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Signature editon, worst marketing idea ever?


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#326
Black_Warden

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Emoking wrote...

*snip*
 I don't think that enough purely unbiased reviews will actually hit the stores/internet for DA2's release.
*snip*


I'm sorry, please don't take this as me being rude to you, but i absolutely hate when people say this. a purely unbiased, objective review would sound like this:

This is a game. There is significant amounts of walking, talking and fighting in this game. also, there are graphics, which are computer generated. there are various points in this game where choices can be made. there are different classes, such as a warrior, rogue, and mage. they play differently. there is an ending. there are many cinematic events. (i could go on)

Edit: if you, or anyone, wants a real example of an "unbiased, objective" review, feel free to check out this one from destructoid.

http://www.destructo...ii-179178.phtml

Modifié par Black_Warden, 17 février 2011 - 01:35 .


#327
JrayM16

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Emoking wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Emoking wrote...

Another random thought:

The games industry is the only industry I can think of which incentivizes the consumer to pay money/pre-order an item before they have any clue what it's like. Pre-order DLC (and its concept) is exclusive (no pun intended) to this industry.

No other line of products asks you to take a chance on something before you have an unbiased review of it in your hands.

(yes, slightly off topic, but the current argument is like the "Why wasn't the SE available on Steam" thread)


Season Tickets for sports teams comes to mind, in fact alot of the entertainment industry does, preorders are common place. second, you dont pay any money to pre-order this game (possibly 5 bucks at gamestop), even then like a person earlier said you have the extra option to wait, not open it, get your reviews, and then decide. If you decide you dont like it after reviews and playing the demo, then get your money back full stop within 30 days generally


Ah, I'm not a huge sports fans, so that escaped me. What other parts of the entertainment industry does exclusives? I'm at a loss here.

Edit: Season tickets. Is there something akin to DLC there? I can see that they ask for money up front on the assumption of the team being entertaining, yes, but... Do sports teams do special shows for season ticket holders only? Do season ticket holders get to see the team train? That is what I would think of as "sports-team DLC".

Finally. Reviews.

The PC Gamer review hits the stands tomorrow. 3 weeks before DA2's release. I don't care for PC gamer (though I do have it bookmarked). I subscribe to Edge; the next issue of that won't come to my door til, I believe, DA2 gets released. This is a subjective matter, I know, but seriously... I don't think that enough purely unbiased reviews will actually hit the stores/internet for DA2's release. And the demo? Mmmm... Obviously we differ here, but I don't judge games by demos. Been playing games too long to know that demos don't sum up the full game well enough (certainly not in an RPG).

Still, these things aren't aimed specifically at BioWare. The industry is a lot different now than 25 years ago when I got into it. *wistful sigh* :)


Meh.  Any review is biased cause it's subjective.  I find that a lot of people define "biased" reviews as ones they disagree with.  And vice versa.  Not accusing you, I just feel like that term gets thrown around a lot.

#328
Pixieking

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Black_Warden wrote...

Emoking wrote...

*snip*
 I don't think that enough purely unbiased reviews will actually hit the stores/internet for DA2's release.
*snip*


I'm sorry, please don't take this as me being rude to you, but i absolutely hate when people say this. a purely unbiased, objective review would sound like this:

This is a game. There is significant amounts of walking, talking and fighting in this game. also, there are graphics, which are computer generated. there are various points in this game where choices can be made. there are different classes, such as a warrior, rogue, and mage. they play differently. there is an ending. there are many cinematic events. (i could go on)


Okay. To clarify.

Unbiased in this sense means "Not had a publisher lean on the magazine/give a timed exclusive in order to get a decent review score". And before you say it doesn't happen, google/wiki Kane and Lynch 1, and the fallout from the exclusive review of that game. It happens, and probably a lot more than anyone thinks.

#329
JrayM16

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Emoking wrote...

Black_Warden wrote...

Emoking wrote...

*snip*
 I don't think that enough purely unbiased reviews will actually hit the stores/internet for DA2's release.
*snip*


I'm sorry, please don't take this as me being rude to you, but i absolutely hate when people say this. a purely unbiased, objective review would sound like this:

This is a game. There is significant amounts of walking, talking and fighting in this game. also, there are graphics, which are computer generated. there are various points in this game where choices can be made. there are different classes, such as a warrior, rogue, and mage. they play differently. there is an ending. there are many cinematic events. (i could go on)


Okay. To clarify.

Unbiased in this sense means "Not had a publisher lean on the magazine/give a timed exclusive in order to get a decent review score". And before you say it doesn't happen, google/wiki Kane and Lynch 1, and the fallout from the exclusive review of that game. It happens, and probably a lot more than anyone thinks.


Happens plenty with movies too.  It's just hidden much better.

#330
Pixieking

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JrayM16 wrote...

Emoking wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Emoking wrote...

Another random thought:

The games industry is the only industry I can think of which incentivizes the consumer to pay money/pre-order an item before they have any clue what it's like. Pre-order DLC (and its concept) is exclusive (no pun intended) to this industry.

No other line of products asks you to take a chance on something before you have an unbiased review of it in your hands.

(yes, slightly off topic, but the current argument is like the "Why wasn't the SE available on Steam" thread)


Season Tickets for sports teams comes to mind, in fact alot of the entertainment industry does, preorders are common place. second, you dont pay any money to pre-order this game (possibly 5 bucks at gamestop), even then like a person earlier said you have the extra option to wait, not open it, get your reviews, and then decide. If you decide you dont like it after reviews and playing the demo, then get your money back full stop within 30 days generally


Ah, I'm not a huge sports fans, so that escaped me. What other parts of the entertainment industry does exclusives? I'm at a loss here.

Edit: Season tickets. Is there something akin to DLC there? I can see that they ask for money up front on the assumption of the team being entertaining, yes, but... Do sports teams do special shows for season ticket holders only? Do season ticket holders get to see the team train? That is what I would think of as "sports-team DLC".

Finally. Reviews.

The PC Gamer review hits the stands tomorrow. 3 weeks before DA2's release. I don't care for PC gamer (though I do have it bookmarked). I subscribe to Edge; the next issue of that won't come to my door til, I believe, DA2 gets released. This is a subjective matter, I know, but seriously... I don't think that enough purely unbiased reviews will actually hit the stores/internet for DA2's release. And the demo? Mmmm... Obviously we differ here, but I don't judge games by demos. Been playing games too long to know that demos don't sum up the full game well enough (certainly not in an RPG).

Still, these things aren't aimed specifically at BioWare. The industry is a lot different now than 25 years ago when I got into it. *wistful sigh* :)


Meh.  Any review is biased cause it's subjective.  I find that a lot of people define "biased" reviews as ones they disagree with.  And vice versa.  Not accusing you, I just feel like that term gets thrown around a lot.


Mmmm... Yeah, I get that. There's two types of bias, though. There's the dubious "exclusive review" bias. And then there's the "That review isn't what I agree with" bias. For instance, Edge gave DA:O a 6 (I think). I do not agree with that. However, other than an instance where they gave Turok 2 on the N64 a 10, I agree with the reviews enough that I trust what they say. No timed exclusive bias, with them, I feel.

#331
Cloaking_Thane

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Emoking wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Emoking wrote...

Another random thought:

The games industry is the only industry I can think of which incentivizes the consumer to pay money/pre-order an item before they have any clue what it's like. Pre-order DLC (and its concept) is exclusive (no pun intended) to this industry.

No other line of products asks you to take a chance on something before you have an unbiased review of it in your hands.

(yes, slightly off topic, but the current argument is like the "Why wasn't the SE available on Steam" thread)


Season Tickets for sports teams comes to mind, in fact alot of the entertainment industry does, preorders are common place. second, you dont pay any money to pre-order this game (possibly 5 bucks at gamestop), even then like a person earlier said you have the extra option to wait, not open it, get your reviews, and then decide. If you decide you dont like it after reviews and playing the demo, then get your money back full stop within 30 days generally


Ah, I'm not a huge sports fans, so that escaped me. What other parts of the entertainment industry does exclusives? I'm at a loss here.

Finally. Reviews.

The PC Gamer review hits the stands tomorrow. 3 weeks before DA2's release. I don't care for PC gamer (though I do have it bookmarked). I subscribe to Edge; the next issue of that won't come to my door til, I believe, DA2 gets released. This is a subjective matter, I know, but seriously... I don't think that enough purely unbiased reviews will actually hit the stores/internet for DA2's release. And the demo? Mmmm... Obviously we differ here, but I don't judge games by demos. Been playing games too long to know that demos don't sum up the full game well enough (certainly not in an RPG).

Still, these things aren't aimed specifically at BioWare. The industry is a lot different now than 25 years ago when I got into it. *wistful sigh* :)


Well any entertainment leisure activity really. I mean ok take concerts, and lets say back stage passes are the reward for preordering a ticket, generally only for  the "9th caller" but you get my drift

Or broadway similar scenario. Or TV commercials, order within the next 3 minutes and you get this FREE!!!!! (jazz hands)


RE: Unbias reviews I have a hard time coming to terms with that because by their nature they are opinion pieces with both positives and negatives thrown in.

About the only review I trust other than my own and knowing what I like is consumer reports.

#332
Pixieking

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JrayM16 wrote...

Emoking wrote...

Black_Warden wrote...

Emoking wrote...

*snip*
 I don't think that enough purely unbiased reviews will actually hit the stores/internet for DA2's release.
*snip*


I'm sorry, please don't take this as me being rude to you, but i absolutely hate when people say this. a purely unbiased, objective review would sound like this:

This is a game. There is significant amounts of walking, talking and fighting in this game. also, there are graphics, which are computer generated. there are various points in this game where choices can be made. there are different classes, such as a warrior, rogue, and mage. they play differently. there is an ending. there are many cinematic events. (i could go on)


Okay. To clarify.

Unbiased in this sense means "Not had a publisher lean on the magazine/give a timed exclusive in order to get a decent review score". And before you say it doesn't happen, google/wiki Kane and Lynch 1, and the fallout from the exclusive review of that game. It happens, and probably a lot more than anyone thinks.


Happens plenty with movies too.  It's just hidden much better.


True. Though movies are easier to deal with, because they're more immediate the fallout from word-of-mouth tends to counter and "paid for" reviews. :D

#333
Pixieking

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Cloaking_Thane wrote...


Or broadway similar scenario. Or TV commercials, order within the next 3 minutes and you get this FREE!!!!! (jazz hands)


It's late, so will respond to your post tomorrow, but I'd just like to say...


Everyone loves jazz hands. :D

#334
JrayM16

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Emoking wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Emoking wrote...

Black_Warden wrote...

Emoking wrote...

*snip*
 I don't think that enough purely unbiased reviews will actually hit the stores/internet for DA2's release.
*snip*


I'm sorry, please don't take this as me being rude to you, but i absolutely hate when people say this. a purely unbiased, objective review would sound like this:

This is a game. There is significant amounts of walking, talking and fighting in this game. also, there are graphics, which are computer generated. there are various points in this game where choices can be made. there are different classes, such as a warrior, rogue, and mage. they play differently. there is an ending. there are many cinematic events. (i could go on)


Okay. To clarify.

Unbiased in this sense means "Not had a publisher lean on the magazine/give a timed exclusive in order to get a decent review score". And before you say it doesn't happen, google/wiki Kane and Lynch 1, and the fallout from the exclusive review of that game. It happens, and probably a lot more than anyone thinks.


Happens plenty with movies too.  It's just hidden much better.


True. Though movies are easier to deal with, because they're more immediate the fallout from word-of-mouth tends to counter and "paid for" reviews. :D


Well that backlash still happens with games.  Look back the Kane & Liynch debacle.  People were crying out for Eidos's blood after that.  And the fallout after obviously paid for Famitsu reviews is usually pretty apparent.

#335
Maria Caliban

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Black_Warden wrote...

http://www.destructo...ii-179178.phtml


Reductio ad absurdum. The man should have a bit more pride in his writing.

#336
Black_Warden

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Reductio ad absurdum.


While i know what this phrase means, it just makes me think of a Harry Potter spell... Posted Image

#337
Maria Caliban

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Vantabulus magnificarum!

*waves wand*

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 février 2011 - 01:55 .


#338
Black_Warden

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Sectum Sempra!

*waves wand at haters*

Posted Image

#339
Cloaking_Thane

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Oh I just thought of another one............first dates, you pay money and have no idea how its gonna go.......or dating websites

#340
Dr. wonderful

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vir prudens non contra ventum mingit.

#341
Cloaking_Thane

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oh Vacations like cruises, no idea the weather, I dont know how the vacation will turn out....



$500 bucks all expenses paid up front!

#342
Erode_The_Soul

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To me, the Signature Edition sounds good in theory, but it was very poorly implemented. I would much prefer they ditch this particular strategy, and stick with the Shale/Black Emporium method of enticing pre-orders/new sales.



However, if Bioware decides to go the Limited Signature Edition route again, I hope it's executed a bit better.

#343
Blood-Lord Thanatos

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I think that there really was no need for any signature edition, I thought about getting it, but ultimately it makes no sense for me to get the collectors edition of a sequel to a game that I got in the regular edition. and really, if I did want a collector's edition, I would have to ace all of my classes for that. I hate mid-terms, especially when its a few weeks away on the same week as release day. nevertheless, to everyone who snagged a sig edition, I wish you good fortune and a eternity of darkspawn hunting!

#344
The Dread Pirate Thomas

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 First time poster, long time lurker.

I work for  a really big retailer, think wal mart but I'm not in the USA. I'm responsible for pricing policy, including the psychology of pricing and consumer choices.

The signatiure edition isn't the worst marketing idea ever, but it IS the worst executed.

And, no offense, but some of the responses from the Bioware team display a degree of ignorance about how their customers make choices in their lives.

And whilst buying a game isn't that big a choice, really, compared to say a car or a house, once it gets over thirty or forty us dollars equivalent, they people do tend to put a fair bit of thought into trying to make a good decision - benefits to them vs cost to them.

If - if -  the signature edition, and all the 'retailer exclusive item' retail editions, and all the distribution options (PC, PC or Mac, PC and MAC, DD, console)  had been clearly differentiated, priced, and presented right from the start, people might have been able, as Stanley suggested, to make an informed consumer choice to buy or not to buy, when to buy, and which version to buy, etc (although it would have been really complicated). it would have been possible.

But that's not the case. Promotions that are specific to unique retailers pop up all over the place, some after the signature edition expired. Promotions that were supposed to be universal, like the sword and shield, turn out to be retailer-optional.

DD options like Steam become available after the sig edition expired. The Mac version is on the same disc as PC, but that's announced after many people may have already pre ordered pc only through steam. A mac version may or may not come to Steam. We still don't know what DRM will be used for the different versions.

So you can't tell your customers it's over to them to make a rational choice, when they're not aware of all the choices. They hate that. Fundamental consumer psychology dictates that even in a dollar store, people won't pick up merchandise that isn't clearly priced. Even though the worst it can be is a dollar or two, it is basic human nature to avoid making choices where the consequences are unclear. And if they do take a chance, all it does is increase the likelihood of them being disappointed with their product. 

Worst case scenario for the seller is often though of as being "too confusing, I won't buy it", but actually  "I bought it but wish I hadn't because something better got announced the next day" is worse. It makes people feel bad about what they just bought, and does more long term damage to the seller's brand, reputation (and customer loyalty) than just about anything else.

Normally, people try to do the exact opposite to this - they buy something and then post-rationalise about why it was a good idea. Having your customers doing the opposite is really, really bad. We want shopping to make us feel good. It's not supposed to be hard. We kinda already feel guilty about buying stuff because we could, you know, give it to someone worse off than us instead, or save it for our retirement, or spend our time writing poetry instead of gaming, whatever, so making them feel like they made the wrong choice is really, really poor marketing.

Really, this is all about the second hand game market, and the way it drives game publishers nuts (2nd hand games count for about 20% of Best Buy's sales but over half its profits - the publisher hates this and lies awake at night plotting about how to change it).

Having benefits that only come with a 'new' copy make sense if the benefits are clearly articulated right from the start. Having benefits that try to encourage preorders - in an effort to get your money now before you spend it another game later also makes sense. But doing all of this crap, and revealing it at different times just gives the impression that despite its maturing into a multi billion dollar industry, gaming's maturity is only skin deep - it's being run by a bunch of amateurs.

Worst executed release and value / benefit / pricing plan ever? Probably. In gaming terms anyway. And Bioware clearly, based on the posts in here, with all due respect, don't get it.

Modifié par The Dread Pirate Thomas, 17 février 2011 - 04:24 .


#345
Mad-Max90

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Why is there such a heated debate over this, they did a good job with the idea it was implemented as planned it drove up preorders which is what they want, and they rewarded their loyal fans with nice promotional items, and to complain that they made a signature edition because you didn't buy a collectors edition of the first game is ridicules. I have the regular for origins but preordered knowing full well that I enjoyed origins and hey the upgraded my preorder for free, it's easy to point your finger and blame bioware for those who didn't get it, but it's not easy to admit that ,with the exception of those who preordered from play.com, that the fault of you not getting the signature edition is ultimately no ones fault but your own. I put five dollars down 4 months ago and slowly put money into it, its not hard, hell I can even not play it wait for a review and if I don't hear good things I can get a full refund, but I won't do that, like merrill this game is a keeper!

#346
Chris Priestly

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I agree. There is no point in debating this further. The offer for the Signature Edition is over. Hopefully, for those that did not pre-order in time to get the SE, they will still pre-order and get the Fadeshear and Lion of Orlais.

To the rest, thank you for your opinion.


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