345 réponses à ce sujet

[Nighteye2]

Relying on pre-orders for a promotion is too error-prone and will only cause customers to be irritated - either because of the problems to find participating retailers, because of cancelled pre-orders and because people feel forced to pre-order to get the bonuses, at participating retailers, instead of going to their preferred store at release day or waiting for the reviews of the game.



Not everyone likes pre-ordering a game on little more than faith at a store they've never been before and had to search for, with the risk of their pre-order getting cancelled and so losing their pre-order bonuses...

[Cloaking_Thane]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
From devs mouths....most DLC happens after the game is finished and people are effectively twiddling thumbs. you could pretend that's diverging resources, but in reality they get their paycheck either way.

You can't stand on this when the example I gave you when asked was Vael. He is shipping with the game on day 1.

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
There is a fundamental assumption in your argument that you need this dlc to play the game or its somehow terrible without it, or that somehow people etc are jipped.

I never made any such assumption. ME2 was still good and DA:O was still fantastic and I never downloaded a single add-on from BioWare.

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
DLC has kept games like ME, Dragon Age, Oblivion, ME2, Fallout 3, etc expand their shelf life and keep them and bioware in the consumer consciene for far longer than, oh lets say two worlds, or a dynasty warriors game, or *insert obscure title, from company x*.

Not my concern. I am the consumer, not the producer.

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
This is largely a circular conversation where you say something broad and general where some people might say yea that right, but when you dissect it further, it rings empty.

Hardly. And if you're going to claim the argument is circular I'll ask you to outline where it flows back into its beginning.

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Fundamentally how EA bioware use their resources re:dlc isnt any concern of yours, you may have an opinion, but their decision to use their own resources certain isnt a "problem", you have complete freedom how to spend your dollars i.e dont like DLC dont buy DLC,

Totally wrong. How they develop and then sell the game is completely my concern. Because I'm the one that's paying the bill for it. I, and everyone else that buys the games. It's our money. And furthermore, what all of you decide about it is also my concern because it affects how they develop and sell the game in the future, which affects the options I have for buying games in the future. It very much behoves me to talk about this as much as possible.

Wrong, EA is a publicly traded company that utilizes investors (stock holder) money to pay the bills.

you certainly pay for the final product which enhances products and does keep the investors happy and money flowing (profits), but to think its all down to your purchase is naive. certainly games need to have a certain monetary threshold and indeed if no one bought DA2 likely the funding of bioware through EA coffers would diminish

Woo at some point said that Vael was not complete at the time the disc was sent off for QA therefore he wasnt going to make in on the final disc, you contradict yourself by saying everything is your concern yet nothing is your concern you cant have it both ways, which is it? publicly or marketing wise makes no difference

Its circular how I described the situation that repeatedly occurs....you (generalize) someone else (dissect), repetition pattern circle your choice.

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 16 février 2011 - 07:52 .

[the_one_54321]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Wrong, EA is a publicly traded company that utilizes investors (stock holder) money to pay the bills.

you certainly pay for the final product which enhances products and does keep the investors happy and money flowing (profits), but to think its all down to your purchase is naive. certainly games need to have a certain monetary threshold and indeed if no one bought DA2 likely the funding of bioware through EA coffers would diminish

Profits are the bottom line. No profits means that stock investments devalue. The money comes from somewhere. When stock investments are the only place it comes from that's when companies end up filing for bankfuptcy.

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Woo at some point said that Vael was not complete at the time the disc was sent off for QA therefore he wasnt going to make in on the final disc

I wasn't aware of that. But this still points to the change between DA:O sales model and DA][ sales model. Shale wasn't available to ship with the disk either. Then she was. But anyone who bought that game new got her at no extra cost. Why the change? Why only for preorders now?

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
you contradict yourself by saying everything is your concern yet nothing is your concern you cant have it both ways, which is it?

Read the edit.

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Its circular how I described the situation that repeatedly occurs....you (generalize) someone else (dissect), repetition pattern circle your choice.

The only thing I've said that even comes close to a generalization is that the deal presented is bad for gamers. And I've responded to every point in your, and other's disection.

[crimzontearz]

uh.....Thane? that is ALWAYS the "excuse" with day one DLC characters.



is it true? honestly we will never know. You may or may not believe Bioware on this one. I like Bioware and I want to believe them but I work for a company with a LARGE marketing department myself and I KNOW the BS that is thrown around to the public and the way they tell you to push the company line



that said



as long as Sebastian is free to all new purchases I am 100% fine with it. The Ethical ramifications of day 1 DLC are waaaaaay too muddled with gray areas to give a general rule of thumb to it but in this case, if it helps the company reduce 2nd hand sales or allows them for a small profit from it I am all good

[the_one_54321]

Black_Warden wrote...
In context, what the dev (i believe it was Gaider) was saying was that after content lock (6-8 months before release) there are certain parts of the dev team that no longer need to work on that game, and can move on (to DLC, or another project)

This ties into what i just said. From a dev perspective, the game is "done" once the cd content is locked. most will move on to their next project, be it a new game or DLC, while some will be fixing bugs found by the QA team, and doing any other general polishing.

there is an overlap, for sure, as some DLC is being made before the game is released, but it is not content that can be added to the main game without delaying it and restarting the entire 6-8 month QA process.

I've heard about the content lock and how the game goes gold before. I remember it being talked about back when Shale was included with new copies of DA:O.

But there are still the differences to consider. Look at the differences in development time. DA][ has taken years less time than DA:O. Shale was offered for free with any new copy. Vael is only added for free if you preordered months in advance. Why the differences? 

[Morroian]

the_one_54321 wrote...

But there are still the differences to consider. Look at the differences in development time. DA][ has taken years less time than DA:O. Shale was offered for free with any new copy. Vael is only added for free if you preordered months in advance. Why the differences? 

Cause they want to encourage people to pre-order by a specific date presumably to increase initials numbers shipped. They have the other bonus offer to encourage peoplem to buy the game new.

[Wulfram]

I dislike it greatly, but I fear it worked.

[DARBanks]

I think it was a good idea cause I like the Black cover better so I preordered it before the deadline.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Profits are the bottom line indeed, which is why based upon previous bioware sales they arent going anywhere as a subsidiary and have substantially more resources at there disposal now thanks to the EA buyout/merger. You're one of millions, this board represents 100's possibly 1000's of people. The video game industry is expanding not collapsing...anyways I digress

There was no subterfuge re:marketing, you had knowledge of everything.

You describe Shale........every new purchase had shale (priced at $15) ok.......Every new copy of DA2 gets Black emporium (character creator) and Dog as a companion (price TBD) what is you point, its different strokes for different folks.....

Vael is essentially another Kasumi, not another shale in other words, point being it is largely irrelevant when they come out.

Crimson......its the line because its true in this case

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 16 février 2011 - 08:11 .

[the_one_54321]

Morroian wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
But there are still the differences to consider. Look at the differences in development time. DA][ has taken years less time than DA:O. Shale was offered for free with any new copy. Vael is only added for free if you preordered months in advance. Why the differences?

Cause they want to encourage people to pre-order by a specific date presumably to increase initials numbers shipped. They have the other bonus offer to encourage peoplem to buy the game new.

Sure, that's a reasonable answer. But it's not a great deal for the people buying the game. For those who are preordering it's all well and good. For those that don't want to preorder, suddenly they have to pay extra if they want the same amount of content. Even if they buy the game new. Why should people who don't want to preorder not be upset about that? Why can't they wait for the reviews? Why can't they wait to hear about what actual players think of the experience? If it really is such a great game, why would that be a problem? In that sense, it's a pretty sour deal we're getting handed here. "Have faith, or pay extra."

[Black_Warden]

the_one_54321 wrote...

But there are still the differences to consider. Look at the differences in development time. DA][ has taken years less time than DA:O.

DAO was in development for 5, almost 6 years. that can hardly be held as a standard. DA2 has been in development for roughly 24-26 months, which is pretty standard for most mid-high quality games, and longer than many sequels get. when thinking of development time, you must remember that this time around, BioWare didn't have to design an engine, and didn't have to create quite as many buttloads of new lore.

Shale was offered for free with any new copy. Vael is only added for free if you preordered months in advance. Why the differences? 

Shale is a bit of a different situation, as her fate was directly tied to the huge delay(s) that DAO had to deal with. however, to answer your question, Vael is not added with any new copy because that is the offer that extends to the black emporium and mabari war dog.

[Phoenixblight]

You can wait for the Gold, diamond , Game of the year edition pay 60$ and get all the DLC free. Wait a year and you make off better than those that preorder or buy the game on release date.

[the_one_54321]

Black_Warden wrote...
DAO was in development for 5, almost 6 years. that can hardly be held as a standard. DA2 has been in development for roughly 24-26 months, which is pretty standard for most mid-high quality games, and longer than many sequels get. when thinking of development time, you must remember that this time around, BioWare didn't have to design an engine, and didn't have to create quite as many buttloads of new lore.

Sure, but what is the average length for mid-high quality games lately? While I enjoy games like Smash Bros and FEAR2 a whole lot, if BioWare's games are going to approach that standard in terms of length I'm going to be very disappointed in them from here on out. Longer development times yeild better games. (for the most part anyway, not sure if Duke Nukem counts for that XD)

Black_Warden wrote...
Shale is a bit of a different situation, as her fate was directly tied to the huge delay(s) that DAO had to deal with. however, to answer your question, Vael is not added with any new copy because that is the offer that extends to the black emporium and mabari war dog.

I agree that Shale was different, and with Thane in general that Vael is more likened to Kasumi. But that doesn't make me feel any better about the situation he presents as it just harkens back to the exchange we just had about DLC and seperating development teams to work that stuff. The important difference between Vael and Kasumi, however, is that Kasumi was released well after the game debuted. Vael, even if he wasn't finished in time to be included on the disk, was started well before the game was locked.

If you combine the two notions, that the development time was so significantly shortened, and that Vael was started before the game was locked, and there is enough reason to believe that BioWare has chosen a deal better for themselves and worse for us.

This is, again, all my own soft reasoning. I'm not claiming that I know what's going on behind their locked doors. But I do feel pretty strongly that this is the case. Also, I agree pretty much with what Crimsontears had to say.

[Phoenixblight]

the_one_54321 wrote...


If you combine the two notions, that the development time was so significantly shortened, and that Vael was started before the game was locked, and there is enough reason to believe that BioWare has chosen a deal better for themselves and worse for us.

This is, again, all my own soft reasoning. I'm not claiming that I know what's going on behind their locked doors. But I do feel pretty strongly that this is the case. Also, I agree pretty much with what Crimsontears had to say.

Yes Vael was created befor ethe locked content point and because they felt it wasn't on par with the rest of the game they put it on the DLC pipeline. They weren't going to delay the game just to put Vael inside of the disc. The days are gone of constant delays in hope of making the game better. No company has endless resources to just toss up the entire process because of a character or content that didn't fit the quality of the game. Bioware/EA has investors to answer to and they are required to make a profit. 

Modifié par Phoenixblight, 16 février 2011 - 08:28 .

[Black_Warden]

the_one_54321 wrote...

 Longer development times yeild better games. (for the most part anyway, not sure if Duke Nukem counts for that XD)

It is physically impossible for Duke Nukem Forever to not be the greatest FPS of all time. [/discussion]

[Cloaking_Thane]

Autolycus wrote...

Posted this in the other similar thread before it was locked.

I have to agree with this, as I have only ever pre-ordered one game in my life. Rather than trust, have faith or rely on biased and paid (it's well known) 'reviews' from other sources, I'd rather get real reviews from people who have played the game first and who have similar tastes to myself before I potentially waste my very hard earned money.

I agree with the_one (for a change) as I think we are getting a hard deal.

There is a trade off, you've traded time and larger amounts of information in exchange for not getting a "full package", when or if you purchase it.

Its a similar principal to movies:

See Preview, know producer, Know genre, enjoy
Choice: Midnight release, Regular Theatre, Dollar theatre, DVD rental, TV.

Oct10-jan11, jan 11-march 8, new copy, "sale version", used copy, Ultimate edition

Both costs are time, and possibly entertainment value

Moreover at varying points in time, there will be sales where you my even get greater value for your money than an SE purchaser.

has the Paradigm shifted slightly, certainly, but to be honest at this point in time if you arent confident in the quality of Bioware games I would question why you have a forum account....and if your a fan of the RPG genre then its well known that bioware are one of the few quality game makers left/around...

[Ariella]

I really don't get all the venom, I ordered right when DA2 was announced and expected I'd have to ante up extra for when they announced the CE. Because of the SE promotion, that didn't happen, I paid the price for the regular game and, I don't see where I can say I was "cheated" in anyway, considering I'm getting extra content completely FREE.

[crimzontearz]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Crimson......its the line because its true in this case

my point is we do not know for sure, we can only go on faith

[Cloaking_Thane]

crimzontearz wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Crimson......its the line because its true in this case

my point is we do not know for sure, we can only go on faith

Well, in this case a bioware employee (Woo) came an told us re:Vael, but I suppose its generally advisable to always be skeptical.

But the broad fundamentals of the processes of making a game are fairly well known (Design, Develop, Complete, QA, Gold, etc)

[the_one_54321]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
has the Paradigm shifted slightly, certainly, but to be honest at this point in time if you arent confident in the quality of Bioware games I would question why you have a forum account....and if your a fan of the RPG genre then its well known that bioware are one of the few quality game makers left/around...

I'm not conerned that the game won't be good, actually. I'm fairly certain that I would enjoy it a lot. Though, from some of the themes they have revealed I think I wouldn't have liked it as much as DA:O. What I'm concerned about is how BioWare is handling it's sales and business practices. Though there were a few things that made me slightly question buying the game, it was when they announced how they planned to sell the game and its add-ons that set me firmly against buying it at debut.

[JrayM16]

crimzontearz wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...
Crimson......its the line because its true in this case

my point is we do not know for sure, we can only go on faith

Yup. 

But the "we don't know for sure" argument works just as well in support of Bioware's line being true as it does against.  It's the Argument from Ignorance logical fallacy, a fallacy in this case because it does not prove either side or resolve the argument in any way.

[Cloaking_Thane]

You arent being penalized you are making a choice, you chose to wait, the offer expired. I've chosen to wait for multiple things even though there were enticing offers because I thought I could get a better deal, sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt....