85 réponses à ce sujet

[N7Infernox]

Obviously there's a lot of negativity going around about the Hub worlds...

My personal suggestions:

-add music

-make hub world's bigger, spread out key objective characters

-make non-plot-related NPC's move around

-bring back sports entertainment, like Kotor

-when Shepard's not in combat, pull the camera back even further, like ME1

[Mr. MannlyMan]

N7Infernox wrote...

Obviously there's a lot of negativity going around about the Hub worlds...
My personal suggestions:
-add music
-make hub world's bigger, spread out key objective characters
-make non-plot-related NPC's move around
-bring back sports entertainment, like Kotor
-when Shepard's not in combat, pull the camera back even further, like ME1

Music: YES. The conversations on the SR1 always felt more cinematic and natural with the ambient music. Conversations on the SR2 felt... less natural, somehow. It all has to do with cinematics; music helps a conversation flow more, sets the tone, etc., while not having that backdrop reduces the cinematic feel of such a scene. Illium, the SR2, and Zakera Ward all felt pretty lifeless without ambient music... you can bet that part of the reason people loved the Citadel in ME1 so much was because of the great music that characterized it. The Wards, Presidium, and the Citadel Tower... the ambient music provided character that wasn't evident in the visual design. Plus, as I pointed out with the SR1 example, ambient music helps make dialogue more cinematic.

Bigger: Oh yeah. But not ALL hub worlds; only where it makes sense. The Presidium and Illium, for example: big wide, open spaces to represent power and significance. Omega: closed alleyways, rows of shuttered windows and doors, bidges spanning the gaps between buildings, more of a labyrinth layout, etc.

NPC Movement: This. There were always NPCs moving around the Citadel in ME1; I don't think there were any in ME2? In any case, this would help the immersiveness of each location immensely (think of how cool Thane's loyalty mission was, and seeing the turian bureaucrat walking through groups of people).

Sports: I... don't support this. For the plain reason that Shepard would have no business playing sports when he's such a high-profile person in the ME world. If we're talking about car races and that sort of thing... I would rather a car-chase ala LotSB than a gimmicky minigame. Not to say that it's a bad idea, but it doesn't sound right when you think about it.

Distance Camera During Non-Combat: Hey, a more dynamic camera = more cinematic game IMO. This would also allow for a wider viewing angle, so I think it would be worth re-implementing.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 17 février 2011 - 10:16 .

[uberdowzen]

Just my 2 cents:



The hub worlds in Mass Effect 2 are more detailed than the Citadel in ME1 but the problem is that do feel tiny. ME2 should probably have focused on Omega (this is what I assumed they were doing pre-release) making it much larger but just as detailed as the other hub worlds.

[wizardryforever]

JKoopman wrote...

@Cra5y Pineapple:

Are you referring to me or the OP?

I just think it's ludicrous that someone would dismiss Port Hanshan and Zhu's Hope as not being "true hubs" when the fact is that both of them are equal to or larger than either the Zakera Ward, Omega or Nos Atra hubs in ME2, both in terms of size/square footage and number of assignments available.

Lets look at ME2. Nos Astra has the Trading Floor, Eternity Bar, Liara's Office, the Cargo Transport Terminal, and the Transportation Hub, with 3 missions and 2-5 assignments depending on previous actions. Omega has the Main Drag, Club Afterlife, Lower Afterlife, and the Markets, with 3 missions and 5 assignments.

Compare that to ME1. Port Hanshan had the Docking Bay, Plaza, Mezzanine, Synthetic Insights Offices and Garage, with 1 mission and 2 assignments available. Zhu's Hope had the Docking Bay, Colony, Tower, and Tunnels, with 1 mission and 5 assignments available.

How are the former "large full hub areas" but the later are "too small to be considered true hubs"? It seems to me that they're pretty much equal. And if the insignificant hub areas in ME1 are as large or larger than the real hubs in ME2--with as many or more assignments to offer--what does that say about ME2's hubs?

Since you seem to just be begging for this:


But in all seriousness, why does size matter so much more than content and ambiance?  As whatever posted earlier, on Illium alone there is a comparable amount of things to do as on the Citadel in ME1.  The only difference is that most of it is not actual sidequests, but simple atmosphere, something that was lacking in ME1, especially on the pseudo-hubs of Port Hanshan and Zhu's Hope.

A hub needs to be more than a one-off location that you go to; all ME2 hubs have at least two main missions linked to them, as compared to places like Feros, where you have no reason whatsoever to go back there after you complete the ONE mission it links to.  If this were not the case, then you could judge the Migrant Fleet to be a hub, which is not something that really counts as a hub, now does it?

And to all those pointing out merchants, note that I was counting the merchants on hub worlds, not merchants in general.  The Normandy is not a hub, nor is Virmire or Peak 15.  Even if you compare hard numbers however, ME2 still comes out on top (slightly).

Music is a good point, but sometimes the presence of music during dialogue can ruin the ambiance as easily as it can add to it.  If you want something that seems alive and realistic, then you should cut the music, right?  Since there is no ever-present music in real life when going to new cities.  Food for thought.

[Capeo]

The hub areas (I'm not going to call them worlds) feel, like all BW games, like wax museums. That's always been a major immersion killer for me and BW games. Nobody moves. There's no sense of time. That idiot has been waiting to get into Afterlife for weeks and that turian and quarian have been having the same exact conversation for days. Not to mention that salarian is apparently having the longest bachelor party in the history of the universe. Oh, and apparently I coincidentally land on these worlds at the same exact time of day no matter how many times I go there. Do these people never sleep? Why have automated kiosks if some dope is going to stand behind the counter for the rest of his life? The hub areas need a lot of work to come even close to giving the illusion of living, working city that so many other modern games achieve.

[JKoopman]

wizardryforever wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

@Cra5y Pineapple:

Are you referring to me or the OP?

I just think it's ludicrous that someone would dismiss Port Hanshan and Zhu's Hope as not being "true hubs" when the fact is that both of them are equal to or larger than either the Zakera Ward, Omega or Nos Atra hubs in ME2, both in terms of size/square footage and number of assignments available.

Lets look at ME2. Nos Astra has the Trading Floor, Eternity Bar, Liara's Office, the Cargo Transport Terminal, and the Transportation Hub, with 3 missions and 2-5 assignments depending on previous actions. Omega has the Main Drag, Club Afterlife, Lower Afterlife, and the Markets, with 3 missions and 5 assignments.

Compare that to ME1. Port Hanshan had the Docking Bay, Plaza, Mezzanine, Synthetic Insights Offices and Garage, with 1 mission and 2 assignments available. Zhu's Hope had the Docking Bay, Colony, Tower, and Tunnels, with 1 mission and 5 assignments available.

How are the former "large full hub areas" but the later are "too small to be considered true hubs"? It seems to me that they're pretty much equal. And if the insignificant hub areas in ME1 are as large or larger than the real hubs in ME2--with as many or more assignments to offer--what does that say about ME2's hubs?

Since you seem to just be begging for this:


But in all seriousness, why does size matter so much more than content and ambiance?

Where did I indicate that I was speaking of size alone? In point of fact, I specifically indicated that I was juding on size and content.

Since you apparently weren't paying attention the first time, I'll point it out again.

Zhu's Hope: 4 distinct areas, 1 plot mission, 5 optional assignments
Omega: 4 distinct areas, 3 plot missions, 4 optional assignments

What makes the former a "psuedo-hub" and the later a "full hub world"?

NOTE: Since I'm sure you'll point it out, I don't consider the Omega: Aria T'Loak mission and the Omega: Archangel: Datapad Recovered assignment to be valid missions/assignments. In the case of the former, the "mission" is walking from the Normandy airlock into Club Afterlife and saying two lines to Aria (why that's considered to be it's own separate mission, I don't know), and the later is something acquired during Garrus' recruitment mission and simply delivered to Aria back in the Omega hub.

Let's also take a look at the content of those missions and assignments. On Zhu's Hope, you would speak with a few of the colonists and recieve an assignment to replenish the colony's food supply or find out why the water was no longer running. This would require going all the way down into the tunnels beneath the colony, fighting through waves of geth, finding the pack of varren and eliminating them or turning on the three separate water pumping stations (which incidentally led you right to Ian Newstead hiding in the tunnels and some additional content and dialog). On Illium, you speak with the slave broker and receive an assignment to help her find employment for her quarian slave. This requires nothing more than literally walking 10 ft to the other side of the bar to speak with the Synthetic Insights rep, then walking 10 ft back to the slave broker with her answer. Can you really compare those two assignments on a 1:1 basis?

The same is true of missions. A single mission in ME1 had about 2-3 times more content than an average mission in ME2. You can't just compare the raw numbers and say "this hub in ME2 had 2 more missions and x more assignments" without comparing the content of those missions and assignments. I'd much rather have 2-3 lengthy and comprehensive assignments than 5 assignments that can be done is as many minutes and require nothing more than walking a few feet to talk with someone.

That the sole defining criteria for you seems to be the number of plot-central missions does not make it the defacto standard for determining what makes a hub. To me, a hub is a safe area that you can return to at any time with optional sidequests, preferrably with at least one merchant. Otherwise it's not a hub, it's just a "pre-mission area". Both Zhu's Hope and Port Hanshan fit that criteria. That there's only 1 plot-central mission on Feros and Noveria and that Omega and Nos Astra have 3 means nothing more to me than that Omega and Nos Astra have 2 more "big assignments". It's a point in their favor, but it doesn't put them in some exclusive club; especially when that one mission on Feros or Noveria may very well be worth 2 or 3 missions in ME2.

Do I consider the Migrant Fleet in ME2 to be a hub? No. It's a safe area but it has no optional assignments and no merchant. Do I consider the Virmire camp in ME1 to be a hub? No. It's a safe area with a merchant, but it has no optional assignments and you can't return to it later. Do I consider Peak 15 in ME1 to be a hub? No. It's a (relatively) safe area with a merchant and an optional sidequest, but you can't return to it later. You see what I'm getting at?

wizardryforever wrote...

As whatever posted earlier, on Illium alone there is a comparable amount of things to do as on the Citadel in ME1.  The only difference is that most of it is not actual sidequests, but simple atmosphere, something that was lacking in ME1, especially on the pseudo-hubs of Port Hanshan and Zhu's Hope.

No, it doesn't. The idea that Nos Astra has in any way a comparable amount of content to the 30 assignments and who-knows-how-many interactive NPCs on the Citadel in ME1 is just a ridiculous and desperate straw grab.

wizardryforever wrote...

A hub needs to be more than a one-off location that you go to; all ME2 hubs have at least two main missions linked to them, as compared to places like Feros, where you have no reason whatsoever to go back there after you complete the ONE mission it links to.  If this were not the case, then you could judge the Migrant Fleet to be a hub, which is not something that really counts as a hub, now does it?

You have a reason to go back to both Port Hanshan and Zhu's Hope well after completing all relevant missions and assignments there if nothing else than to check which items their respective merchants have added between main missions. What reason do you have to ever--at any point--return to Zakera Ward or Omega or Nos Astra after completing their respective recruitment/loyalty missions, cleaning out their shops and taking care of the handful of assignments available? They effectively become barren wastelands after that, with no one to talk to, nothing to buy and nothing to do.

Number of missions is meaningless to me. You could make an empty room with 6 doors that connects to a half dozen plot-central missions, but would that make it a hub? A hub is about atmosphere and immersion. A hub is something that feels like a real place where people can live and work, not just a conveniently layed-out corridor that funnels you to your next mission.

Modifié par JKoopman, 18 février 2011 - 12:42 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

JKoopman wrote...

@Cra5y Pineapple:

Are you referring to me or the OP?

The OP.

And I agree with the poster a few scrolls up. Size matters not.

[Frraksurred]

You are correct in many things Wizard, and I enjoyed your post.  The Hub characters, NPC's and locals were greater and more interesting in some regards in ME2.  I think the complaints are more associated with the feel, connectivity and grandeur that was lost in the streamlining from ME1 to ME2.

ME1 felt epic.  Though the locals may not have offered as much NPC dialogues, they felt more like story moving missions then check list missions.  There was a great deal of story in ME2, don't get me wrong, but it's compartmentizing sacrificed the grandeur and "feel" that you were experiencing something bigger then yourself.

The Citadel in ME1 may have had less going on, but it felt epic.  Landing there and looking out at it all left me with a "wow" moment.  In ME2 it felt like I spent my whole time wandering around a Mall.  There was more there, but it bored me.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I am saying I would like to see the things added in ME2 mixed with the Gradeur and connectivity of ME1.  That would return the "wow" that many feel was lost.

[DTKT]

One other thing to add regarding the "connection" between all of ME2 parts.



One of the design decision that I personnaly think was I mistake was the addition of the "Mission Report" sequence. I think it broke the fluidity and the feeling of continuity between any level and a "Hub".



I believe it doesn't have it's place in ME3.

[Evil Johnny 666]

wizardryforever wrote...



But in all seriousness, why does size matter so much more than content and ambiance?  As whatever posted earlier, on Illium alone there is a comparable amount of things to do as on the Citadel in ME1.  The only difference is that most of it is not actual sidequests, but simple atmosphere, something that was lacking in ME1, especially on the pseudo-hubs of Port Hanshan and Zhu's Hope.

I totally disagree. I don't see how there was less atmosphere in Port Hanshan and Zhu's Hope. They were less stylish, yes, but that means nothing, as their looks perfectly describe the place. Port Hanshan is a port in a sort of recluse, almost inhabitated planet with less than idea climactic conditions. Basically, it was never meant as a particularly interesting place, but as an administrative center of the place and a hub for people going to Peak 15. And it did very well to feel like a port in a desolate place. Big huge windows through which you saw nothing but a permanent snowstorm. The place was also designed in a much more functional way. No real tourists would get there or whoever else, thus there was no point into making the place more than something it would serve for. Add to this that it was constructed on a desolate planet by corporate people because for scientific research (on the contrary of Omega being built on a rock and being run by mercs and such, which of course reflected its look), and there's no reason Port Hanshan should have been more than it is. Maybe you can find a place less atmospheric, but atmosphere isn't that important if you cover a purpose. But again, like I said, Port Hanshan doesn't lack atmosphere - don't you find the style deprived place with a view on a permanent snowstorm atmospheric? Don't you feel on a desolate planet (walking around you already know what to expect of outside, and of Peak 15), somewhere that feels too clean and other things? I find all this to breathe a certain atmosphere, just not one of "in the face stylish".

Same with Zhu's Hope. It's a colony based on ruins, on Prothean ruins of all types of ruins. Doesn't the place ooze mystery, eerieness and emptiness, a small colony based on a huge abandoned Prothean city? How isn't that atmospheric? And the Citadel was certainly atmospheric, both the Presidium and the Wards, I really shouldn't get in details.

The problem with ME2's hub worlds, is that you both want to return there - as much as I like ME1's, why would you return there after doing all your assingments there? They're all places far away - and they're too small to really support that satisfyingly. Well, wanting to return to those places have much to do with the fact they're real habitated cities. They'd be much off with a size comparable to ME1's Citadel. Even if ME1's hub worlds were still relatively small in those safe places, they served their purpose pretty well. And ME1's Citadel served its purpose pretty well too, which necessitated a bigger area which you could return to do many things if you wanted too (and probably don't need to find things to do) so it really feels like an alive highly inhabitated place. But as much as ME2's hub worlds are detailed, they feel like glorified corridors with only a couple of things to do. Even if there may be more things to do after doing all missions you had to do there, even if you'd want to return, you don't necessarily feel like returning as you know you won't be doing much and what you'll do will only be talking to a couple of people.

Even if size don't always (always being a key word) matter, it helps give purpose and feel to a place. As much as Omega and Ilium are very good looking and atmospheric places, then being highly inhabitated and important cities too, it only makes their lack of size even more obvious. Their size should match their purpose (at least in proportions), and it's something I highly feel ME2 is lacking. Take the Citadel again, how can you represent such a huge, important station with merely a couple of small floors in one Ward? It's hard not to feel disappointed even in your first playthrough. Same with Omega, which I immediately felt too small. First thing I wanted to do when getting in the Afterlife, was walking around the place, unfortunately, the only thing you could do is walk through the (small) place. And there wasn't that much to do either, as much as the place looked very good - and it worked to its detriment here - you wanted to go beyond where you were and do more than you were offered. ME1's Citadel had two, big distinct areas, each hub world in ME2 has only one, and it shows. Those areas don't feel like really representing the scope of there places, you felt like they were holding up some stuff from you, except they weren't even doing that. They felt like teasers. The other ME1 places didn't feel lacking, as they felt like places you'd go there to get through, except you would take the time to do a couple of things. ME2's places feel like places to stay, but ultimately only to get through for your missions. And it's not like Bioware couldn't do more than one big place, just check the KOTOR games.

[TekFanX]

I've got to admit: I prefer the ME1-hubs above the ME2-hubs.
Size is secondary, NPC-movement significant but the most important part ist the credibility.

Examples:
Citadel ME1:
You land at a docking-area especially booked by the alliance-military.
As for being military personell, you have to check back with the c-sec.
The c-sec has it's own 'sector', complete with offices and the flight-control(/tower, whatever you want to call it.) It felt bigger, impenetrable.
Really like a mixture of police and military.
From this you can either go to the shopping-sector or presidium, as such a organisation would be located to reach both areas fast.
The shops were located in an area with two clubs, representing upper and lower social levels.
In my opinion this represented a much better shopping-district, attracting both groups of costumers.
Last but not least comes the Presidium: Big, noble and yet political. Only a shop with high-class-equipment could afford to be here.
We've got the equivalent of a psychiatrist(consort), a bank and a cafe/bar we could visit. It was ostentatious, but what could be expected from a district as the presidium?

Now in ME2: The main-area we can visit feels more like the main-building of an airport with shops and a small club.
But the most friggin fail I've got to blame BioWare for is the C-Sec-office in ME2.
Seriously, It's saddening: Bailey is one of the essential characters in ME2(at least he has his own comic), plus he connects us to several side-missions.
He is the Captain of a whole ward!
And he sits there, in a small, cramped office, easy to get shot by a passing criminal(and don't tell me there would be no guns at the citadel: Krios Jr. could get one and he's not even close to the abilities of most criminals there).
In ME1 a criminal had to reach the presidium before he could attack the big fish of the c-sec.
Someone dealing with the lesser criminals(drug-dealers, gangs, etc.) is supposed to be in a niche?!
Sorry, but ME2's c-sec is nothing more than a security-station at the airport, not even close to a police-like organisation protecting a place as big as NYC.
And I don't know if BioWare has lost the ability to create believeable scenics at some point, because you can see a vast emptiness in the industrial-district(after the bridge you must lower down in order to get to the place with the first YMIR, just look down at the right of the bridge) that reminds me painfully of the empty space you get in a modding-tool.

Feros: Feros was realistic in it's unremarkable design. There is a colony, all they needed was a vast space to build some habitats on. The ruins themself were peripherical for them, still there were scientists in other buildings, researching the ruins.
The first stages of a settlement(I liked both human colonies in ME2 too like they've been, but they were just mission-settings, no hubs).

Noveria: No one trusts anyone, the whole world is telling you this simple idea.
There is one shop and a 'recreational area'/club. It's not supposed to be charming, it's nothing but a climatized bunker for business-men/women. In my opinion it appears to be true to that.

And now about ME2:
First off: Omega:
Could someone please tell me why the Afterlive-club, the beating heart of a space-station full of criminals is directly in front of one of the thousand unremarkable docking-stations for ships?
Close to a small, unremarkable slum with vorcha, a pseudo-asiatic food-shop and some shops with a quarian not even able to pay his way off the station?
There has to be even some social hierarchy on a space station full of criminals.
Only people who can afford Aria T'Loaks fees should be able to have a business around her club.
A club like Afterlive should connect to everything so Aria's men can reach their destination as fast as possible on many routes, not just with a small shuttle-port.
For me this is like BioWare thought of some nice locations, thought it was too costly to design them all and so just took some small chunks and cramped them together like a child would squish together some Play Doh around one of it's toys.

Illium: I'm not that critical about this. The part we see just deosn't feel like the most important part of Illium, more like a small chunk, unable to represent the glorious and glamorous identity of the Asari.
The hotel in the SB-DLC otherwise is a better representation, I think: Illiums dark side(who has seen the big screen knows what I mean) and the ostentatious design I'd expect from the asari.

Tuchanka(based on the way it looks if Wrex rules it):
It's overall design pretty much represents the ruin of a civilisation, but that's all it does: Representing. It's like a picture of Tuchanka, not like a real living world that RPG's should try to pretend.
For example there is not even a door, leading to the camp-part with the hostages from other clans.
Who cares if it wouldn't open, it should at least exist. Close to Wrex, so hostages can be executed if their clan attacks(sounds grim if I write this down, but what else would they do to hostages on Tuchanka?).
Camp-Urdnot doesn't really feel like I'd expected the krogan homeworld.
It's vast and open, although even Grunt declares this as a weakness of human ships.
For Camp Urdnot I'd rather had expected a large underground-bunker without any windows and lot's of places where you can bunker down for a fire-fight if a hostile clan should be able to get in.
We get that for the landing of the shuttle and then two large bomb-doors...and then we look out into the ruin of a parking-deck? With lot's of room for a missile to fly through?

That's my opinion at last. You don't have to agree.

Modifié par TekFanX, 19 février 2011 - 03:14 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

*slow clap*

OP... you are so right!

Modifié par xxSgt_Reed_24xx, 19 février 2011 - 03:31 .

[Whatever42]

TekFanX, I won't agree. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, sure. And my feelings are just as subjective as yours so arguing which one is better is largely pointless.

However, I will say that you seem to be nitpicking to a silly degree. You think Baily should be fortified away because apparently the ward is a warzone? I don't think its quite that bad. Tchunka fails because Wrex doesn't have the hostages close at hand? Just an FYI, "hostages" in the political sense are not imprisoned away but simply live with the other political faction. They usually have considerable freedoms.

And you did know that there was a back way out of Afterlife, right?

And in my very subjective opinion, Illium was amazing. The cityscapes from the landing area, from the thane recruitment mission were amazing. I loved all the holographic screens with scrolling information. For me, it was easily as epic as the Citadel.

I could pick on the Citadel as well. Are you telling me with all that empty space, important species like the Volus and Elcor share an embassy while a prostitute gets a massive club? Give me a break. See how easy that is? Or that the council chambers has this massive halls, which is completely empty, that leads up to this little area where the councillors have to stand? What is the whole purpose of that? The volus can't haven an embassy but you can waste space like that?

I will offer one criticism of ME2 - completely subjective - is that landing on the Citadel was a let down. The Citadel in ME1 gave you a large open area and in ME2 it was just a shopping mall. Being cut off from the rest of the Citadel was a let down. I don't find anything wrong with what was there, its simply that I wanted my old Citadel too.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 19 février 2011 - 03:33 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I could pick on the Citadel as well. Are you telling me with all that empty space, important species like the Volus and Elcor share an embassy while a prostitute gets a massive club? Give me a break. See how easy that is? Or that the council chambers has this massive halls, which is completely empty, that leads up to this little area where the councillors have to stand? What is the whole purpose of that? The volus can't haven an embassy but you can waste space like that?

You wanted to be able to get in all these unremarkable - probably off-limits - offices in the council tower? There's a reason it feels like "empty space", because it was not worth to make the place fully explorable. What would you have preferred, a small office right out of the elevator so you don't feel getting through empty space? It's a council chamber and looks like a council chamber.

And seriously, you shouldn't judge a place based solely on their looks. Yes Ilium looks terrific, but that doesn't make it a better space for that much. If the ME1 Citadel had no textures and two times more things to do and less "wasted space", an empty Ilium wouldn't be better just because it looks "better".

[Whatever42]

But it doesn't look like a council chamber. Its a huge, long hallway filled with ugly trees with a throne like area at the end. Its like they set up court in an ugly park. But in reality, I didn't care. I thought the design was cool to look at it and didn't overanalyze it looking for things that were "wrong". Which is what some posters do when looking for things that are "wrong" in ME2.

And the Citadel did not have twice as much to do. It had a few more trivial running around missions, and they did last longer because they did make you run around so much more, but throw in the 4 big missions of Illium and the amount of time questing there is far, far more than the Citadel.

In every way, Illium is a better hub than the Citadel. Still, I understand why some people may like the Citadel better - becoming a spectre, dealing with the council, the huge spaces, recruiting some great characters. I understand completely why someone would treasure their experience at the citadel more than a planet like Illium; it's merely when they objectively try to "prove" why the Citadel is better that they stretch things too far and it gets silly.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 19 février 2011 - 04:56 .

[AlanC9]

I don't think Ilium's actually longer than the Citadel. I timed myself through ME1 and ME2 runs. All Citadel content combined before the endgame took about 6-1/2 hours. That's a little longer than all Ilium missions combined took me, and I blew off a few of the dumber Citadel sidequests.



I agree with the general point, though. Unless you just like wandering around in simulated spaces -- some RPG players like that sort of thing -- the ME1 Citadel wasn't all that great.

[Whatever42]

AlanC9 wrote...

I don't think Ilium's actually longer than the Citadel. I timed myself through ME1 and ME2 runs. All Citadel content combined before the endgame took about 6-1/2 hours. That's a little longer than all Ilium missions combined took me, and I blew off a few of the dumber Citadel sidequests.

I agree with the general point, though. Unless you just like wandering around in simulated spaces -- some RPG players like that sort of thing -- the ME1 Citadel wasn't all that great.

Fair enough. After several playthroughs, I race through the citadel stuff pretty fast now - most of the questing is running back and forth and if you arrange your missions correctly, you save a lot of time. Talk to ambassador, get consort quests, go to council, hit flux's and talk to sister, talk to emily wong, hit chora's den and talk with people, hit med clinic, hit csec, hit chora's den and kill everyone, back to council, back to embassies, talk to grieving husband, get body, talk to amassadors, back to consort, etc. And all along the way,  scan keepers.

I probably don't spend more than 2 hours in the citadel and that's 100% completion and listening to the dialogue. Maybe its longer but its pretty fast.  Illium is slower because while you're running around, people are always trying to kill you.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And the Citadel did not have twice as much to do. It had a few more trivial running around missions, and they did last longer because they did make you run around so much more, but throw in the 4 big missions of Illium and the amount of time questing there is far, far more than the Citadel.

Ridiculous. How many years since you played ME1? Plus, those 4 big missions of Ilium don't happen in the actual hub place, so they don't count. You can't return there, they aren't connected to the whole place and are basically a huge long corridor where you did nothing but shoot your way through. Go to the Mass Effect wiki, and compare the numbers, ME1's citadel as a couple of times more things to do. And trivial running around... yeah, because simply shooting your way through a corridor is any less trivial doing doing actuall RPG questing...

[Whatever42]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And the Citadel did not have twice as much to do. It had a few more trivial running around missions, and they did last longer because they did make you run around so much more, but throw in the 4 big missions of Illium and the amount of time questing there is far, far more than the Citadel.

Ridiculous. How many years since you played ME1? Plus, those 4 big missions of Ilium don't happen in the actual hub place, so they don't count. You can't return there, they aren't connected to the whole place and are basically a huge long corridor where you did nothing but shoot your way through. Go to the Mass Effect wiki, and compare the numbers, ME1's citadel as a couple of times more things to do. And trivial running around... yeah, because simply shooting your way through a corridor is any less trivial doing doing actuall RPG questing...

So we're going to define hubs as simply a place where you can pick up brief 2 minute fetch and carry quests? Nonsense. So if you could return to those spaces and wander around the now empty office towers then it would count? You're just trying to set arbitrary terms to support your argument.

And they are not big long corridors, one was an office building with a very cool bridge fight. Another was in some shipping yard with conveyer belts. Another was on some docks and had a gunship fight. And all that scenery was far more interesting that yet another long empty corridor in the citadel.

And if you find running back and forth up empty corridors more fun than fighting then I wonder what kind of games you find fun.

[Marta Rio]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And if you find running back and forth up empty corridors more fun than fighting then I wonder what kind of games you find fun.

Fallout 3 is a personal favorite of mine, and it certainly involves a lot of running around empty wasteland.  Different strokes for different folks, and all that. 

[Whatever42]

Marta Rio wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And if you find running back and forth up empty corridors more fun than fighting then I wonder what kind of games you find fun.

Fallout 3 is a personal favorite of mine, and it certainly involves a lot of running around empty wasteland.  Different strokes for different folks, and all that. 

I enjoy Fallout 3 very much. But in FO3, you got beat on every 2 steps. Those wastelands were not empty!  I deliberately learned stealth early because you needed to constantly fight form point A to point B through wandering monsters and I often just wanted to get my quest done. And escort missions could be nasty without fast travel!

[ArchDemonXIII]

I think my main beef with the hubs in ME2 was that each one had a dedicated Mission Dispense-O-Matic (Aria, Bailey,Liara. Krogan chief not so much) I wish it was more like Tuchanka where at least for Mordin's loyalty, you could go right to the scout. How much cooler would it have been to find Mouse or Fade with, y'know, detective work and have Bailey as a fast track if you so choose? Also, where's my damn shootouts in public places? (otherwise known as an actual purpose for having a holster command instead of something like.. I don't know... crouch, maybe?)

[Evil Johnny 666]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Ridiculous. How many years since you played ME1? Plus, those 4 big missions of Ilium don't happen in the actual hub place, so they don't count. You can't return there, they aren't connected to the whole place and are basically a huge long corridor where you did nothing but shoot your way through. Go to the Mass Effect wiki, and compare the numbers, ME1's citadel as a couple of times more things to do. And trivial running around... yeah, because simply shooting your way through a corridor is any less trivial doing doing actuall RPG questing...

So we're going to define hubs as simply a place where you can pick up brief 2 minute fetch and carry quests? Nonsense. So if you could return to those spaces and wander around the now empty office towers then it would count? You're just trying to set arbitrary terms to support your argument.

There's a reason why there's areas where you can return to or not in ME2. Plus, there's more than one quest in the office towers, it's not a fetch and carry quest you do and then you can't return to the place. There's 33 quests in a lot less than 33 areas, while there is ONE quest in each of those places you can't return. And those areas, like I said, are not built to be hub areas, but are built to be run through, they're huge corridors to shoot your way through. That's a big difference and easily disqualifies those areas to count as taking part of the hub place. Plus, you can say you don't like typical RPG quests all you want, but that's basically defines what a hub place is. Otherwise it would be just a mission, which is what all those areas you can't return to are. Hub worlds belong to RPGs, missions belong to shooters.

And they are not big long corridors, one was an office building with a very cool bridge fight. Another was in some shipping yard with conveyer belts. Another was on some docks and had a gunship fight. And all that scenery was far more interesting that yet another long empty corridor in the citadel.

hahaha, you gotta be kidding. How the hell are those LONG corridors not more empty than any Citadel area? Enemies don't count. Those areas can be detailed all they want, they are disguised corridors no matter what. Open areas are just less obvious. You can't do anything but go on. Oh no, I was wrong, from time to time, there's a room along the way or a tiny little corridor that goes to a element zero box... certainly not just a long corridor anymore. Look at Peak 15, it was built as a research station. It was not one long corridor, but plenty of ones that went into a dead end, entertwined themselves, got into rooms with more of those corridors that made you get somewhere else. ME2 missions are nothing more than a giant corridor with a bunch of little dead-ends along the way.

And if you find running back and forth up empty corridors more fun than fighting then I wonder what kind of games you find fun.

There's not much difference between running back and forth up empty corridors and always running up empty corridors shooting your way in the most automated manner ever. ME2's combat was fun the first hour or two, but even I got bored on my first squad mate finding mission so much the shooting is repetitive and the level design shallow. I find it funny you don't like simply running through "empty corridors" while the only thing you do in an ME2 mission run through corridors shooting your way out the very same encounters again, and again, and again. At least ME1 assignments made you do talk to people a bit more and do something else than shooting. Hell, just compare with ME1 missions. The level design was far superior, there was as much talking is not more, it was way less repetitve and were filled with little assigments here and there. In ME2, there's nothing besides hacking, decrypting and the very occasional conversation to break up the monotony of combat - and that would be considering decrypting and hacking no incredibly monotonous and tedious.

[TekFanX]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

TekFanX, I won't agree. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, sure. And my feelings are just as subjective as yours so arguing which one is better is largely pointless.

Of course, I won't deny that the impressions are subjective. So don't get me wrong: The following is not about forcing you into believing my opinions, it's rather just an answer.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
However, I will say that you seem to be nitpicking to a silly degree. You think Baily should be fortified away because apparently the ward is a warzone? I don't think its quite that bad. Tchunka fails because Wrex doesn't have the hostages close at hand? Just an FYI, "hostages" in the political sense are not imprisoned away but simply live with the other political faction. They usually have considerable freedoms.

First off: If you don't share the point of view I'm taking on the design, please don't use words as 'silly'. This word tends to insult. I don't feel insulted about it, but I'd prefer other formulations.
About Bailey: No, he shouldn't be fortified, but then again I think a man with such an important and extensive role as the c-sec-captain of a whole ward should at least have a larger department and at least a door.
Once again: He's responsible for the c-sec of a whole ward he compares to NYC. And I doubt it's appropriate for him to do his job from a niche not larger than the security-pass of an airport.
There's nothing about fortifying him away.
Now Tuchanka: I don't know how Wrex treats the hostages, I give you that, but then again you completely ignore my argument of urdnot inhabiting a large, open building, while Grunt declares this as a weakness.
Overall the Camp appears to me like they just moved in, not like it's the center of an operation affecting multiple krogan clans.
With the warrior-aura the krogan possess, I'd have  expected something more military with fortified positions.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And you did know that there was a back way out of Afterlife, right?

Of course. I didn't complain about the building itself but about it's location.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
And in my very subjective opinion, Illium was amazing. The cityscapes from the landing area, from the thane recruitment mission were amazing. I loved all the holographic screens with scrolling information. For me, it was easily as epic as the Citadel.

Don't get me wrong, I like Illium, but it doesn't represent the whole planet for me.
Everything we see is rather functional, no costly materials to give us a flavour of an asari-world.
IMHO(only including the hub-part, not the missions or the DLC):All we get to see is the business-part of Illium. We can see the skyscrapers in the distance, but we're bound to a stock-market with a few shops, a bar and a small traveling-terminal.
If we got the opportunity to visit the hotel from the DLC at any time, with some NPC's to talk to I'd be thrilled and wouldn't complain the slightest about the hub of Illium.
If it's as impressive as the citadel for you, I don't want to minder that, I just don't share it.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I could pick on the Citadel as well. Are you telling me with all that empty space, important species like the Volus and Elcor share an embassy while a prostitute gets a massive club? Give me a break. See how easy that is? Or that the council chambers has this massive halls, which is completely empty, that leads up to this little area where the councillors have to stand? What is the whole purpose of that? The volus can't haven an embassy but you can waste space like that?

I want to ask you: What is this part of your post supposed to tell me? The phrase ''See how easy that is?' makes me think you just want to try to discredit all things I mentioned by picking out things randomly.
In that case I must say you share a rather ignorant attitude towards opinions differing from your's.
If that's not the case and I mistook your words, I apologize and want to answer on the things you don't seem to like about the ME1-citadel:
On the consort and her 'club': The whole thing is about influence. The consort means a lot to many people and knows a lot of secrets some people might fear the consort could make public. In short: She has a lot of influence towards the people deciding how the rooms of the presidium are used.
And I don't know if you read the me1-codex, but as far as I remember, it states that only the most important races get an ambassy at all.
Some wait hundreds of years for an ambassy(something that represents the importance of humanity in the me-universe).
You mention the Volus and Elcor as important, I won't argue on that, since it's subjective for your case.
But given the facts from ME1 they aren't important enough to give each race it's own embassy.
On the council-chambers: Take Ashley, Wrex or Garrus with you, they will state some facts which might interest you.
Also the first ME-novel gives some architectic background on that.
In short: The whole council-chambers are made to dwarf anyone who comes in, showing how small you are and how important the council is. In this role it's also easy to defend.
You now could say this should apply to the urdnot-camp as well, I won't argue on that. But for me this implies a political strategy I don't really think the krogan prefer(again, this is all subjective from my point of view).

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
I will offer one criticism of ME2 - completely subjective - is that landing on the Citadel was a let down. The Citadel in ME1 gave you a large open area and in ME2 it was just a shopping mall. Being cut off from the rest of the Citadel was a let down. I don't find anything wrong with what was there, its simply that I wanted my old Citadel too.

Apart from the c-sec-station I agree with you: It would be nice for a mall on the Citadel, but it lacks the old parts of the Citadel.

Modifié par TekFanX, 19 février 2011 - 09:11 .

[Whatever42]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Ridiculous. How many years since you played ME1? Plus, those 4 big missions of Ilium don't happen in the actual hub place, so they don't count. You can't return there, they aren't connected to the whole place and are basically a huge long corridor where you did nothing but shoot your way through. Go to the Mass Effect wiki, and compare the numbers, ME1's citadel as a couple of times more things to do. And trivial running around... yeah, because simply shooting your way through a corridor is any less trivial doing doing actuall RPG questing...

So we're going to define hubs as simply a place where you can pick up brief 2 minute fetch and carry quests? Nonsense. So if you could return to those spaces and wander around the now empty office towers then it would count? You're just trying to set arbitrary terms to support your argument.

There's a reason why there's areas where you can return to or not in ME2. Plus, there's more than one quest in the office towers, it's not a fetch and carry quest you do and then you can't return to the place. There's 33 quests in a lot less than 33 areas, while there is ONE quest in each of those places you can't return. And those areas, like I said, are not built to be hub areas, but are built to be run through, they're huge corridors to shoot your way through. That's a big difference and easily disqualifies those areas to count as taking part of the hub place. Plus, you can say you don't like typical RPG quests all you want, but that's basically defines what a hub place is. Otherwise it would be just a mission, which is what all those areas you can't return to are. Hub worlds belong to RPGs, missions belong to shooters.

And they are not big long corridors, one was an office building with a very cool bridge fight. Another was in some shipping yard with conveyer belts. Another was on some docks and had a gunship fight. And all that scenery was far more interesting that yet another long empty corridor in the citadel.

hahaha, you gotta be kidding. How the hell are those LONG corridors not more empty than any Citadel area? Enemies don't count. Those areas can be detailed all they want, they are disguised corridors no matter what. Open areas are just less obvious. You can't do anything but go on. Oh no, I was wrong, from time to time, there's a room along the way or a tiny little corridor that goes to a element zero box... certainly not just a long corridor anymore. Look at Peak 15, it was built as a research station. It was not one long corridor, but plenty of ones that went into a dead end, entertwined themselves, got into rooms with more of those corridors that made you get somewhere else. ME2 missions are nothing more than a giant corridor with a bunch of little dead-ends along the way.

And if you find running back and forth up empty corridors more fun than fighting then I wonder what kind of games you find fun.

There's not much difference between running back and forth up empty corridors and always running up empty corridors shooting your way in the most automated manner ever. ME2's combat was fun the first hour or two, but even I got bored on my first squad mate finding mission so much the shooting is repetitive and the level design shallow. I find it funny you don't like simply running through "empty corridors" while the only thing you do in an ME2 mission run through corridors shooting your way out the very same encounters again, and again, and again. At least ME1 assignments made you do talk to people a bit more and do something else than shooting. Hell, just compare with ME1 missions. The level design was far superior, there was as much talking is not more, it was way less repetitve and were filled with little assigments here and there. In ME2, there's nothing besides hacking, decrypting and the very occasional conversation to break up the monotony of combat - and that would be considering decrypting and hacking no incredibly monotonous and tedious.

There are more lines of dialogue in ME2 than ME1. And apparently since you hate all shooter game play and see zero difference between fighting and runing back and forth then you are clearly playing the wrong series. Both ME1 and ME2 are shooters. Both have mini-games. Both have cover systems. If you hate that then you're playing the wrong games.

And I'm not against side quests

As far as level design, Illium had a brilliant city scape. It had holograhic data displays. It had tons of chatter. The citadel had long grey corridors. It had a great view of fuzzy lights in the distance but not a lot of detail. The Citadel was dull and grey.

As far as shooter levels go, the prison had 3 levels just like you describe in Novaria. Horizon had a couple areas where you could run in circles and find yourself trapped in deadends as well. The thane officer tower had a couple areas where you could take a second corridor and come up beside your enemies. Have you even played the game?