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[Wintermist]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls.

I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

While it fits well with the Grey Warden too, I'd have loved to see something similarly epic for the Grey Warden and not the short few words they did get.

Modifié par Wintermist, 14 novembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[Flamin Jesus]

"A bridge to stand under, some tobacco and thick-soled boots."

Works for me.

[Kyrellic]

Actually, I think the few words the Wardens use are more powerful in their simplicity. It's fitting for a group that have, by the time they hear those words, already become sacrifices to guarantee the world's future.

"...one day, we shall join you."

[Tattercloak]

I recognized a few links between the two as well (lone defenders against a large-scale supernatural threat, woefully understaffed as far as capable combatants are concerned, right of conscription and willingness to take even criminals into their ranks) but the Grey Warden motto is alright. I agree though, it wouldn't hurt to have their formal oath be a bit longer.

[speedy111280]

Wintermist wrote...

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death.

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post.

I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls.

I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

While it fits well with the Grey Warden too, I'd have loved to see something similarly epic for the Grey Warden and not the short few words they did get.

The Grey Warden's remind me more of the Night Watch than any other similar order from fantasy series. Both have many members who are criminals in some form, both keep watch for an attack by an ancient adversary that the general populace believes to no longer be a threat and the similarities go on. I can definitely see the influence of GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire on this game.

[Wintermist]

speedy111280 wrote...

The Grey Warden's remind me more of the Night Watch than any other similar order from fantasy series. Both have many members who are criminals in some form, both keep watch for an attack by an ancient adversary that the general populace believes to no longer be a threat and the similarities go on. I can definitely see the influence of GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire on this game.

Indeed, and I do like the Grey Warden because of it. I really wish we would get more involved with the lore before you joined them, perhaps a sequence at a campfire on your way to Ostagar where there would be a rather substantial talk and explanation about the Grey Wardens. You would get to talk about it and ask your questions.

I wouldn't have minded a more serious and longer initiation either. It was over rather quickly and didn't really feel like it was a big deal even though two people died from it.

[Zenthar Aseth]

One thing I found very odd, though..



I thought the Warden's have about 5 years, give or take of their life left after the ritual. Because everyone was so worked over about the "death sentence" you have when you have the taint in you..



But it's 30 years??? I mean, what? If you're 30 when you join, you can live to be over 60... 20->50. And so on. That's really nothing bad at all. If anything, that's AWESOME. They'll know when their end will come. They can end their days fighting instead of dying in a bed. And they won't even die long before they would naturally.. although if DA is like real middle ages, they'd live a lot LONGER than normally if they die at 60.,.



That's assuming they even survive 30 years, which is unlikely. So I was amazed they have that much left after having the taint in them... or well, I was amazed that anyone would think it's a big deal

[Wintermist]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

One thing I found very odd, though..

I thought the Warden's have about 5 years, give or take of their life left after the ritual. Because everyone was so worked over about the "death sentence" you have when you have the taint in you..

But it's 30 years??? I mean, what? If you're 30 when you join, you can live to be over 60... 20->50. And so on. That's really nothing bad at all. If anything, that's AWESOME. They'll know when their end will come. They can end their days fighting instead of dying in a bed. And they won't even die long before they would naturally.. although if DA is like real middle ages, they'd live a lot LONGER than normally if they die at 60.,.

That's assuming they even survive 30 years, which is unlikely. So I was amazed they have that much left after having the taint in them... or well, I was amazed that anyone would think it's a big deal

Well yeah, it didn't strike me as so bad either. It would have been more interesting with even more side effects such as impotence, enhanced senses and physiology but at the same time enhanced aging and increased body temperature instead. These could all be very logical. But who knows, in a magical world...

[David Gaider]

Keep in mind that the "30 years" figure is a number that has been thrown around on these forums. The actual number varies according to the individual, and it's difficult to look at the ages of existing Grey Wardens for a guide simply because they tend to age more quickly as a result of the taint.



But it isn't just a few years, no, and if someone joined the Grey Wardens when they were old enough it's possible that they could live a relatively long life anyhow -- especially compared to those with poorer health or worse circumstances. I think for most Wardens, however, the prospect of living *long* enough to actually reach their Calling is a fearsome prospect. It's not something that springs on you suddenly. It creeps on you and you feel it coming.



Still, it is a good long while. The idea of the "death sentence" more comes from the knowledge that it *does* hang over your head. No matter how well you otherwise live, it will come to an unnatural end. If you tell me that kind of time limit being handed to you, even a long one, wouldn't be disturbing to you then I'd say you are an exceptional person.

[speedy111280]

Wintermist wrote...
Indeed, and I do like the Grey Warden because of it. I really wish we would get more involved with the lore before you joined them, perhaps a sequence at a campfire on your way to Ostagar where there would be a rather substantial talk and explanation about the Grey Wardens. You would get to talk about it and ask your questions.

I wouldn't have minded a more serious and longer initiation either. It was over rather quickly and didn't really feel like it was a big deal even though two people died from it.

I would have liked to see a longer initiation as well. I also agree about the words the Grey Warden's have. One of my absolute favorite parts of the ASOIAF series is Jon taking his vows for the Night Watch. That part gives me chills every time I read it, especially since I know where that will lead him in the future. I would have loved to have a similiar oath for the Grey Wardens.

[Zenthar Aseth]

David Gaider wrote...

Keep in mind that the "30 years" figure is a number that has been thrown around on these forums. The actual number varies according to the individual, and it's difficult to look at the ages of existing Grey Wardens for a guide simply because they tend to age more quickly as a result of the taint.

But it isn't just a few years, no, and if someone joined the Grey Wardens when they were old enough it's possible that they could live a relatively long life anyhow -- especially compared to those with poorer health or worse circumstances. I think for most Wardens, however, the prospect of living *long* enough to actually reach their Calling is a fearsome prospect. It's not something that springs on you suddenly. It creeps on you and you feel it coming.

Still, it is a good long while. The idea of the "death sentence" more comes from the knowledge that it *does* hang over your head. No matter how well you otherwise live, it will come to an unnatural end. If you tell me that kind of time limit being handed to you, even a long one, wouldn't be disturbing to you then I'd say you are an exceptional person.

Actually, it was Alistair in the game who said "30 years, give or take." So I didn't get it from the forums..

I think it's good this way. I'm just amused that this caused so much drama before the game was released "Omg! my character will die like just after the game ends?!?!"... and then it turns out you can live very, very long after the ritual. Can you say what factors decide how long you can endure the taint? Willpower? Physical strength? Or is just about genes? Some can take it longer, some not as long?

30 years is so long that I would honestly not mind - I'd like that, in fact. Especially since you know when the time is coming.. 

[Wintermist]

David Gaider wrote...

Keep in mind that the "30 years" figure is a number that has been thrown around on these forums. The actual number varies according to the individual, and it's difficult to look at the ages of existing Grey Wardens for a guide simply because they tend to age more quickly as a result of the taint.

But it isn't just a few years, no, and if someone joined the Grey Wardens when they were old enough it's possible that they could live a relatively long life anyhow -- especially compared to those with poorer health or worse circumstances. I think for most Wardens, however, the prospect of living *long* enough to actually reach their Calling is a fearsome prospect. It's not something that springs on you suddenly. It creeps on you and you feel it coming.

Still, it is a good long while. The idea of the "death sentence" more comes from the knowledge that it *does* hang over your head. No matter how well you otherwise live, it will come to an unnatural end. If you tell me that kind of time limit being handed to you, even a long one, wouldn't be disturbing to you then I'd say you are an exceptional person.

Yeah, I think the problem is that you don't get very much feedback on the whole deal in game. It's pretty much rushed into and then forgotten. I'd have loved all of this and certainly the darkspawn sensing which grows as you get more attuned to the blood to have a larger impact on the game.

As you progress you could have increasing attacks by darkspawn on you because they sense you as well as you sense them, you would have to prepare defense and also get reminded storywise about side-effects of the darkspawn blood brooding inside you.

[David Gaider]

Zenthar Aseth wrote...
Actually, it was Alistair in the game who said "30 years, give or take." So I didn't get it from the forums..

Alistair says that?

Huh. Well, that shows how good my memory is these days. My apologies. As I recall, that's Alistair's assessment for the player (who is pretty young), but the "give or take" should be taken liberally.

I think it's good this way. I'm just amused that this caused so much drama before the game was released "Omg! my character will die like just after the game ends?!?!"... and then it turns out you can live very, very long after the ritual. Can you say what factors decide how long you can endure the taint? Willpower? Physical strength? Or is just about genes? Some can take it longer, some not as long?

I'd say it's mostly physical health, but there are stories we've done where some Grey Wardens who lose their will or who become despondent feel the Calling much, much earlier than others. So willpower obviously plays a role. Who knows? Maybe how much you're exposed to the darkspawn after the Joining also has a role -- a Grey Warden who barely encounters the taint after their Joining might last much, much longer than one who's fighting them on a daily basis.

Modifié par David Gaider, 14 novembre 2009 - 06:20 .

[Zenthar Aseth]

Yeah, he does. Hopefully you didn't write that part of the dialogue or there might be a problem
Or perhaps not.. must be confusing writing a lot for the game and then writing about the same stuff a little bit differently in the forums.. but yeah, I got the feeling Alistair was just throwing a number out there..

Hmm, how old is Duncan? How old was he when he became a Grey Warden? I read the first chapter of your second book - he's been a GW for a few months there. And in the game Alistair says that Duncan said his time would come soon..

Being very mysterious now, aren't we, eh. I guess I'm just curious if it's more of a physical or a mental condition.. e.g cancer opposed to madness. The first will progress pretty much just as much even if you have a strong will... the latter can be resisted through willpower (sometimes/usually).

Edit: although if contact with the Darkspawn quickens the spread of the Taint, it would seem it's at least partly a mental condition.. or who knows, with magic everything is possible 

Modifié par Zenthar Aseth, 14 novembre 2009 - 06:32 .

[Wintermist]

There's so little we know of Duncan really. Yet I feel he's one of the characters that influenced me the most in the whole game. It's strange that. It could be his +5 Beard.

Modifié par Wintermist, 14 novembre 2009 - 06:51 .

[PatT2]

While the taint means an eventual death hanging like the sword of damacles over your head, the thought of what could happen before death, like brood mother (were you reading the codex entries still?) or Branca's friend. I mean, I would want to die before that happened. So 30 years...might be time alive, but living in a state worse than death. That's why the Grey Wardens go down to the deep roads and fight darkspawn. They want to die while they are still fighting as humans...not turn into some sort of brood mother (as a woman). You want to die with your sword in your hand, not as some abomination. And who knows how long that takes?



When you look at it this way, there are no inconsistencies. No happily ever afters, either. That's why my first character decided to sacrifice herself. Better than becoming what I saw down in the deep roads.

[Spyre2001]

David Gaider wrote...
Still, it is a good long while. The idea of the "death sentence" more comes from the knowledge that it *does* hang over your head. No matter how well you otherwise live, it will come to an unnatural end. If you tell me that kind of time limit being handed to you, even a long one, wouldn't be disturbing to you then I'd say you are an exceptional person.

We all have a "death sentence" the moment we are born. Most people just put it out of their minds though and simply ignore it much as I'm sure the Gray Warden's do. Also no one can be curtain of when they will die. I mean sure they know that in about 30 years the taint will over take them but they could die on the battle field tomorrow for all they know.

You could make a real life comparison to that as well. Say a doctor tells someone they have a terminal illness and only about a year to live. Well that's still not very specific of a date and for all they know they could get hit by a car, fall down the stairs, or die any number of ways before the illness would of killed them.

Once you get into your 50s or 60s you start to realize that you might not have another 30 years and even if you do they might not be "good" years. You might end up requiring full time medical care while your motor skills slip away. So just like with the taint you might wonder if it's better to check out early when you see the end coming. For the young and healthy this is unthinkable but for those who see their minds sliping away because of altimers or their bodies failing due to various causes this would seem like mercy in the same way the Warden's view going off to the Deep Roads before the taint madness takes hold and kills them.

The point is even if you have a general estimate on hold long you have to live for whatever reason there is no guarantee. It doesn't give you a specific date and you could die from any number of things before then. You never know what will happen on any given day. I mean the average life span is what 70 years? So odds are you have about 70 - (your age) years left to live.

[Haasth]

It still sounds rather shocking to me however - knowing that you are going to die a rather unnatural death within give or take 30 years. Sure a lot, I bet most, will die before their Calling but somewhere in the back of your mind you must start to count down the years after a while.



Although I do much prefer their death - fighting the darkspawn until you die - over what a lot of people have to endure; slowly die from disease or rather sudden from old age without ever having done anything to be remembered by.



But as it has been said in-game too... "We'll all die someday."

[David Gaider]

Spyre2001 wrote...
We all have a "death sentence" the moment we are born. Most people just put it out of their minds though and simply ignore it much as I'm sure the Gray Warden's do. Also no one can be curtain of when they will die. I mean sure they know that in about 30 years the taint will over take them but they could die on the battle field tomorrow for all they know.

You could make a real life comparison to that as well. Say a doctor tells someone they have a terminal illness and only about a year to live. Well that's still not very specific of a date and for all they know they could get hit by a car, fall down the stairs, or die any number of ways before the illness would of killed them.

Once you get into your 50s or 60s you start to realize that you might not have another 30 years and even if you do they might not be "good" years. You might end up requiring full time medical care while your motor skills slip away. So just like with the taint you might wonder if it's better to check out early when you see the end coming. For the young and healthy this is unthinkable but for those who see their minds sliping away because of altimers or their bodies failing due to various causes this would seem like mercy in the same way the Warden's view going off to the Deep Roads before the taint madness takes hold and kills them.

The point is even if you have a general estimate on hold long you have to live for whatever reason there is no guarantee. It doesn't give you a specific date and you could die from any number of things before then. You never know what will happen on any given day. I mean the average life span is what 70 years? So odds are you have about 70 - (your age) years left to live.

That's no doubt very true. I'm sure most Grey Wardens put it out of their head and chalk it up to "if I even live THAT long..." You'd have to, wouldn't you? Or it would drive you crazy. Chances are, however, that the longer a Warden lived the more that death sentence would weigh on them. Every Warden is probably going to deal with it differently.

[Gill Kaiser]

It's like being the child of two carriers of Huntington's disease or some other degenerative hereditary condition.

The fact that the Grey Wardens don't tell their initiates about their shortened lifespan before the Joining was the main thing that didn't sit well with me, although I understand their reasons. I didn't have a problem with it for most of the Origins, since Duncan saved you from execution in most of them. The human noble origin, though, kind of makes the deception seem a bit worse, since Duncan semi-blackmailed Teyrn Cousland into allowing his child to join, and a Teyrn's child would still have a lot of options available to them even if they had lost their land. As a Human Noble, you join the Wardens in good faith and mostly out of gratitude and respect, so being rewarded with a slow death does seem more of a gyp.

[Haasth]

That is indeed the most shocking part - having to find it out the hard way and not being told of it before. Likewise with the 'how to kill an Archdemon' description.

[Blessed Silence]

I think everyone has such a thing the moment they are born .. could get hit by a car ><



But it is interesting. My character is only 17, meaning the poor dear might not even make it to 40 ...



Well on the bright side no menopause for her!

[Zachriel]

Likewise with the 'how to kill an Archdemon' description.

I'm fairly sure that Duncan had intended to kill the Archdemon himself. After all, he was sensing that the time for his Callling was coming soon anyway. But before he could face the Archdemon, he as betrayed by Loghain and died. I'm sure that if that had not happened, he would have explained the process to you and Alistair and come up with some plan for killing it himself.



I think putting it out of mind would probably be the best way for a Warden to deal with the death sentence of the Joining. After all, there's nothing you can do about it that point. No sense driving yourself crazy over something you can't control. Although, I think Alistair does mention that the nightmares Wardens suffer vary in intensity between Wardens. Those who have more intense or more frequent darkspawn dreams would probably have a harder time not thinking about their impending doom.

[westiex9]

when you think about it most people in ferelden probably don't live past 50 anyway, so if your warden was in their 20's thirty years might not be so bad lol. And if you know your death is coming one day your going to make the most of the time youve got.  

Modifié par westiex9, 16 novembre 2009 - 02:36 .

[Kyrellic]

Of course, the problem with Wardens putting it out of their minds is that they can feel the taint. It's not just academic knowledge of "Oh, and I'm going to die one day", but an actual sensation.