457 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Browneye_Vamp84 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Browneye_Vamp84 wrote...

when you meet up with Kristoff wife and you do that quest.. Justice says that he envy's the emotions and the such. so maybe Justice.. has gotten warped. he says that he wasnt sure about the 'evil' spirits in the fade.(something like that)

He's high on life. 

Sir Pounce A Lot.... think Anders scarificed him for the greater good??

Sir Pounce A Lot, realizing that Anders no longer needed him for revival now that he had Justice inside him, left to find a more needy companion.  Young children in Amaranthine tell stories of the cat who saved a street urchin from bullies....

[Elessara]

The Chantry is not going to go to war with the Grey Wardens - not over the conscription/recruitment of one apostate. Especially, as someone mentioned, all of the mages in the Wardens are technically apostates.

[Reaverwind]

Zanallen wrote...

I never said joined. I said harbored. Wynne is a potential companion to the warden. Though the events of DA:O, you find out that Wynne is possessed by a spirit, though it is by all accounts a good spirit who lets Wynne do the talking. Since you can allow Wynne to stay with you at this point, you are, in fact, harboring her or at the very least aiding and abetting a known abomination. And what makes Justice any less an abomination? I mean, sure, he is technically closer to a walking corpse than anything else, but does that make him any less a being possessed by a spirit?

You forget there are scenarios where Wynne does not become a companion or dies by the Warden's hand. Kristoff can NOT be an Abomination because he's not a possessed mage.

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...

Like I said, it's a hand-wave overall. We do explain how things came to be depending on your end result, but we don't sit there and guide you through it step-by-step. We treat the epilogues as hearsay and rumor, after all, and when it comes to things that were forecast far in the future they may indeed still happen. If you want to treat them as more than that, that's up to you.

The only thing that I'm not too keen on if all the epilogues are treated as fair game to handwaving is that in Origins/Awakening, most of the consequences for your choices came via the epilogue slides. So to just have a good chunk of those handwaved away for whatever reason to come out to some common point no matter what is a bit disappointing. I can understand some of the more long term ones being ignored for the time being, but even in Witch Hunt, I was a little disappointed how in every Origins epilogue for Morrigan she heads west across the Frostbacks or even ends up in the Orlesian court, and yet WH takes place back in Ferelden.



As long as the explanations are decent with respect to the handwaving and it makes for a better story, thats all I can hope for... although I still want to know what all of the Wardens "vanishing" at the end of Awakening meant:wizard:

Modifié par Brockololly, 16 février 2011 - 03:00 .

[GothDude]

Aldaris951 wrote...

In future games, I would prefer that if a character is killed off, that there wont be some loophole for that character to come back. Doing what they did with anders just removes choices from the game.

Btw Duncan's body was never found, so why not bring him back as well? if we are going by that reasoning. (I would love a duncan cameo in DA2)

honestly, have you played the damn game yet??
how do you know they dont cover ur so called "loop holes"??

seriously Bioware said ur import saves will effect the game in some way. how do you know it wont effect Ander's story hm??

how do you know that the mini story isnt based off of one of the 3 default world saves instead of the import?

please tell oh wise Maker

[Shiro_the_Gambler]

Reaverwind wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I never said joined. I said harbored. Wynne is a potential companion to the warden. Though the events of DA:O, you find out that Wynne is possessed by a spirit, though it is by all accounts a good spirit who lets Wynne do the talking. Since you can allow Wynne to stay with you at this point, you are, in fact, harboring her or at the very least aiding and abetting a known abomination. And what makes Justice any less an abomination? I mean, sure, he is technically closer to a walking corpse than anything else, but does that make him any less a being possessed by a spirit?

You forget there are scenarios where Wynne does not become a companion or dies by the Warden's hand. Kristoff can NOT be an Abomination because he's not a possessed mage.

Zanallen did give the in-game codex definition of an abomination.  So, if he was possessed by a spirit, he is technically an abomination.

[GuldiienDAO]

Anders is pretty much the Kenny of DA2. Accept it.

Modifié par GuldiienDAO, 16 février 2011 - 03:02 .

[David Gaider]

Aldaris951 wrote...
In future games, I would prefer that if a character is killed off, that there wont be some loophole for that character to come back. Doing what they did with anders just removes choices from the game.

Not every choice carries forward into a future game, and of those that do they do not have an equal effect. That's simply the way it is, and it doesn't "remove" anything from the original game. Even had we established a single canon to carry forward (which many games do) that still wouldn't "remove" anything from the original game.

If you or anyone wish to treat the epilogues as something other than rumors and hearsay, as I said, that's your choice. If you treat them as hard and fast canon, however, never to be controverted, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Btw Duncan's body was never found, so why not bring him back as well? if we are going by that reasoning. (I would love a duncan cameo in DA2)

We could bring Duncan back, if we wished. You could have seen him killed, and we could still bring him back if we really wanted to. We don't.

Modifié par David Gaider, 16 février 2011 - 03:03 .

[Reaverwind]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

[Awakening disappointed me in that I never had the opportunity to really explain to Anders's hunters just what, exactly, the Right of Conscription entailed. I felt no remorse whatsoever killing them. They started it, I just finished it. I'm pretty sure that a lot of Grey Wardens would be just as bold about that. Origins makes it clear that the Grey Wardens don't turn away talent. If someone wanted to conscipt Anders, they'd do it. I don't think that the order does a lot of kowtowing to the Chantry. That's just me though

Heck, Duncan recruits a mage over the protests of the Knight Commander of the Circle of Magi himself, not to mention doesn't hesitate to recruit Alistair over the protests of the Grand Cleric. In light of that, I really disliked how Anders's personal quest was handled.

[MColes]

Aldaris951 wrote...

In future games, I would prefer that if a character is killed off, that there wont be some loophole for that character to come back. Doing what they did with anders just removes choices from the game.

Btw Duncan's body was never found, so why not bring him back as well? if we are going by that reasoning. (I would love a duncan cameo in DA2)

1) Anders was never killed off.  EPILOGUE does not count.  It's not true.  If you don't see it happen, it's not canon (And thats to each persons canon).  The Epilogue is just "What may have been." It's not "THIS HAPPENED, NOTHING ELSE MIGHT HAVE. RAWR!"

2) You DO NOT KNOW how they're introducing Anders in the actual game.  The Short story Chris posted was simply a short story for flavour, and David has said, any imported save for effect how Anders becomes involved, eh.

3) Duncan's dead.  And if he isn't he's working for the Architect.  *Frown face* (j/k.. or am I?)

[Zanallen]

Reaverwind wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I never said joined. I said harbored. Wynne is a potential companion to the warden. Though the events of DA:O, you find out that Wynne is possessed by a spirit, though it is by all accounts a good spirit who lets Wynne do the talking. Since you can allow Wynne to stay with you at this point, you are, in fact, harboring her or at the very least aiding and abetting a known abomination. And what makes Justice any less an abomination? I mean, sure, he is technically closer to a walking corpse than anything else, but does that make him any less a being possessed by a spirit?

You forget there are scenarios where Wynne does not become a companion or dies by the Warden's hand. Kristoff can NOT be an Abomination because he's not a possessed mage.

Yes and you don't have to recruit Anders at all. Just because something can go one way doesn't mean other scenarios don't exist. Just because you don't have to have Wynne doesn't mean that you can potentionally have the Grey Wardens harboring an abomination. Also, from the DA wiki about abominations: . While mages stand the greatest chance of being possessed, as they draw their magic from the Fade, it is made clear than any elf or human is a potential host.

[AlexXIV]

Matter-of-factly our decisions are not respected. I mean I saved Anders from the Chantry. At least I thought I did, but obviously I can just give him to the templars with the same result. Same with killing Oghren in DA:O. I never killed him, mind you, but the fact that ANYONE you killed or let die can just get up again, complain a bit about the headache and can become your best buddy again is disturbing.

I mean they move away from Ferelden so your ferelden-choices don't mean much. They change the main character so again, personal decicions you made don't matter much. And then of all things a (possibly) dead companion comes back. At this point I almost feel an 'it was all a dream' twist doesn't seem much worse than this.

[MKDAWUSS]

So why have epilogue screens?



(And yes, I know that they're not necessarily as immediately occurring as they may seem to be.)

[stephen1493]

David Gaider wrote...

Aldaris951 wrote...
In future games, I would prefer that if a character is killed off, that there wont be some loophole for that character to come back. Doing what they did with anders just removes choices from the game.

Not every choice carries forward into a future game, and of those that do they do not have an equal effect. That's simply the way it is, and it doesn't "remove" anything from the original game. Even had we established a single canon to carry forward (which many games do) that still wouldn't "remove" anything from the original game.

If you or anyone wish to treat the epilogues as something other than rumors and hearsay, as I said, that's your choice. If you treat them as hard and fast canon, however, never to be controverted, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Btw Duncan's body was never found, so why not bring him back as well? if we are going by that reasoning. (I would love a duncan cameo in DA2)

We could bring Duncan back, if we wished. You could have seen him killed, and we could still bring him back if we really wanted to. We don't.

Thank you for that btw. Duncan coming back would just be a swift kick to my sides.

Anyways, wouldn't knowing that it doesn't matter if Anders is killed or not in the first game take away the appeal of trying to save him? You can't say that knowing a character CAN NOT DIE wouldn't influence how you play the game.

Modifié par stephen1493, 16 février 2011 - 03:09 .

[Reaverwind]

Zanallen wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I never said joined. I said harbored. Wynne is a potential companion to the warden. Though the events of DA:O, you find out that Wynne is possessed by a spirit, though it is by all accounts a good spirit who lets Wynne do the talking. Since you can allow Wynne to stay with you at this point, you are, in fact, harboring her or at the very least aiding and abetting a known abomination. And what makes Justice any less an abomination? I mean, sure, he is technically closer to a walking corpse than anything else, but does that make him any less a being possessed by a spirit?

You forget there are scenarios where Wynne does not become a companion or dies by the Warden's hand. Kristoff can NOT be an Abomination because he's not a possessed mage.

Yes and you don't have to recruit Anders at all. Just because something can go one way doesn't mean other scenarios don't exist. Just because you don't have to have Wynne doesn't mean that you can potentionally have the Grey Wardens harboring an abomination. Also, from the DA wiki about abominations: . While mages stand the greatest chance of being possessed, as they draw their magic from the Fade, it is made clear than any elf or human is a potential host.

Yes, others may become possessed, but that doesn't make them Abominations. And the Wiki is full of inaccuracies that contradict ingame data.

[Nohvarr]

Aldaris951 wrote...

In future games, I would prefer that if a character is killed off, that there wont be some loophole for that character to come back. Doing what they did with anders just removes choices from the game.

Btw Duncan's body was never found, so why not bring him back as well? if we are going by that reasoning. (I would love a duncan cameo in DA2)

I'm sorry but the sheer arogance of your writing is almost sickening. You come into the forum, and claim you know better than the game's creators how their characters would react, and what they would and wouldn' do. Then you decide that because a character can be killed, he must be considered dead for any future works, and then try to use a flawed comparison to justify your claim. You can't save Duncan, there's no sparing him, or having him join/interact with your party past a certain point. Comparing that to the Anders situation is silly.

So we come to what a person can do and what they can't do.

Either you can accept that the devs know more about their world and characters than you do, and are capable of using those same skills you obviously adored in their previous games to continue their fine tradition of quality story telling or you can't.

If you can't, that's fine just don't come around her acting as if you know better than the devs, and that their refusal to bend to your will some how cheapens tha game.

[stephen1493]

Nohvarr wrote...

Aldaris951 wrote...

In future games, I would prefer that if a character is killed off, that there wont be some loophole for that character to come back. Doing what they did with anders just removes choices from the game.

Btw Duncan's body was never found, so why not bring him back as well? if we are going by that reasoning. (I would love a duncan cameo in DA2)

I'm sorry but the sheer arogance of your writing is almost sickening. You come into the forum, and claim you know better than the game's creators how their characters would react, and what they would and wouldn' do. Then you decide that because a character can be killed, he must be considered dead for any future works, and then try to use a flawed comparison to justify your claim. You can't save Duncan, there's no sparing him, or having him join/interact with your party past a certain point. Comparing that to the Anders situation is silly.

So we come to what a person can do and what they can't do.

Either you can accept that the devs know more about their world and characters than you do, and are capable of using those same skills you obviously adored in their previous games to continue their fine tradition of quality story telling or you can't.

If you can't, that's fine just don't come around her acting as if you know better than the devs, and that their refusal to bend to your will some how cheapens tha game.

easy there killer. Stuff like your first sentence gets you flamed to kingdom come on this forum.

Wait until you both play the game before you get personal.

Modifié par stephen1493, 16 février 2011 - 03:08 .

[Reaverwind]

AlexXIV wrote...

Matter-of-factly our decisions are not respected. I mean I saved Anders from the Chantry. At least I thought I did, but obviously I can just give him to the templars with the same result. Same with killing Oghren in DA:O. I never killed him, mind you, but the fact that ANYONE you killed or let die can just get up again, complain a bit about the headache and can become your best buddy again is disturbing.

I mean they move away from Ferelden so your ferelden-choices don't mean much. They change the main character so again, personal decicions you made don't matter much. And then of all things a (possibly) dead companion comes back. At this point I almost feel an 'it was all a dream' twist doesn't seem much worse than this.

So much for choices mattering, right?

[MColes]

Reaverwind wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I never said joined. I said harbored. Wynne is a potential companion to the warden. Though the events of DA:O, you find out that Wynne is possessed by a spirit, though it is by all accounts a good spirit who lets Wynne do the talking. Since you can allow Wynne to stay with you at this point, you are, in fact, harboring her or at the very least aiding and abetting a known abomination. And what makes Justice any less an abomination? I mean, sure, he is technically closer to a walking corpse than anything else, but does that make him any less a being possessed by a spirit?

You forget there are scenarios where Wynne does not become a companion or dies by the Warden's hand. Kristoff can NOT be an Abomination because he's not a possessed mage.

Yes and you don't have to recruit Anders at all. Just because something can go one way doesn't mean other scenarios don't exist. Just because you don't have to have Wynne doesn't mean that you can potentionally have the Grey Wardens harboring an abomination. Also, from the DA wiki about abominations: . While mages stand the greatest chance of being possessed, as they draw their magic from the Fade, it is made clear than any elf or human is a potential host.

Yes, others may become possessed, but that doesn't make them Abominations. And the Wiki is full of inaccuracies that contradict ingame data.

Abominations are also demon possessions.  Not Spirits.  Justice is a Spirit.  There is, in fact, a difference.

[Aldaris951]

[quote]Btw Duncan's body was never found, so why not bring him back as well? if we are going by that reasoning. (I would love a duncan cameo in DA2)[/quote]

David Gaider:  -We could bring Duncan back, if we wished. You could have seen him killed, and we could still bring him back if we really wanted to. We don't.-

[/quote]


Duncan would of still been alive during the starting events of DA2, It would of been a huge nod to the fans if he was just there for a short cameo. (like hawk meets up with duncan and they compare beards  )

I still dont forgive bioware making a return to ostagar DLC and make it about burying a king that no one cared about but totally ignored Duncan, Who alot of people cared about, Even allistair.

Alistair talks to the warden about him going to highever to honor duncan. thats in the game itself.

Modifié par Aldaris951, 16 février 2011 - 03:09 .

[David Gaider]

Brockololly wrote...
The only thing that I'm not too keen on if all the epilogues are treated as fair game to handwaving is that in Origins/Awakening

Of course not. Like I said, not all choices carry forward, and of those that do not all are equal. We don't deliberately set out to contradict everything you read in the epilogues. Even rumor and hearsay has to have some truth to it. The fact that not all events didn't turn out like you'd heard doesn't suddenly render up down and black white.

I can understand some of the more long term ones being ignored for the time being, but even in Witch Hunt, I was a little disappointed how in every Origins epilogue for Morrigan she heads west across the Frostbacks or even ends up in the Orlesian court, and yet WH takes place back in Ferelden.

Perhaps she did head there, and came back. Or she could head there again. Hearing rumors that Morrigan was spotted in Orlais doesn't mean that no other events could possibly have happened.

As long as the explanations are decent with respect to the handwaving and it makes for a better story, thats all I can hope for... although I still want to know what all of the Wardens "vanishing" at the end of Awakening meant

That may indeed come up. Some things are explained, some things are not. I think some people are always going to hold every last detail, no matter how vague, as a sacred cow-- and thus attempts on our part to explain aren't going to satisfy them anyhow. I don't think we're too worried about it, and I'll leave it at that.

[White_Buffalo94]

Aldaris951 wrote...
This is all abit far fetched though,
Wardens from another country wouldnt defy the chantry because as we all
know, Wardens like to stay out of it, Our character had motivation to
recruit anders by other grey wardens from other countrys wouldnt of
recruited anders because they werent in their own country and would of
angered the chantry, thus risking war.

The wardens do not side with rulers of countries as I remember it, they will oppose the Chantry as they see fit. I may be wrong, but I remember reading that somewhere.
And news flash my friend, Duncan went against the wishes of the Revered Mother to recruit Alistair. She couldn't touch him.
Wardens have TOTAL rights over who they recruit. Duncan recruited Daveth out from under the royal guards nose, he took Alistair from the Chantry, he can take your Warden from certain death in the Dwarven Origins as well as the magi and City Elf Origins.
I'm sure David Gaider has everything down. Whatever you got in the epilogue or whatever you decided in Origins/Awakening can be waved. Nothing Gaider has written for DAII as of yet is contradicting

[stephen1493]

[quote]Aldaris951 wrote...

[quote]Btw Duncan's body was never found, so why not bring him back as well? if we are going by that reasoning. (I would love a duncan cameo in DA2)[/quote]

We could bring Duncan back, if we wished. You could have seen him killed, and we could still bring him back if we really wanted to. We don't.

[/quote]


Duncan would of still been alive during the starting events of DA2, It would of been a huge nod to the fans if he was just there for a short cameo. (like hawk meets up with duncan and they compare beards  )

I still dont forgive bioware making a return to ostagar DLC and make it about burying a king that no one cared about but totally ignored Duncan, Who alot of people cared about, Even allistair.

Alistair talks to the warden about him going to highever to honor duncan. thats in the game itself.[/quote]


^^ not me

I believe that the starting events of DA2 isat the attack of Lothering. Every source I've seen claim this as so. If that's the case then Duncan would already be dead at that time.

Modifié par stephen1493, 16 février 2011 - 03:12 .

[Zanallen]

Reaverwind wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

I never said joined. I said harbored. Wynne is a potential companion to the warden. Though the events of DA:O, you find out that Wynne is possessed by a spirit, though it is by all accounts a good spirit who lets Wynne do the talking. Since you can allow Wynne to stay with you at this point, you are, in fact, harboring her or at the very least aiding and abetting a known abomination. And what makes Justice any less an abomination? I mean, sure, he is technically closer to a walking corpse than anything else, but does that make him any less a being possessed by a spirit?

You forget there are scenarios where Wynne does not become a companion or dies by the Warden's hand. Kristoff can NOT be an Abomination because he's not a possessed mage.

Yes and you don't have to recruit Anders at all. Just because something can go one way doesn't mean other scenarios don't exist. Just because you don't have to have Wynne doesn't mean that you can potentionally have the Grey Wardens harboring an abomination. Also, from the DA wiki about abominations: . While mages stand the greatest chance of being possessed, as they draw their magic from the Fade, it is made clear than any elf or human is a potential host.

Yes, others may become possessed, but that doesn't make them Abominations. And the Wiki is full of inaccuracies that contradict ingame data.

So, I found a quote from David: "Regular people can be possessed by demons, and are still dangerous, but
they are not abominations. Abominations have access to a mage's full
power -- even a weak mage turned into an abomination is dangerous --
while a possessed human (or possessed anything) is only as dangerous as
the demon that did the possessing."

So, I guess non-mages are not abominations, but really...Is that the distinction that the Grey Wardens are making? Oh, this guy is possessed by a demon, but he doesn't have access to his own magic supply on top of the demon's, so he's cool.

[Gabriel S.]

David Gaider wrote...

Aldaris951 wrote...
Yea I understand that, But other wardens from another country wouldnt risk recruiting anders because they would of risked war with the fereldan chantry. The wardens in Fereldan are ok recruiting anders because we are the warden commander, If a warden from orlays came, they wouldnt recruit anders or risk war with the chantry. they simply wouldnt risk it.

So... you know what the Grey Wardens would or would not do?

Well alrighty, then. Clearly you know better than I do.

Like I said, it's a hand-wave overall. We do explain how things came to be depending on your end result, but we don't sit there and guide you through it step-by-step. We treat the epilogues as hearsay and rumor, after all, and when it comes to things that were forecast far in the future they may indeed still happen. If you want to treat them as more than that, that's up to you.

Wow, for some strange reason, I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my metaphorical shoulders...