85 réponses à ce sujet

[wizardryforever]

I hear a lot of complaining that the hub worlds in ME2 were small and boring, especially compared to the completely perfect in every way ME1. <_<  So I thought I'd point out some simple facts about the hubs in ME2, things you may not have realized.

First off, there are four hubs in ME2, as opposed to one (one and a half if you're generous), Omega, the Citadel Zakera Ward, Illium, and Tuchanka.  In ME1, the Citadel was huge, but mostly empty, and Port Hanshan on Noveria was really not a hub world in that it didn't link to anywhere else or have much going on there outside of the one mission set there.

The Citadel in ME1 has five merchants on the Citadel, the hanar on the Presidium, the volus in the Wards, Morlan, Dr. Michel (once you rescue her), and the C-Sec officer in charge of equipment.  And Port Hanshan only has one merchant, Opold (can be taken out of the picture by having him arrested).  All well and good.  Now in ME2: on Omega you have Kenn's salvage, Harrot's store, and the Batarian merchant.  On Zakera ward, you have the Sirta Foundation, Saronis Applications, Rodham Expeditions, and Citadel Sovenirs (which is only for aesthetic crap, so you might omit them).  On Illium there are three more, Hermia's store, Gateway weapons, and the souvenir shop.  And finally, on Tuchanka there are two more stores, Ratch's and Fortack's.  Add em up and compare: ME1 = 6, ME2 = 12.  Having "no inventory" (whole other issue) sure didn't stop us from having twice as many merchants on hub worlds, now did it?

People also have complained about the lack of activity on hub worlds in ME2, as compared to ME1.  Another misconception.  On ME1's Citadel, there were plenty of people walking around, but most of those people only walked in a straight line, back and forth.  It became transparent quickly.  Take the Asari in the yello dress outside the embassies.  I noticed her random pacing back and forth almost immediately and it ruined immersion, not added to it, to know that people are just walking in preset paths, not really going anywhere (to me at least).  There were very few little conversations you could overhear, refund guy being the most memorable.  Compare this to the quite large amounts of little snippets you can overhear in ME2.  In ME2's Citadel alone you have refund guy (again), the krogan wanting presidium fish (leads to a little sidequest), at least one conversation per shop (including the Zakera Cafe), the GameStop salarian, and the numerous advertisements and little easter eggs, like the Tupari machine.  That's not even counting all of the conversations that can be overheard on the other hub worlds.  So which is better, repetitive walking back and forth, or actual NPC dialogue?  Hmm.

Size is probably the one thing ME1 has over the ME2 hub worlds, and even then the difference is not that large if you compare total hub world space in both.  But I contend that it is mostly empty space, walking over bridges and down corridors, taking elevators and so-forth.  With nothing noteworthy going on in these empty spaces for the most part.  In ME2, hub world space is jam-packed full of NPCs (including low-res ones in the background) that talk or at least look like they're talking.  There isn't much empty space, and this adds to the illusion that the hubs are small.

There are probably little details that I missed in my comparison, feel free to point them out, as long as they are facts.  I just get riled up when people make mistakes like these and claim them as facts.

[timj2011]

You Sir, are correct.

[DTKT]

Here is my issue with that.



While Hubs were vast but empty in ME1, the ones in ME2 all feel incredibly small and lack purpose. I honestly did not consider Omega, Tutchanka or Illium has hub. To me, they are mission hubs. Finish the content in those places buy what you need and you never have to come back to it. They dont feel real or part of the Universe.



The Citadel itself was disappointing. It lacked the "grand" feeling that ME1 had.



I might sound critical but I loved the heck out of ME2.

[Ragnarok521]

I agree with DTKT's thought about ME2 hubs being more mission hubs rather than cohesive locations of the game universe, but I blame the compartmentalized structure of the game for disrupting the flow more than anything in that respect.

Really, as you previously noted wizard, the hub areas just have to be bigger and some connection must be shown between the hubs and the mission areas.

Modifié par Ragnarok521, 16 février 2011 - 09:07 .

[wizardryforever]

DTKT wrote...
To me, they are mission hubs. Finish the content in those places buy what you need and you never have to come back to it.

Well couldn't the same thing be said about the Citadel in ME1?  About the only reason you ever had to go back to the Citadel after completing all the content was to see if the shops had restocked.  Which incidentally happens with a few of the shops in ME2 as well.  Omega has restocking shops (for armor pieces) and I think Illium does as well.

[Burdokva]

You really missed the point here. Cumulative Mass Effect's hub world may be bigger and more detailed, but it's exactly because that they're not a single entity but small chunks, is what makes them feel small and cramped.



Here's a pretty boring example: if you have six small garage-sized apartments you'll still have a larger area than a single large one, but that doesn't change the fact that you still feel more cramped as an owner of six small ones than a single large one.

[wizardryforever]

Burdokva wrote...

You really missed the point here. Cumulative Mass Effect's hub world may be bigger and more detailed, but it's exactly because that they're not a single entity but small chunks, is what makes them feel small and cramped.

Here's a pretty boring example: if you have six small garage-sized apartments you'll still have a larger area than a single large one, but that doesn't change the fact that you still feel more cramped as an owner of six small ones than a single large one.

I'd take cramped and interesting over huge and boring anyday.  The hubs in ME2 actually felt like real places where real people lived.  The seedy feel of Omega, the gilded prosperity of Illium, the wasteland feel of Tuchanka all felt more like places and less like an empty field.

[95Headhunter]

Technically, you're spot on. But I don't think that tells the whole story.

Sure ME1's Citadel may have been mostly empty space, but it felt more real for it. Certainly, I contend that the Presidium is far prettier than most locations in ME2. And you know what the Wards had in 1 that they lacked in 2? Windows.

Sure, there's a few round the docking bay, but ME1 felt like you were on a gigantic space station. ME2 felt like you were in a shopping mall at night. There's a pretty obvious reason for that though. The Citadel was ME1's lynchpin. It was the centrepiece. It was the start of the game proper, and it was the location of the climactic battle. Of course it was going to feel more impressive in 1, it was almost as key a part of the story as the Normandy, or Shepard him/herself.

For the record, I love both games. I don't prefer one way of doing it to the other, like I said, all the points you raise are dead right. Doesn't stop me missing the presidium in 2, or Chora's Den, or the view from that window.

Modifié par 95Headhunter, 16 février 2011 - 09:15 .

[DTKT]

wizardryforever wrote...

DTKT wrote...
To me, they are mission hubs. Finish the content in those places buy what you need and you never have to come back to it.

Well couldn't the same thing be said about the Citadel in ME1?  About the only reason you ever had to go back to the Citadel after completing all the content was to see if the shops had restocked.  Which incidentally happens with a few of the shops in ME2 as well.  Omega has restocking shops (for armor pieces) and I think Illium does as well.

Both Omega and Illium had specific inventory I think. Once you bough everything, you seriously had no drive to go back there.

You are absolutely right, its the same template as in ME1, it's just that for me, in ME2, I didnt feel connected to any of the locations. They felt like a bus stop on the road, not really memorable or interesting to navigate but you still had to stop there. I'd argue that the single Hub of ME2 was your ship.

Of course, thats simply a consequence of the game pacing and the design behind ME2. There is no overarching story from which you can work to connect everything the wey ME1 did it. The flow of ME2 is designed to funnel you through levels as goalpoints. None of these levels are designed to be seen more than one or to be explored. You could say it's the equivalent of a corridor shooter. 

Look at it this way, in ME1, you "start" at the citadel and you finish at the citadel. In ME2, you "start" in your ship and you finish there. I think it's very telling in the change of storytelling/design fundamentals in both games.

At least, that's my own very tiny perception.

Modifié par DTKT, 16 février 2011 - 09:16 .

[glacier1701]

Also note that in ME2 on some of the "Hub" worlds that the crowds in the distance are static - Ilium especially the people above the bar and those opposite the stock exchange terminal. In fact if you look at the crowds the movement that seems to occur is the image being jiggled. Omega is the worst for this in terms of using a jiggling static image to portray a crowded bar.



Anyways the point as others have said is that while we may have MORE merchants the areas were smaller and cramped in ME2 compared to ME1. This is not to say that ME1 was perfect but considering the size of certain places you did feel as if that was somewhat true as you moved through them. Not so in ME2. It really did feel linear.

[Evil Johnny 666]

wizardryforever wrote...

DTKT wrote...
To me, they are mission hubs. Finish the content in those places buy what you need and you never have to come back to it.

Well couldn't the same thing be said about the Citadel in ME1?  About the only reason you ever had to go back to the Citadel after completing all the content was to see if the shops had restocked.  Which incidentally happens with a few of the shops in ME2 as well.  Omega has restocking shops (for armor pieces) and I think Illium does as well.

The ME wiki lists 33 quests for the ME1 Citadel... Hardly what I call empty.

And anyway, Bioware had to rush the game so we don't even have the real Therum, which was supposed to be at least a semi-hub world.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 16 février 2011 - 09:25 .

[wizardryforever]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

DTKT wrote...
To me, they are mission hubs. Finish the content in those places buy what you need and you never have to come back to it.

Well couldn't the same thing be said about the Citadel in ME1?  About the only reason you ever had to go back to the Citadel after completing all the content was to see if the shops had restocked.  Which incidentally happens with a few of the shops in ME2 as well.  Omega has restocking shops (for armor pieces) and I think Illium does as well.

The ME wiki lists 33 quests for the ME1 Citadel... Hardly what I call empty.

And anyway, Bioware had to rush the game so we don't even have the real Therum, which was supposed to be at least a semi-hub world.

Really, because I just counted it and there are 19 non-plot related missions on the Citadel, (you only get one background mission).  Compare the size of the place and the distance between people you can talk to (or listen to) and yes, it is comparitively empty.

[meh_cd]

None of them beat the original Mass Effect Citadel. They really neutered it for ME2.

As for Tuchanka, I have a real tough time calling that a true hub world. What are you going to do when you're done? Fight varren for hours on end? The Krogan all just stand there.

I will admit that Omega and Illium are nice, though. So I'll go 50/50 on this with ya.

Modifié par meh_cd, 16 février 2011 - 09:33 .

[wizardryforever]

meh_cd wrote...

None of them beat the original Mass Effect Citadel. They really neutered it for ME2.

Of course, individually, none of them are as large as the ME1 Citadel.  Look at them collectively, not individually and you'll see what I mean.  Far more stuff happens on ME2's collective hub worlds than it does in ME1's (which is really just the Citadel).

As for Tuchanka, I have a real tough time calling that a true hub world. What are you going to do when you're done? Fight varren for hours on end? The Krogan all just stand there.

I will admit that Omega and Illium are nice, though. So I'll go 50/50 on this with ya.

Tuchanka does have several NPCs to talk to, two merchants to buy from, and two minigames that are unique to it, as well as it's fair share of eavesdropping opportunities.  NPCs like the clan leader, the scout, the shaman, the mechanic, the Nakmoor ambassador, and the two merchants make it interesting.  The two minigames can be played endlessly, for those who like shooting pyjaks or betting on pit fights.  It's got more going on than you give it credit for.

[meh_cd]

Oh, I've done everything on Tuchanka. Once you've done all of the above, it becomes really bland IMHO.



I dunno, I was really excited to see Tuchanka, but when I did see it I was kind of disappointed with how BioWare decided to implement it.

[Taikis]

I thought Feros was a hub world too.



In a way.

[Il Divo]

I think this stems from Mass Effect's Citadel being so large with comparatively less content available. Yes, there is more than on Omega, etc, so many side quests. However, most are short and brief. I subscribe to the belief that a hub's content should be proportionaly as large/grand as the hub itself, which Mass Effect does not really allow (though Illium has problems in this regard as well).



Jade Empire is an example of a huge city brought to life: an incredibly large number of side quests, with several long chains as well (Imperial Arena, Scholar's Garden Debate, Bounties, etc).

[Sentox6]

Il Divo wrote...

Jade Empire is an example of a huge city brought to life: an incredibly large number of side quests, with several long chains as well (Imperial Arena, Scholar's Garden Debate, Bounties, etc).

A thousand times this.

To be fair, I think the SR-2 is really the true hub world in ME2. It's there that you get loyalty missions from your crew, which is the closest thing the game has to genuine side-quests.

[Stupidus]

None of these 'hub worlds' served any purpose other than being areas for other quests and were as such quite disappointing from ME1's citadel.



I missed butting into peoples' conversations, finding the Keepers, and stuff.



I hope in ME3 there is an always-happening ME3 citadel with daily quests and stuff. Nothing too srs but fun.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

wizardryforever wrote...
I'd take cramped and interesting over huge and boring anyday.  The hubs in ME2 actually felt like real places where real people lived.  The seedy feel of Omega, the gilded prosperity of Illium, the wasteland feel of Tuchanka all felt more like places and less like an empty field.

Why not have huge and interesting hub world(s) in ME3? The hub-world in ME1 had scale, but lacked detail. The reverse was true in ME2. They were detailed, but so small that you felt like you walked down a bunch of corridors.

[padaE]

I agree.

[Evil Johnny 666]

wizardryforever wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...


The ME wiki lists 33 quests for the ME1 Citadel... Hardly what I call empty.

And anyway, Bioware had to rush the game so we don't even have the real Therum, which was supposed to be at least a semi-hub world.

Really, because I just counted it and there are 19 non-plot related missions on the Citadel, (you only get one background mission).  Compare the size of the place and the distance between people you can talk to (or listen to) and yes, it is comparitively empty.

I counted all sub-quests and plot related (I think). I don't know why I shouldn't count them, since they help make the place more alive. You can't say the same thing for ME2, since the plot-related missions only ask you to talk to someone and get teleported to another area.

I loved Omega, but I was deeply dissatisfied with how small and uneventful it was. Eh, after a couple of playthrough I even noticed a quest I never done, something that could happen to me in ME1, but wouldn't feel missing. In ME2, I feel missing something when not doing everything. Side quests give me more of Ilium, but only temporarily, I can't return there and the hub itself isn't much bigger. The Afterlife felt like a corridor, I couldn't go anywhere at all. I would've hoped they tried to portray it more as in Ascension and make it feel much more dangerous. It's hard to do so when there's barely anywhere to go. ME1's Citadel offers you several distinct areas, with different things happening. It really helps much more to make the place more alive. The fact that you always had - or could - return to the Citadel made it much more alive. After getting Garrus and Mordin, there's not much reason to return to Omega, maybe except for finishing a side-quest or two.

As for Ilium, the 3/4 of what happens there is shooting your way out  from somewhere to somewhere else. The scenery was nice (particularly the Thane mission), but that was pretty much it.

[UKStory135]

***spoiler alert****









Would you all consider the Shadow Broker's Lair a hub world?

[wizardryforever]

Lizardviking wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...
I'd take cramped and interesting over huge and boring anyday.  The hubs in ME2 actually felt like real places where real people lived.  The seedy feel of Omega, the gilded prosperity of Illium, the wasteland feel of Tuchanka all felt more like places and less like an empty field.

Why not have huge and interesting hub world(s) in ME3? The hub-world in ME1 had scale, but lacked detail. The reverse was true in ME2. They were detailed, but so small that you felt like you walked down a bunch of corridors.

Ideally yes, that would be great.  The problem is the resources necessary to do that.  Something has to give in terms of development resources.  If the size of the worlds is reduced in order to focus on other stuff, I'm fine with that.  If the content of those worlds is reduced in order to make them artificially large, I'm not fine with that.

Really the thing is people want one huge hub rather than four medium sized ones.  Not sure why that is, as I prefer the variety, and I don't seem to understand why people say the hubs are "cramped."

[pumpkinman13]

DTKT wrote...

Here is my issue with that.

While Hubs were vast but empty in ME1, the ones in ME2 all feel incredibly small and lack purpose. I honestly did not consider Omega, Tutchanka or Illium has hub. To me, they are mission hubs. Finish the content in those places buy what you need and you never have to come back to it. They dont feel real or part of the Universe.

The Citadel itself was disappointing. It lacked the "grand" feeling that ME1 had.

I might sound critical but I loved the heck out of ME2.

This. How many fragging shops they have in comparison or the overall total space of the hubworlds put together are both second play to the feel and (imo more importantly) the size of the individual level itself. For such a massive urban cityscape, Illium was shockingly small. The mission up the skyscrapers to get Thane at least felt twice or three times as big as all the other Illium areas put together. Citadel was disappointing compared to the awesomeness of the Presidium and Wards... Although even then i remember when first playing ME1 I thought the wards could have been bigger... I mean there's five of these things that are humongous cities in their own right, it would have been truly epic if you could visit all five and each Ward had a different feel or style to it. Probably overkill though. Obviously it would have to be worked into the story and missions etc. Omega was tiny... it was basically one main area, half of which was a club, a quarter with the shops and apartment and the other quarter being the frontage to the club. The same goes for the Krogan homeworld in fact. It was actually just one tiny area which various missions branched off.

So IMO, an absolute MUST for ME3 is much MUCH larger areas/worlds.