152 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

Phoenixblight wrote...
If you don't want the game what would be the point in getting the extra items? Thats a bit childish. "I won't like this game but I sure as hell want the extras" Yeah I totally see the logic there.......Not

Who said that I don't want the game? I think the game looks mostly pretty good. I would be buying the game, heck I may even have preordered it, if they hadn't packaged and sold it the way they did.

[Phoenixblight]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Phoenixblight wrote...
you are acting as if the people that have preorered are in some kinda of permanent contract where they can't cancel the said preorder.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Though I am saying that I doubt many who preordered will actually cancel even if they find they are dissappointed with the demo. Specificaly, the notion that one cannot be trying to trick if one includes all the information is false. Advertisers constantly offer bad deals, include all the information, and still make it fly just by painting everything in possitive language. And people fall for that. All. The. Time.

Oh right because people are so lazy and don't care about tossing their money into the wind to simply call the retailer and cancel it or go on a website and click cancel order. Hell you can be so lazy and just simply not pay. Your logic is flawed. 

Modifié par Phoenixblight, 16 février 2011 - 04:58 .

[Black_Warden]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Oh, indeed Vael is fully integrated into the game. But you can't use him unless you pay extra. Or committed to buying the game early.

You, and I mean you specifically along with anyone else that preordered in time, are not getting nickle-and-dimed. But anyone that did not do so is very much being scraped for any extra bit of cash possible. As mentioned above, anyone who didn't commit to buying the game early has to pay extra for every last extra bit. A lot of which is already finished and ready for distribution along with the main game.

as i said before, rewarding one group of people for ordering early does not equal punishing another.

For example, let's say you have two children. one day, child #1 decides to vacuum the floor. as thanks for vacuuming the floor without being told to do so, you give that child a cookie.
this action and reaction has nothing at all to do with child #2, and the fact that #2 doesn't get a cookie can not be construed as punishing #2 for any action, or lack thereof, in this situation.

Black_Warden wrote...
Pre-ordering this or any game does NOT commit the person ordering to anything

It does if you want the "extras." 

What i'm saying is if a person pre-orders and later decides they don't want DA2 after all, there is no penalty for cancelling that order. If they've seen enough to know they won't like DA2, an extra character and a couple weapons isn't going to change their mind and make them decide to play it after all.

[the_one_54321]

Phoenixblight wrote...
Oh right because people are so lazy and don't care about tossing their money into the wind to simply call the retailer and cancel it or go on a website and click cancel order. Hell you can be so lazy and just simply not pay. Your logic is flawed.

I am not making a logical argument. I am conjecturing.
And no, actually I am not implying that people will be too lazy to cancel. What I am implying is that people who feel dissapointed will not have the will power to actually cancel and not play the game.

[Black_Warden]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Phoenixblight wrote...
Oh right because people are so lazy and don't care about tossing their money into the wind to simply call the retailer and cancel it or go on a website and click cancel order. Hell you can be so lazy and just simply not pay. Your logic is flawed.

I am not making a logical argument. I am conjecturing.
And no, actually I am not implying that people will be too lazy to cancel. What I am implying is that people who feel dissapointed will not have the will power to actually cancel and not play the game.

I'm curious to know how you are so sure about how others will act.

[Phoenixblight]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Phoenixblight wrote...
Oh right because people are so lazy and don't care about tossing their money into the wind to simply call the retailer and cancel it or go on a website and click cancel order. Hell you can be so lazy and just simply not pay. Your logic is flawed.

I am not making a logical argument. I am conjecturing.
And no, actually I am not implying that people will be too lazy to cancel. What I am implying is that people who feel dissapointed will not have the will power to actually cancel and not play the game.

Oh that even makes more sense they just simply lost the will to do so because they are sooo disappointed. Hahah That even makes more sense than my assumption. Bioware simply took their will to cancel...... 

[aksoileau]

It has nothing to do with business ethics. The OP is mad that he procrastinated too long and missed out on a great offer, so naturally he wants to blame someone else.

[the_one_54321]

Black_Warden wrote...
as i said before, rewarding one group of people for ordering early does not equal punishing another.

For example, let's say you have two children. one day, child #1 decides to vacuum the floor. as thanks for vacuuming the floor without being told to do so, you give that child a cookie.
this action and reaction has nothing at all to do with child #2, and the fact that #2 doesn't get a cookie can not be construed as punishing #2 for any action, or lack thereof, in this situation.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I just don't think that anything you've said here is at all like what is happening with the sale of this game.

Black_Warden wrote...
What i'm saying is if a person pre-orders and later decides they don't want DA2 after all, there is no penalty for cancelling that order. If they've seen enough to know they won't like DA2, an extra character and a couple weapons isn't going to change their mind and make them decide to play it after all.

That's not quite what I'm talking about though. What I mean are those that have seen the game and think that they will really like it. Like me. I think that I would for the most part really enjoy this game. Though there are some things about it that I am not so happy about. These people preorder. Then they play the demo and they find that some things about the game are really not what they wanted. But they still want to play the game even though they aren't happy about how it turned out. Instead of objecting to the changes and canceling their preorder, I think most folks would end up leaving the preorder be, and then just complain about it later.

[the_one_54321]

Black_Warden wrote...
I'm curious to know how you are so sure about how others will act.

Conjecture.
I don't claim to know anything. I'm reasoning what I think will happen based on what I have seen people do in these kinds of situations. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong, but this is how I believe something like this will go down.

Phoenixblight wrote...
Oh that even makes more sense they just simply lost the will to do so because they are sooo disappointed. Hahah That even makes more sense than my assumption. Bioware simply took their will to cancel...... 

This is bordering on ad homenim, which I find fairly insulting. I don't thinkt hat BioWare will do anything to any of these people that will change their will power or ability to choose. I just think that this is the way people are. Path of least resistance. It's much easier to complain than it is to cancel.

[Phoenixblight]

the_one_54321 wrote...


That's not quite what I'm talking about though. What I mean are those that have seen the game and think that they will really like it. Like me. I think that I would for the most part really enjoy this game. Though there are some things about it that I am not so happy about. These people preorder. Then they play the demo and they find that some things about the game are really not what they wanted. But they still want to play the game even though they aren't happy about how it turned out. Instead of objecting to the changes and canceling their preorder, I think most folks would end up leaving the preorder be, and then just complain about it later.

THen that is the person choice, its not Bioware fault because they didn't create a game that the person wanted. 

the_one_54321 wrote...


This is bordering on ad homenim, which I find fairly insulting. I don't thinkt hat BioWare will do anything to any of these people that will change their will power or ability to choose. I just think that this is the way people are. Path of least resistance. It's much easier to complain than it is to cancel. 

Then get pissed at the person not the company because they are just simply doing what is a business is supposed to. Hint: Make money. 

Modifié par Phoenixblight, 16 février 2011 - 05:10 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Phoenixblight wrote...
Oh right because people are so lazy and don't care about tossing their money into the wind to simply call the retailer and cancel it or go on a website and click cancel order. Hell you can be so lazy and just simply not pay. Your logic is flawed.

I am not making a logical argument. I am conjecturing.
And no, actually I am not implying that people will be too lazy to cancel. What I am implying is that people who feel dissapointed will not have the will power to actually cancel and not play the game.

What is your point?

[the_one_54321]

Phoenixblight wrote...
THen that is the person choice, its not Bioware fault because they didn't create a game that the person wanted.

I would not disagree with you about that, except that I believe BioWare's sales plan is counting on people to behave like this and I find that deplorable.

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
What is your point?

Read above.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 16 février 2011 - 05:10 .

[Mad-Max90]

No, dlc is not technically finished when the game is, they stated they're not done with exiled prince, and without dlc we wouldn't even have him, I for one am grateful to bioware they essentially gave away bonuses to those who preordered the game. Yes the exta character is a bonus the extra weapons and items yeah there bonuses too, and guess what you can get bonuses for even downloading and playing the demo, please stop complaining because at the most you couldn't putdown 5 measly dollars, get over yourselves this is a capitalist society has been for as long as I can remember and by all means this is a great thing they did for fans and newcomers alike.

[Black_Warden]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Black_Warden wrote...
as i said before, rewarding one group of people for ordering early does not equal punishing another.

For example, let's say you have two children. one day, child #1 decides to vacuum the floor. as thanks for vacuuming the floor without being told to do so, you give that child a cookie.
this action and reaction has nothing at all to do with child #2, and the fact that #2 doesn't get a cookie can not be construed as punishing #2 for any action, or lack thereof, in this situation.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I just don't think that anything you've said here is at all like what is happening with the sale of this game.

See, i see myself as child #1, i ordered early based purely on my faith in bioware. so, i got a cookie. those who held off and pre-ordered after jan 11th, or not at all, are child #2. they've done nothing wrong, and are not being punished in any fashion. they are still given the opportunity to get their hands on many of the pre-order stuff. but the cookie is not for them. it is a reward for demonstrating a certain behavior, and if that behavior was not shown it can not be rewarded.

Black_Warden wrote...
What i'm saying is if a person pre-orders and later decides they don't want DA2 after all, there is no penalty for cancelling that order. If they've seen enough to know they won't like DA2, an extra character and a couple weapons isn't going to change their mind and make them decide to play it after all.

That's not quite what I'm talking about though. What I mean are those that have seen the game and think that they will really like it. Like me. I think that I would for the most part really enjoy this game. Though there are some things about it that I am not so happy about. These people preorder. Then they play the demo and they find that some things about the game are really not what they wanted. But they still want to play the game even though they aren't happy about how it turned out. Instead of objecting to the changes and canceling their preorder, I think most folks would end up leaving the preorder be, and then just complain about it later.

OK, i get what you're saying. i don't disagree that some people will do as you describe, however, as it will have been their choice to keep their order even after playing the demo, they have no one to blame but themselves and no real basis to complain (though complain they will, i'm sure)

[Cloaking_Thane]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Phoenixblight wrote...
THen that is the person choice, its not Bioware fault because they didn't create a game that the person wanted.

I would not disagree with you about that, except that I believe BioWare's sales plan is counting on people to behave like this and I find that deplorable.

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
What is your point?

Read above.

The problem with you conjecture is exactly that it is conjecture though..........every one of you implications is negative, cynical, and likely off the mark, you've not had any positive conjecture here.

i.e, conjecture is fancy opinion!

[HTTP 404]

Amitar wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Zerakus wrote...

So... any store or company that have limited time offers are unETHICAL? Seriously? First of, that means so to say any game company, with steam, amazon and various retailers having games discounted for a limited time.

Secondly.... in what concieveable way is that unethical?

its right up there with Murder. 

I'm pretty sure murder is a moral issue, not an ethical one.

/philosophy-nerd

oh yah my bad.  thats what I get for being witty and tired at the same time. 

obviously my point is that you can disagree with the marketing tactic but unethical is pretty much a stretch. its not like bioware is like Enron.

[the_one_54321]

Black_Warden wrote...
OK, i get what you're saying. i don't disagree that some people will do as you describe, however, as it will have been their choice to keep their order even after playing the demo, they have no one to blame but themselves and no real basis to complain (though complain they will, i'm sure)

Sure, I don't disagree with that at all. Just, like I mentioned in the post above, I think this sales model is banking on those folks not cancelling their preorder once they've made and I find that kind of sales tactic fully unacceptable.

[FereldenDweller]

For a lot of us lack of "faith" was not the problem. If I had known about this deadline I would have pre-ordered early even if I knew NOTHING about what it included because I am a loyal fan. Late to the party loyal fan, but loyal fan nonetheless. Money was not an issue for me either and I would have been happy to pay in full in advance. The problem is the marketing was NOT what it should have been. This game, and this news, did NOT get the attention it deserved, and that is not the customers' fault. Some of you apparently were lucky - local Gamestop had signs out, gaming website of choice covered it in depth, whatever, but that was not the case with everybody. In fact the only reason I played Origins so late in the game was because of the total lack of it getting the attention it deserved when it came out, and I got LUCKY to be reminded of it later (because of a promotion on discounted dlc on Xbox Live). The marketing for THAT was fantastic - unfortunately those of us who bought Origins in response to that were too late to play Origins, decide it was the best game they'd ever played in their life, and preorder the SE DA2.

[Saberchic]

aksoileau wrote...

It has nothing to do with business ethics. The OP is mad that he procrastinated too long and missed out on a great offer, so naturally he wants to blame someone else.

QFT.
Seriously, all this "EA and Bioware are trying to trick/screw us over" talk is just ridiculous. Bioware was up front with how long the SE offer was going to be around, and they even announced the companion before the deadline.

This whole child analogy with the vacuum/cookie is pretty spot on too. (I never saw any punishment being doled out by Bioware)

People really go to such depths to avoid laying the blame where it actually belongs: on their own shoulders.

[Mad-Max90]

Please you know damn well you can't hold an argument with a conjecture, you need proof which you obviously have none so your really relying on a dimwitted notion

[Black_Warden]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Black_Warden wrote...
OK, i get what you're saying. i don't disagree that some people will do as you describe, however, as it will have been their choice to keep their order even after playing the demo, they have no one to blame but themselves and no real basis to complain (though complain they will, i'm sure)

Sure, I don't disagree with that at all. Just, like I mentioned in the post above, I think this sales model is banking on those folks not cancelling their preorder once they've made and I find that kind of sales tactic fully unacceptable.

Not to insult you, but i think any sales model that is banking on what will be such a tiny percentage of possible consumers (those who don't reeaaally want the game, but are too "meh" to cancel pre-orders) is, frankly, insanely stupid.

Edit: @FereldenDweller

Where i'm from, looking anywhere connected to video games had some kind of ad for the DA2 SE offer, but that very well might not have been the case everywhere. however, that really has nothing to do with the the offer itself, or the "ethics"/fairness/whatever of the limited-time-only deal. you have a right to be a little frustrated (Sure, you could have looked harder, but if it was better marketed you shouldn't have to), however make sure your frustration is aimed correctly: at the Marketingfail department.

Modifié par Black_Warden, 16 février 2011 - 05:23 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

FereldenDweller wrote...

For a lot of us lack of "faith" was not the problem. If I had known about this deadline I would have pre-ordered early even if I knew NOTHING about what it included because I am a loyal fan. Late to the party loyal fan, but loyal fan nonetheless. Money was not an issue for me either and I would have been happy to pay in full in advance. The problem is the marketing was NOT what it should have been. This game, and this news, did NOT get the attention it deserved, and that is not the customers' fault. Some of you apparently were lucky - local Gamestop had signs out, gaming website of choice covered it in depth, whatever, but that was not the case with everybody. In fact the only reason I played Origins so late in the game was because of the total lack of it getting the attention it deserved when it came out, and I got LUCKY to be reminded of it later (because of a promotion on discounted dlc on Xbox Live). The marketing for THAT was fantastic - unfortunately those of us who bought Origins in response to that were too late to play Origins, decide it was the best game they'd ever played in their life, and preorder the SE DA2.

IIRC it was up on the bioware *da2* main site for at least 4 months( possibly longer), your bioware loyalty didnt stretch as far as to check the website once in 4 months?

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 16 février 2011 - 05:21 .

[the_one_54321]

Saberchic wrote...
Seriously, all this "EA and Bioware are trying to trick/screw us over" talk is just ridiculous. Bioware was up front with how long the SE offer was going to be around, and they even announced the companion before the deadline.

This is a fallacy. Again, advertisers offer bad deals with very possitive language all the time. Actually, it doesn't matter how horrible or fantastic a deal is, marketing will still always make it out to be the best deal you've ever seen and give you all the information on it up front at the same time.

You can be completely honest and up front about something and still be trying to trick someone just by the language you use.

[the_one_54321]

Black_Warden wrote...
Not to insult you, but i think any sales model that is banking on what will be such a tiny percentage of possible consumers (those who don't reeaaally want the game, but are too "meh" to cancel pre-orders) is, frankly, insanely stupid.

You're either still missunderstanding or trying to push the topic toward a more favorable interpretation for you. I'm not talking about the people that are "meh." I'm talking about the people that want to play the game but have reasons to not play it, or object to the sales method, or object to the new features and so on.

[Cloaking_Thane]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Saberchic wrote...
Seriously, all this "EA and Bioware are trying to trick/screw us over" talk is just ridiculous. Bioware was up front with how long the SE offer was going to be around, and they even announced the companion before the deadline.

This is a fallacy. Again, advertisers offer bad deals with very possitive language all the time. Actually, it doesn't matter how horrible or fantastic a deal is, marketing will still always make it out to be the best deal you've ever seen and give you all the information on it up front at the same time.

You can be completely honest and up front about something and still be trying to trick someone just by the language you use.

so you are implying that was the case here, or just making a sweeping generalization or both?