  Jory possessed by a desiree demon for all anyone cares...but advertising a save game transfer and telling us our decisions matter seems disconnected from telling that all the endings are meaningless...

Well, couldn't the writers put in a few different ways he ended up alive, a Grey Warden, posessed by Justice/Vengence, and in Kirkwall?  And then, based on your save import, have one of those explanations be the one entered in for your unique playthrough?

People here are upset over the epilouges being spawned from rumor.  There's no specualtion over how it could have worked out.

Ah, I'll be going then

prbly a good idea...

Nah the troll slaying is too good.

Modifié par stephen1493, 16 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[TJPags]

Rake21 wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Kids are too damn sheltered these days.

The Shredder died at the end of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and he came back for the sequel. Spock died and came back in the next movie. Wulfgar went to the Abyss and came back. Emperor Palpatine has a couple of clones. A bunch of characters who died in Baldur's Gate came back in Baldur's Gate II. Aribeth always dies after Neverwinter Nights no matter what you do. Doctor Wily keeps coming back no matter how many times he explodes. Sherlock Holmes came back after apparently falling off a cliff. Freddy and Jason don't die no matter how many times they're killed. Imhotep was resurrected again for the Mummy II.

Leaving loopholes to bring characters back for the sequel isn't exactly a new trope. People really ought to be used to it.

you do realize that in none of those examples was it advertised that our choices as to what happens to the characters was carrying over right...If the writers were simply writing a stand alone sequel then write it however you want and bring back  Jory possessed by a desiree demon for all anyone cares...but advertising a save game transfer and telling us our decisions matter seems disconnected from telling that all the endings are meaningless...

Well, couldn't the writers put in a few different ways he ended up alive, a Grey Warden, posessed by Justice/Vengence, and in Kirkwall?  And then, based on your save import, have one of those explanations be the one entered in for your unique playthrough?

In one Anders epilogue, he is found dead right after the assault on Vigil's Keep, with an arrow in his neck.

In several of Justice's slides, he remains with the Grey Wardens for many years.

These don't seem to work with Anders being poesssed by Justice in Kirkwall during DA2.  A Justice who served with the Wardens for many years could not have ressurrected a dead Anders by possessing him.

So it's hard to see how this can be reconciled without invalidating them.

[kyles3]

I wonder if the whole "your choices matter" spiel will be downplayed in DA2 and ME3. Seems to annoy the developers (who won't let player choice interfere with their story) as much as it does the players (who will never be satisfied with the treatment of their choices).

[bluewolv1970]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Harid wrote...

I recall initially Bioware stating they wanted to make your choices matter more (for Dragon Age 2) after the bad reception to Mass Effect 2 and the limited effect your choices made there.  People are going to be mad, then, when they are told their choices were bull****, and don't matter once again.  Do you get what I am saying?

It's just the "don't matter" part that I think is wrong. The choices are not dropped. They are remembered and they can change some dialogue. They aren't earthshattering or you get a whole different set of companions depending on choices made in the previous game, but that doesn't mean they didn't matter. They happened, they are acknowledged, and Anders coming back doesn't change what happened.

I honestly didn't see the big deal in ME2 either. Wrex is there, Wrex is not there. Doesn't change the story much, but I don't expect BioWare to make two different games just because of some different choices. But the choice did matter. If I killed Wrex, he doesn't appear in ME2, so the choice mattered. At least to my understanding of the word "mattered."

Not saying that you do expect BioWare to make two games in one, just voicing my opinion, as are you, and just answering your question.

Buts that not even the case with DA - DA anders is dead - Anders is still in DA2 thus our choice does not matter unlike in ME where while Wrex living or dying does not change the plot much (yet) it still reflecte dthe coice we wanted to make - I mean DA pulled the same crap in Awakenings - Oghrens dead - oops no is isn't just napping for two weeks...

[stephen1493]

kyles3 wrote...

I wonder if the whole "your choices matter" spiel will be downplayed in DA2 and ME3. Seems to annoy the developers (who won't let player choice interfere with their story) as much as it does the players (who will never be satisfied with the treatment of their choices).

Forumites don't speak for the majority of Bioware gamers. I think we'll be safe.

[TJPags]

kyles3 wrote...

I wonder if the whole "your choices matter" spiel will be downplayed in DA2 and ME3. Seems to annoy the developers (who won't let player choice interfere with their story) as much as it does the players (who will never be satisfied with the treatment of their choices).

Too late for DA2, and I don't care about ME3, but maybe for DA3.

Really, I understand the devs point - they're telling a story, they had an idea where to take it for a while, they don't want to be forced to alter it because of what some note says about something that happened off screen.

But I also understand how the players feel, since those slides exist, change based on our choices, etc.

It may well be another example of wonderful marketing that seems so pevelant with DA2.

No matter what it is, it's a poblem, all right.

[Daerog]

TJPags wrote...

In one Anders epilogue, he is found dead right after the assault on Vigil's Keep, with an arrow in his neck.

In several of Justice's slides, he remains with the Grey Wardens for many years.

These don't seem to work with Anders being poesssed by Justice in Kirkwall during DA2.  A Justice who served with the Wardens for many years could not have ressurrected a dead Anders by possessing him.

So it's hard to see how this can be reconciled without invalidating them.

Eh, if it really had to be done, could just say that when Justice merged with Anders, his body was restored. He was a spirit healer, so maybe he was able to regenerate some of that rotted skin. And the deal could have been made when Justice went back to the Fade and found Anders wandering around.

The Tevinter revenants seem to have held up well with being dead for hundreds of years.

Hey, it's magic and spiritual world interference. Kind of wacky? Yes. I honestly would have preferred a new character, but they could have done worse. Could have thrown in Velanna or whatever her name is.

[RosaAquafire]

I would really rather a great, involving, well-written story than Bioware paying homage to one of fifteen different tepid epilogue slides.

[bluewolv1970]

kyles3 wrote...

I wonder if the whole "your choices matter" spiel will be downplayed in DA2 and ME3. Seems to annoy the developers (who won't let player choice interfere with their story) as much as it does the players (who will never be satisfied with the treatment of their choices).

DA and Me are apples and oranges IMO...In ME the only real issues are the actual consequences of decisions and with it being a trilogy I always expected the big consequences (Rachni ETC) to pay of in 3...That said they were consistent with what we actually did (wrex dead or alive etc) UNLIKE DA which simply habdwaves character deaths and tells us endings are pointless...

[Veex]

TJPags wrote...

In one Anders epilogue, he is found dead right after the assault on Vigil's Keep, with an arrow in his neck.

In several of Justice's slides, he remains with the Grey Wardens for many years.

These don't seem to work with Anders being poesssed by Justice in Kirkwall during DA2.  A Justice who served with the Wardens for many years could not have ressurrected a dead Anders by possessing him.

So it's hard to see how this can be reconciled without invalidating them.

Justice isn't chained to Kristoff's body. He could have possessed Ander's body and remained with the Wardens, no? We're dealing with a fantasy setting where we've apparently "killed" Flemeth and know she is coming back. I haven't heard a lot of outrage regarding that lately, perhaps this Anders situation is just the fresh new thing.

[Daerog]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

Buts that not even the case with DA - DA anders is dead - Anders is still in DA2 thus our choice does not matter unlike in ME where while Wrex living or dying does not change the plot much (yet) it still reflecte dthe coice we wanted to make - I mean DA pulled the same crap in Awakenings - Oghrens dead - oops no is isn't just napping for two weeks...

He did die, and Justice rezzed him. Just like how Wynne died, and the spirit of faith rezzed her. Except Wynne's situation was pretty fast, and Anders could have occurred a year or so later. It's not that much of a stretch considering what else has happened in this world. Like a demon/spirit/soul physically entering the real world without needing a host, which was the Baroness.

Edit: Geez, just thinking about the Baroness, the same case may be with Anders. Coming through all physically fine, but not going into his original body. The Baroness was dead for years, but she popped into the real world looking just fine until she turned into Pride Demon mode.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 16 février 2011 - 05:11 .

[Veex]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

DA and Me are apples and oranges IMO...In ME the only real issues are the actual consequences of decisions and with it being a trilogy I always expected the big consequences (Rachni ETC) to pay of in 3...That said they were consistent with what we actually did (wrex dead or alive etc) UNLIKE DA which simply habdwaves character deaths and tells us endings are pointless...

Conrad Verner says "What up Shepard!"

[TJPags]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

TJPags wrote...

In one Anders epilogue, he is found dead right after the assault on Vigil's Keep, with an arrow in his neck.

In several of Justice's slides, he remains with the Grey Wardens for many years.

These don't seem to work with Anders being poesssed by Justice in Kirkwall during DA2.  A Justice who served with the Wardens for many years could not have ressurrected a dead Anders by possessing him.

So it's hard to see how this can be reconciled without invalidating them.

Eh, if it really had to be done, could just say that when Justice merged with Anders, his body was restored. He was a spirit healer, so maybe he was able to regenerate some of that rotted skin. And the deal could have been made when Justice went back to the Fade and found Anders wandering around.

The Tevinter revenants seem to have held up well with being dead for hundreds of years.

Hey, it's magic and spiritual world interference. Kind of wacky? Yes. I honestly would have preferred a new character, but they could have done worse. Could have thrown in Velanna or whatever her name is.

Possible, but this is cheap, IMO.

And hey, I liked Velanna!!!! 

RosaAquafire wrote...

I would really rather a great, involving, well-written story than Bioware paying homage to one of fifteen different tepid epilogue slides.

I'd rather have not gotten the epilogue slides than find out that they are essentially meaningless.

[bluewolv1970]

Veex wrote...

TJPags wrote...

In one Anders epilogue, he is found dead right after the assault on Vigil's Keep, with an arrow in his neck.

In several of Justice's slides, he remains with the Grey Wardens for many years.

These don't seem to work with Anders being poesssed by Justice in Kirkwall during DA2.  A Justice who served with the Wardens for many years could not have ressurrected a dead Anders by possessing him.

So it's hard to see how this can be reconciled without invalidating them.

Justice isn't chained to Kristoff's body. He could have possessed Ander's body and remained with the Wardens, no? We're dealing with a fantasy setting where we've apparently "killed" Flemeth and know she is coming back. I haven't heard a lot of outrage regarding that lately, perhaps this Anders situation is just the fresh new thing.

So in a version where Anders Never became a grey warden and never meet Justice who in turn stayed with the wardens for several years writing to krsitoffs wife becomes Anders becomes a grey warden anyway, meets Justice anyway and they join together...and we are supposed to believe our choices matter...what's next Howes dead corpse appearing too...

Modifié par bluewolv1970, 16 février 2011 - 05:15 .

[David Gaider]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
It's just the "don't matter" part that I think is wrong. The choices are not dropped. They are remembered and they can change some dialogue. They aren't earthshattering or you get a whole different set of companions depending on choices made in the previous game, but that doesn't mean they didn't matter. They happened, they are acknowledged, and Anders coming back doesn't change what happened.

That's correct. Some choices do matter a great deal, and the fact that choices are recognized doesn't mean every one is. We never promised otherwise, and it changes nothing about DAO. Naturally some people won't like this, but there you go.

[bluewolv1970]

Veex wrote...

bluewolv1970 wrote...

DA and Me are apples and oranges IMO...In ME the only real issues are the actual consequences of decisions and with it being a trilogy I always expected the big consequences (Rachni ETC) to pay of in 3...That said they were consistent with what we actually did (wrex dead or alive etc) UNLIKE DA which simply habdwaves character deaths and tells us endings are pointless...

Conrad Verner says "What up Shepard!"

CV was a transfer issue with the flag not a wrier giving our choices the middle finger...if Anders was a techincal issue that would be understandable, but a when a writer tells us the endings/epilogues are meaningless thats a different story...oh and If you kill CV in ME he DOES NOT make a reappearance in ME2 unlike Anders he simply isn't there...

Modifié par bluewolv1970, 16 février 2011 - 05:17 .

[Harid]

Veex wrote...

Harid wrote...

I can deal with a couple of the choices not mattering, because it was neccessary for their story.  Conversely, I should not be told that my choices were complete bull**** by the head writers here when they initially stated my choices are supposed to matter.  It's disingenuous, and given the bad press Bioware has on this game from the non 'game journalists', it's not something they should ever outright say.

Treating the epilogues as hearsay and rumor doesn't mean the choices don't matter. It means that, like Varric's tale or any other codex entry etc..., they are a part of Thedas' history. The story of Andraste, of how the Darkspawn are created, all of this information that we hold as facts are essentially rumors. David Gaider is saying that, like much of Thedas' history, some or all of the epilogue may be exaggerated or based on rumor or based on truth.

I think you're being a little disingenous when you say that all of your choices were complete bull****. I don't think it's even necessary to address your press issue.

An exaggeration of a fact is bull****, by the very definition, it's precisely what Cassandra calls Varric's "exaggerations".  I'm not being disingenous at all.

Love how I'm considered a troll, by the way.  If we want to throw out stupid blanket terminology for those who do not agree with us, I think I'll start referring to you people as the Bioware Defense Force . *rollseyes*

[VanDraegon]

It is their world to change as they see fit to adapt their games to. Don't buy it if your endings from previous games don't fit perfectly into the cannon the new game and it upsets you. Frankly, it is a minor issue in the scheme of things considering the complexity of modern games and what Bioware is doing. To expect them to cover all the possible combinations is entirely unreasonable

[Veex]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

what's next Howes dead corpse appearing too...

If BioWare thinks it would make for a compelling story, probably, yes.