102 réponses à ce sujet

[Augoeides]

godlike13 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

This isnt technically true. If you give the mage the abilities of a warrior, you give the warrior the abilities of a mage.

Like Templare for instance

And potentially; Reavers.

[Gibb_Shepard]

A Melee Mage would be my preffered class. If i can somehow spec my mage so he is good at close combat, that would be my first playthrough. Basically like Hawke in the Destiny trailer, mainly melee with occasional ranged spells. That'd be boss.

[Azjurai]

It makes sense for an apostate mage to have some melee ability, but nowhere near as effective as even the most noobish warrior on the block (lookin' at you Link).



Heck, it can even be easily enough explained with "Watched brother/wardens/guards fight, picked up the basics". Problem arrives when you want mages to fight as well in melee as warriors.



Thankfully, it doesn't look like DA2 is going to have this issue ^^

[Mercannis]

If Battlemages are to be viable and not OP they need to restrict the repotoire of spells that they can use. They very powerful spells only for Pure mages, after all mages are frail and unfit cause they spend every waking hour studying their spells..not engaging in sparring matches or body conditioning.
Restricted to medium armour ie..chainmail and not plate and should be fine

[bloodreaperfx]

The concept of book worm mages with limited melee ability is almost certianly borrowed from D&D. The ideea is that wizards need to spend time and study the arcane arts in order to improve their abilities, with little time for anything else.

However, the Sorcerer came into play. A caster who uses magic through willpower and instinct rather than understanding the arcane.  But he also payed the price with a limited selection of spells and less versatility.

Anyway, the ideea here is that auto-attack alone does not make a mage competitive in close combat when compared to rogues and warriors. Its the abilities and synergy betwen melee attacks and other companions which makes or breaks viability.

Sure you may leave your mage waving his stick in front of people, but he would be much more effective behind the lines throwing fireballs and buffing, while that 2H warrior is probably better shoving his sword up people's faces instead.

Just because a character can auto-attack at melee or range does not make him/her viable in the said role.

Modifié par bloodreaperfx, 18 février 2011 - 04:17 .

[lost lupus]

to me a melee/mage is a mage who basically fights up close and personal



the staff/sword is used manly for defence whilst the magic that is used is brutal but only effect's ONE enemy bascally like rogue but instead of back stabs etc its just flat out magic or have the magic based more around isolating a single opponent and then delivering up with killer blows and cool magic melee combos



on top of that combine a large cost in mana due to the damage a spell does and off put that by having mages wearing light armor only ensuring things like rock armor and arcane shield stay up this would force the player to choose their spell's wisely because if your go over board with spells your mana drops and so does your defences (in fact throw in a defence panelity for running out of mana)



of course if you sit around just slashing you will die as your weapon is more from a defencive stance in auto attack then offensive meaning a very awesome but mircomanged build)



the big trade off of course would be highlighted by the DA2 tree system for skills

choosing to go down this route should close off the AOE trees and ranged damage apart from simple arcane bolts this way its really a choice between how your build mages

[TCBC_Freak]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

The Hawke in the trailer is most likely an Arcane Warrior; and they have most likely made some staff-swords for the Arcane Warrior specialty to use.

Logic police in the house...

 Trailer Hawke wasn't an Arcane Warrior ... He was just a Blood Mage.. Thats it. He was fighting in melee, and getting his ass kicked to boot. He only starting winning when he was using magic. 

So yeah. The logic police are wrong. 

Number 1: I said most likely, meaning I'm already saying it could end up being wrong in the long run.

Number 2: I haven't seen anything saying the Arcane Warrior is gone; now if anyone can point to a link with a dev saying that I'll be happy to admit I was wrong, about what it was called; but until then it is still the logical assumption to say he is an Arcane Warrior with a new weapon type, over saying he is some random new class or that they remade the mage and all of its abilities (note I said all, I know they have remade some its talents and such). And many people are saying something about a Battlemage, sounds like they may have changed the name but it's still in principal the same class.

Number 3: Also what makes you think he was a Bloodmage; the only even remote evidence of that is the blood he puts on his face, but that doesn't mean anything as even the warrior and rouge have blood on their face in other videos? And in Origin an Arcane Warrior wasn't supposed to stand toe-to-toe with a full warrior in just combat, he is supposed to use magic.

Number 4: And by-the-by Logic doesn't mean its right, just that the assumption is based in fact and observed points with the give information. My conjecture that he was an Arcane Warrior is logical, even if not correct. So the logic police never left.

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 19 février 2011 - 04:19 .

[SG60]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

The Hawke in the trailer is most likely an Arcane Warrior; and they have most likely made some staff-swords for the Arcane Warrior specialty to use.

Logic police in the house...

 Trailer Hawke wasn't an Arcane Warrior ... He was just a Blood Mage.. Thats it. He was fighting in melee, and getting his ass kicked to boot. He only starting winning when he was using magic. 

So yeah. The logic police are wrong. 

Number 1: I said most likely, meaning I'm already saying it could end up being wrong in the long run.

Number 2: I haven't seen anything saying the Arcane Warrior is gone; now if anyone can point to a link with a dev saying that I'll be happy to admit I was wrong, about what it was called; but until then it is still the logical assumption to say he is an Arcane Warrior with a new weapon type, over saying he is some random new class or that they remade the mage and all of its abilities (note I said all, I know they have remade some its talents and such). And many people are saying something about a Battlemage, sounds like they may have changed the name but it's still in principal the same class.

Number 3: Also what makes you think he was a Bloodmage; the only even remote evidence of that is the blood he puts on his face, but that doesn't mean anything as even the warrior and rouge have blood on their face in other videos? And in Origin an Arcane Warrior wasn't supposed to stand toe-to-toe with a full warrior in just combat, he is supposed to use magic.

Number 4: And by-the-by Logic doesn't mean its right, just that the assumption is based in fact and observed points with the give information. My conjecture that he was an Arcane Warrior is logical, even if not correct. So the logic police never left.

Since we're numbering things.
#1: THE DEVS ALREADY CONFIRMED THE SPECIALIZATIONS.
They already stated they are Force Mage(telekinetic abilites), Spirit Healer, and Blood Mage. So no. There is no AW in DAII. The logic police need to do their homework.

[godlike13]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

The Hawke in the trailer is most likely an Arcane Warrior; and they have most likely made some staff-swords for the Arcane Warrior specialty to use.

Logic police in the house...

 Trailer Hawke wasn't an Arcane Warrior ... He was just a Blood Mage.. Thats it. He was fighting in melee, and getting his ass kicked to boot. He only starting winning when he was using magic. 

So yeah. The logic police are wrong. 

Number 1: I said most likely, meaning I'm already saying it could end up being wrong in the long run.

Number 2: I haven't seen anything saying the Arcane Warrior is gone; now if anyone can point to a link with a dev saying that I'll be happy to admit I was wrong, about what it was called; but until then it is still the logical assumption to say he is an Arcane Warrior with a new weapon type, over saying he is some random new class or that they remade the mage and all of its abilities (note I said all, I know they have remade some its talents and such). And many people are saying something about a Battlemage, sounds like they may have changed the name but it's still in principal the same class.

Number 3: Also what makes you think he was a Bloodmage; the only even remote evidence of that is the blood he puts on his face, but that doesn't mean anything as even the warrior and rouge have blood on their face in other videos? And in Origin an Arcane Warrior wasn't supposed to stand toe-to-toe with a full warrior in just combat, he is supposed to use magic.

Number 4: And by-the-by Logic doesn't mean its right, just that the assumption is based in fact and observed points with the give information. My conjecture that he was an Arcane Warrior is logical, even if not correct. So the logic police never left.

For number 3, note how he takes down the creature at the end.

Modifié par godlike13, 19 février 2011 - 04:53 .

[Eclipse_9990]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

The Hawke in the trailer is most likely an Arcane Warrior; and they have most likely made some staff-swords for the Arcane Warrior specialty to use.

Logic police in the house...

 Trailer Hawke wasn't an Arcane Warrior ... He was just a Blood Mage.. Thats it. He was fighting in melee, and getting his ass kicked to boot. He only starting winning when he was using magic. 

So yeah. The logic police are wrong. 

Number 1: I said most likely, meaning I'm already saying it could end up being wrong in the long run.

Number 2: I haven't seen anything saying the Arcane Warrior is gone; now if anyone can point to a link with a dev saying that I'll be happy to admit I was wrong, [color=rgb(255, 0, 0)">about what it was called]logical[/color] assumption to say he is an Arcane Warrior with a new weapon type, over saying he is some random new class or that they remade the mage and all of its abilities (note I said all, I know they have remade some its talents and such). And many people are saying something about a Battlemage, sounds like they may have changed the name but it's still in principal the same class.

Number 3: Also what makes you think he was a Bloodmage; the only even remote evidence of that is the blood he puts on his face, but that doesn't mean anything as even the warrior and rouge have blood on their face in other videos? And in Origin an Arcane Warrior wasn't supposed to stand toe-to-toe with a full warrior in just combat, he is supposed to use magic.

Number 4: And by-the-by Logic doesn't mean its right, just that the assumption is based in fact and observed points with the give information. My conjecture that he was an Arcane Warrior is logical, even if not correct. So the logic police never left.

The devs already confirmed the specs... Just like the devs already confirmed that trailer Hawke was a Blood Mage. 

[shumworld]

Haussier wrote...

why is the mage always stereotyped as a bookworm/smart guy? why can't we get more of a warrior scholar? I don't wan't a mage to be as effective in melee as a melee specialist like a warrior but I would still like something more than what we tend to get in fantasy games

Meh here's to hopeing.

In DA: Awakening you've got Anders and you can make him a Battlemage/Arcane Warrior if that helps.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

andar91 wrote...

The damage is the same; the animation is just different. Except you're safer from a distance (unless Archers are hanging around). Mages are still squishy.

Not if you have rock armor. 

Well, they've always been squishy in the sense that they have low hp pools, not so much in the sense of armor, which spells tend to easily make up for. The low hp pools don't mean much on a normal runthrough, but that kind of stuff starts to matter at harder difficulties.

That said, I imagine a melee mage will be a lot of fun on the easier difficulties where you don't have to worry about the negative aspects of being a mage.

[Gvaz]

You don't mage melee anything from what I saw. It's just like in DAO where you try to cast some spells even at point blank range.

Also rock armor in da:o was useless

Modifié par GvazElite, 19 février 2011 - 05:20 .

[themageguy]

i suggest ur fav elemental staff. Rock armor. Haste. Not much but should improve ur chances in melee

[Phoenixblight]

GvazElite wrote...

You don't mage melee anything from what I saw. It's just like in DAO where you try to cast some spells even at point blank range.

If you are talking about DA2 go watch some videos the mage does have melee attacks if a enemy is in melee range. If a Melee mage is possible thats entirely different but looking at the talents and abilities not really. You would be getting crushed all the time. 

[Gvaz]

I played the demo and I don't really remember much or any melee attacks because he was doing the same animation

[godlike13]

GvazElite wrote...

You don't mage melee anything from what I saw. It's just like in DAO where you try to cast some spells even at point blank range.

Also rock armor in da:o was useless

Mages melee, this is a fact, and rock armor in da:o was pretty damn useful.

[TCBC_Freak]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

The devs already confirmed the specs... Just like the devs already confirmed that trailer Hawke was a Blood Mage. 

godlike13 wrote...

For number 3, note how he takes down the creature at the end.

SG60 wrote...

Since we're numbering things.
#1: THE DEVS ALREADY CONFIRMED THE SPECIALIZATIONS.
They
already stated they are Force Mage(telekinetic abilites), Spirit
Healer, and Blood Mage. So no. There is no AW in DAII. The logic police
need to do their homework.

I see people saying the Dev's confirm, but not a link (after all I can say the dev's have confirmed that Hawke will become a undead king/queen before the games end; but if I don't provide a link I wouldn't expect you to believe it - note this is not something I have ever heard, it's just an example). But that's okay, you all seem to think you know the truth which is fine. I was not saying I was right, I was simply defending my stance on a logical stand point, so please read my whole post up there. Logical does not mean *right*, it simple means I made the best inference with the information I had at the time.

Now to take each of you in turn since for some reason speculation became against the rules in the last few days and I was a little attacked for a speculative post and then for trying to explain myself and even saying I was probably wrong.

To SG60; those maybe the only confirmed specialist classes but that does not mean they are the only ones. I remember a while back when there were no confirmed party members, did that mean there were not any?? Of course not, we now know most if not all of the party members. Now having watched many video's those are the three and there are only three special classes (which the Giantbomb's Interview on youtube confirms at about 2:49) you have proven that Arcane Warrior is gone. Kuddos. I did not know all three confirmed classes at the time I only knew Spirit Healer and Bloodmage were returning; the Force Mage was new info to me so thank you.

To Godlike13; the Arcane Warrior is gone, but they have at least one confirmed new class, so, how does an ability used in a cinamatic scene make it proof that he is a Bloodmage? I am not saying that I disagree with you that he may be or that it could be a Bloodmage power, but how are you coming to that conclusion, after all he used fire and lighting in the trailer before that power, it could just be a general mage ability.

To Eclipse_9990; I've never even seen or heard a dev even hint at the class of the trailer Hawke. If you have a link please share, I'd love to read more about DA2 as I am a fan and want to know as much as I can.

Now this will be the test if any one will read my whole post. I'm not saying I disagree with any of you. I'm simply defending my original post as logical, which it was. If you will note that there is no in video evidence that the Hawke from the trailer is a bloodmage and not something else (since ripping a person in half seems awefully like a power a Force Mage with their telekinetic abilites would have more than a Bloodmage); if you will provide at least a hint as to where you got these confirmations; and if you will admit that with the information I had on hand (which may have been limited by your standards I suppose) I came to a logical speculation that is not out of place in a thread about our speculation then you will not fire back with an attack to this post. I am not trying to disagree or start a thread fight or anything.

And as side note: I try to end all my posts with "Logic police in the house," I'd have it as my sig but there isn't room with my 2 banners there and the little police smile doesn't work with the banners for some reason, they all mess up; so I try to put it in my posts myself. It is something I say, around my friends in real life and on any forum I post in. It didn't mean I was calling anyone else illogical or something which is what I think you may have taken it as.

[godlike13]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

To Godlike13; the Arcane Warrior is gone, but they have at least one confirmed new class, so, how does an ability used in a cinamatic scene make it proof that he is a Bloodmage? I am not saying that I disagree with you that he may be or that it could be a Bloodmage power, but how are you coming to that conclusion, after all he used fire and lighting in the trailer before that power, it could just be a general mage ability.

He carves into his own arm to use the spell, "logically" that's Bloodmage M.O.

[Soul Cool]

godlike13 wrote...


Gandalf rocked a sword <_<

Multi-classing. =o

[TCBC_Freak]

godlike13 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

To Godlike13; the Arcane Warrior is gone, but they have at least one confirmed new class, so, how does an ability used in a cinematic scene make it proof that he is a Bloodmage? I am not saying that I disagree with you that he may be or that it could be a Bloodmage power, but how are you coming to that conclusion, after all he used fire and lighting in the trailer before that power, it could just be a general mage ability.

He carves into his own arm to use the spell, "logically" that's Bloodmage M.O.

You have a point about the arm carving which I will consed to about how you could logically think he's a Bloodmage; so next topic, as I pointed out later in the post how he rips the guy in half.

I never saw a power like that and that seems like something a Force Mage will be able to do and not knowing how the Force Mage works do you think their abilities could be called on in much the same way as a Bloodmage? Taking health to use? According the Dragon Age Wiki, the Force Mage will even have a power called Fist of the Maker but there is nothing give about what that power is and since giant hands come out of the vortex... but that's all pure speculation. Any thoughts?

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 19 février 2011 - 08:10 .

[SG60]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

godlike13 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

To Godlike13; the Arcane Warrior is gone, but they have at least one confirmed new class, so, how does an ability used in a cinematic scene make it proof that he is a Bloodmage? I am not saying that I disagree with you that he may be or that it could be a Bloodmage power, but how are you coming to that conclusion, after all he used fire and lighting in the trailer before that power, it could just be a general mage ability.

He carves into his own arm to use the spell, "logically" that's Bloodmage M.O.

You have a point about the arm carving which I will consed to about how you could logically think he's a Bloodmage; so next topic, as I pointed out later in the post how he rips the guy in half. I never saw a power like that and that seems like something a Force Mage will be able to do and not knowing how the Force Mage works do you think their abilities could be called on in much the same way as a Bloodmage coasting health to use? According the Dragon Age Wiki, the Force Mage will even have a power called Fist of the Maker but there is nothing give about what that power is and since giant hands come out of the vortex... but that's all pure speculation. Any thoughts?

If you watched the record of the livestream, they use Fist of the Maker. It's a AoE knockback spell. Force Mage uses telekinetic force to move enemies, from what they've mentioned so far. As for the hands, some people say it's the finisher for Crushing Prison, but I do not know if it's true.

[godlike13]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

godlike13 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

To Godlike13; the Arcane Warrior is gone, but they have at least one confirmed new class, so, how does an ability used in a cinematic scene make it proof that he is a Bloodmage? I am not saying that I disagree with you that he may be or that it could be a Bloodmage power, but how are you coming to that conclusion, after all he used fire and lighting in the trailer before that power, it could just be a general mage ability.

He carves into his own arm to use the spell, "logically" that's Bloodmage M.O.

You have a point about the arm carving which I will consed to about how you could logically think he's a Bloodmage; so next topic, as I pointed out later in the post how he rips the guy in half.

I never saw a power like that and that seems like something a Force Mage will be able to do and not knowing how the Force Mage works do you think their abilities could be called on in much the same way as a Bloodmage? Taking health to use? According the Dragon Age Wiki, the Force Mage will even have a power called Fist of the Maker but there is nothing give about what that power is and since giant hands come out of the vortex... but that's all pure speculation. Any thoughts?

Its a new game, "logically" there are going to be powers we haven't seen. Though given what we know, and that it is the Bloodmage who gains power from mutilation, one can infer that he used Bloodmagic given he used the M.O. of a Bloodmage to cast the spell. Therefor then logically conclude he was a Bloodmage, partly at least.

Modifié par godlike13, 19 février 2011 - 09:10 .

[darklordpocky-san]

I wonder when this thread became a college debate class for logic.



Either way, I prefer the Mage/Fighter build in my games. Just the pure satisfaction of being able to handle most situations on your own, or at least help the party in more ways than one, make you so much more valuable than an overspecialized spec. So yeah, I'm hoping there is a way to be a melee mage.



As for balance, well, just look at any other RPG that runs a Magic Knight class. Red Mages (Final Fantasy) are squishy and cannot master all the best magic, but are balanced in what they do know, Armamentalists (Dragon Quest) aren't gonna sweep bosses like a Warrior or a Martial Artist, but they have some great buffs and debuffs, and even strategy RPGs like Tactics Ogre manage to balance their 'Red Mage' by making them 'master of none'. In short I just think it requires a little bit of insight on how to balance out the Mage's abilites to melee combat. They should be no where near the strength of a Warrior and no where near as good at high-level magic as a pure Mage, but they should contain the best of both Warrior and Mage, as well as their faults (i.e. slow and squishy).