188 réponses à ce sujet

[Gabey5]

if so shep wouldn't be breathing

[AkiKishi]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

Perhaps I missed something in the scene, but the Illusive Man mentions that he saw the schematics of the base from EDI and realized that the radiation blast could kill all of the Collectors but leave the machinery intact. Maybe my understanding of engineering is a little off, but I don't see how having the schematics for a facility that builds chemical weapons is going to help me understand what the chemical weapons do or how they work in the sameway that I don't see how having the schematics of the base are going to help the Illusive Man figure out how Reapers function.

Of course, Reaper building machines are probably all that is on that base anyway, as you've pointed out. However, knowing how to build the Reapers allows you to figure out their construction, their capabilities, their limitations, and ultimately their weaknesses.

EDI is data mining , she's not just looking for schematics but downloading whatever passes for a hard drive in collector terms.

It's either a coincidence that he sees the data, or he knew from the start. But then he could have sent you to pulse the base and you really would have been none the wiser than blowing it up was even an option.

[DarkSeraphym]

LostScout wrote...

The collectors are flawed tools. Neither TIM or the Reapers would have any problem with letting them be destroyed if it gains them access to potentially more useful tools. Since each Reaper is an "independent" nation, then it is not impossible that agents of different reapers might be working at cross purposes. We won't know until Bioware tells us.

Of course. The Reapers and the Illusive Man would let the Collectors go if it somehow benefitted them.

However, the best argument I've heard thus far as to why the Reapers would let the Collectors be destroyed, Shepard be resurrected, and humanity to gain control of their base is because the Reapers wanted a distraction to get into galaxy. However, assuming what I know of Retribution is correct, what good is the distraction if, a year later, the Reapers still aren't there by the time the events of Retribution transpire. 

[AkiKishi]

DarkSeraphym wrote...
However, the best argument I've heard thus far as to why the Reapers would let the Collectors be destroyed, Shepard be resurrected, and humanity to gain control of their base is because the Reapers wanted a distraction to get into galaxy. However, assuming what I know of Retribution is correct, what good is the distraction if, a year later, the Reapers still aren't there by the time the events of Retribution transpire. 

I've never read the books.

I am suprised it will be at least a year between ME2 and ME3 I was expecting something more immediate.
Any chance you could do a timeline ?

[DarkSeraphym]

BobSmith101 wrote...

EDI is data mining , she's not just looking for schematics but downloading whatever passes for a hard drive in collector terms.

It's either a coincidence that he sees the data, or he knew from the start. But then he could have sent you to pulse the base and you really would have been none the wiser than blowing it up was even an option.

I never said she wasn't looking for things other schematics. I pointed out that schematics were the only thing that he mentions brought him to the conclusion that the base could be saved. Whatever EDI, up to that point onward, got out of the data from the Collectors is up for grabs till ME3. None of the data she got short of the schematics is mentioned so I don't want to dwell on that for too long.

Though, perhaps it is neither coincidence or the fact that he knew from the start. Perhaps EDI was programmed, or instructed, to inform the Illusive Man of anything she found within the Base that could be useful to warrant keeping it.

EDIT: The timeline in Retribution is rather sketchy. If I recall, at one point Leng mentions that he found Grayson and it explained that Grayson was a person who betrayed Cerberus 3 years ago. The event in question took place in Ascension, which in turn took place after Mass Effect 1. If ME2 took place 2 years after the events of ME1, then that should mean that Retribution takes at least 1 year after ME2. It's been a while since I read it, however, so do correct my if I am wrong.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 18 février 2011 - 05:39 .

[DarkSeraphym]

LostScout wrote...

Sometimes you have a plan, and it seems like a really good one, so you set it in motion. Then some idiot in N7 armor comes along and does something unexpected and ruins your plans.

The idiot in N7 armor wouldn't have even had to of gotten involved had the Collectors got control of his body.

I'll buy the argument that the Reapers are independent and could eachhave their own aims by using different agents to do things differently for their masters, however I won't buy that the Reapers have aims that different from one another (which would have to be the case if TIM was indoctrinated) unless there is also some kind of split in the Reapers like there were for the Geth. Otherwise, the only other possibility is that the Reapers all have a common goal but can't agree upon how to achieve it. If that is the case, the Reapers aren't nearly the threat we thought they were.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 18 février 2011 - 05:32 .

[Babli]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
If TIM were indoctrinated, why would he orchestrate the extinction of the Collectors, the derailing of Harbinger's plan, and the destruction of the Human Reaper?

Exactly. That would make whole story of Mass Effect 2 a joke.

[archurban]

it is something to do with first contact war. turians found prothean relic. during fighting with them, he was captured by turians, and some experiment was happened to him. that's why his eye is weird.

[nevar00]

Hm... that is very interesting, although I don't see it being true. I need to go read these comics...

I suppose they can manage to explain it away if they were very careful with it, but I dunno... I think I'd rather have TIM be a **** without the Reapers.

But he does send you into several ambushes, and as someone said, maybe you and the entire squad were supposed to die in the Suicide Mission. It would have been good for the Reapers to get all those talented individuals out of the way in one nice little battle. It could also help explain why TIM wanted the base saved so much.

Soverign had been very interested in Shepard, and I'm sure once he was killed the reapers were even more intrigued by humans. Perhaps they had meant to take Shepard alive with the Collector attack, and after his death they had TIM bring him back... as Bobsmith said, Shepard was waking up early from the Lazarus project. If I recall correctly, hadn't the Collectors contacted Wilson to bring Shepard to him?

If the Reapers were that intrigued by humanity that they would want to see how useful they could be, it would also explain what TIM did to Grayson in Retribution. Perhaps Shephard was originally meant to be in Grayson's place, but after he got away and they failed to kill him off, they just decided to go with someone else?  Also I always thought there would be some odd explanation for why TIM's eyes are so weird. 

I'm not saying I believe it or even want it to take this turn, but you've certainly made me look at everything a different way. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go run by Borders...

Modifié par nevar00, 18 février 2011 - 05:48 .

[DarkSeraphym]

nevar00 wrote...

Hm... that is very interesting, although I don't see it being true. I need to go read these comics...

I suppose they can manage to explain it away if they were very careful with it, but I dunno... I think I'd rather have TIM be a **** without the Reapers.

But he does send you into several ambushes, and as someone said, maybe you and the entire squad were supposed to die in the Suicide Mission. It would have been good for the Reapers to get all those talented individuals out of the way in one nice little battle. It could also help explain why TIM wanted the base saved so much.

Soverign had been very interested in Shepard, and I'm sure once he was killed the reapers were even more intrigued by humans. Perhaps they had meant to take Shepard alive with the Collector attack, and after his death they had TIM bring him back... as Bobsmith said, Shepard was waking up early from the Lazarus project. If I recall correctly, hadn't the Collectors contacted Wilson to bring Shepard to him?

If the Reapers were that intrigued by humanity that they would want to see how useful they could be, it would also explain what TIM did to Grayson in Retribution. Perhaps Shephard was originally meant to be in Grayson's place, but after he got away and they failed to kill him off, they just decided to go with someone else?  Also I always thought there would be some odd explanation for why TIM's eyes are so weird. 

I'm not saying I believe it or even want it to take this turn, but you've certainly made me look at everything a different way. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go run by Borders...

Seems to me like it creates more plot holes than it solves.

If the Reapers had wanted Shepard and his team to die, why would they let the Illusive Man get involved to pull Shepard's body right out from under the Collector's noses in the first place? It was already right in the hands of the Collectors, and thus the Reapers, so why let the Illusive Man get away with it? Why let him invest money into bringing this person who, for lack of a better word, has been a pain in the *** for the Reapers just so that they have to deal with him all over again? Why let the Collectors get wiped out? Why let the Human-Reaper get destroyed?

The idea that it somehow makes sense from a story-telling standpoint for the Illusive Man to be indoctrinated leaves me sitting here scratching my head. I can see conspiracy theories with 9/11 and the JFK assassination making some sense in certain ways, but this one I seem to be having a hard time coming to grips with.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 18 février 2011 - 06:05 .

[nevar00]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

Hm... that is very interesting, although I don't see it being true. I need to go read these comics...

I suppose they can manage to explain it away if they were very careful with it, but I dunno... I think I'd rather have TIM be a **** without the Reapers.

But he does send you into several ambushes, and as someone said, maybe you and the entire squad were supposed to die in the Suicide Mission. It would have been good for the Reapers to get all those talented individuals out of the way in one nice little battle. It could also help explain why TIM wanted the base saved so much.

Soverign had been very interested in Shepard, and I'm sure once he was killed the reapers were even more intrigued by humans. Perhaps they had meant to take Shepard alive with the Collector attack, and after his death they had TIM bring him back... as Bobsmith said, Shepard was waking up early from the Lazarus project. If I recall correctly, hadn't the Collectors contacted Wilson to bring Shepard to him?

If the Reapers were that intrigued by humanity that they would want to see how useful they could be, it would also explain what TIM did to Grayson in Retribution. Perhaps Shephard was originally meant to be in Grayson's place, but after he got away and they failed to kill him off, they just decided to go with someone else?  Also I always thought there would be some odd explanation for why TIM's eyes are so weird. 

I'm not saying I believe it or even want it to take this turn, but you've certainly made me look at everything a different way. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go run by Borders...

Seems to me like it creates more plot holes than it solves.

If the Reapers had wanted Shepard and his team to die, why would they let the Illusive Man get involved to pull Shepard's body right out from under the Collector's noses in the first place? It was already right in the hands of the Collectors, and thus the Reapers, so why let the Illusive Man get away with it? Why let him invest money into bringing this person who, for lack of a better word, has been a pain in the *** for the Reapers just so that they have to deal with him all over again? Why let the Collectors get wiped out? Why let the Human-Reaper get destroyed?

The idea that it somehow makes sense from a story-telling standpoint for the Illusive Man to be indoctrinated leaves me sitting here scratching my head. I can see conspiracy theories with 9/11 and the JFK assassination making some sense in certain ways, but this one I seem to be having a hard time coming to grips with.

I don't know if you read Retribution, but the whole point was to implant reaper technology in a human.  I'm sure the Reapers are already intrigued by Shepard; prehaps they meant to have him be the subject originally instead of Grayson?  When Shephard began to wake up they could have used Wilson to transfer Shephard into the hands of the Collectors and eliminate him to make sure that anyone who tried to find out what happened would hit a dead end.  And remember, Harbinger is always going on about "PRESERVE SHEPARD'S BODY IF POSSIBLE"...

Again, once they saw that Shephard had gotten away... I dunno, maybe they formed a new plan to have Shephard drop himself and an elite team (that could have proved troublesome later) right into the hands of the Reaper's servants and then take them all out at once, and once again be in control of Shephard.  It was a Suicide Mission: as someone in here suggested, perhaps they were never supposed to succeed?  

As I said I'm not convinced myself, but if anyone could make sense of this I would certainly expect Bioware capable of doing so.  And if they really wanted to pull a curve ball out of their asses, I think this could certainly be explainable... either way, I definitely want to go read those comics now.

[silent_key]

Interesting ideas OP. I think that jumping to the conclusion that TIM is working for the reapers in some way is a huge assumption. Shepard's contact with a reaper relic did not end in indoctrination, or even any subliminal influence, so how can anyone assume that TIM's case would be any different?



All of these TIM=reaper agent theorists need to consider the core principle of Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one. TIM as a triple, or quadruple agent is way too complicated. He's just a human (albeit a brilliant one) working towards his view of human sovereignty from the reapers and beyond. I personally think it would be a fantastic twist that all of his actions for the past 30 years were steps to counter the looming reaper threat.

[AkiKishi]

nevar00 wrote...
I don't know if you read Retribution, but the whole point was to implant reaper technology in a human.  I'm sure the Reapers are already intrigued by Shepard; prehaps they meant to have him be the subject originally instead of Grayson?  When Shephard began to wake up they could have used Wilson to transfer Shephard into the hands of the Collectors and eliminate him to make sure that anyone who tried to find out what happened would hit a dead end.  And remember, Harbinger is always going on about "PRESERVE SHEPARD'S BODY IF POSSIBLE"...

Never knew that, makes even more sense now.

[DarkSeraphym]

nevar00 wrote...

I don't know if you read Retribution, but the whole point was to implant reaper technology in a human.  I'm sure the Reapers are already intrigued by Shepard; prehaps they meant to have him be the subject originally instead of Grayson?  When Shephard began to wake up they could have used Wilson to transfer Shephard into the hands of the Collectors and eliminate him to make sure that anyone who tried to find out what happened would hit a dead end.  And remember, Harbinger is always going on about "PRESERVE SHEPARD'S BODY IF POSSIBLE"...

Again, once they saw that Shephard had gotten away... I dunno, maybe they formed a new plan to have Shephard drop himself and an elite team (that could have proved troublesome later) right into the hands of the Reaper's servants and then take them all out at once, and once again be in control of Shephard.  It was a Suicide Mission: as someone in here suggested, perhaps they were never supposed to succeed?  

As I said I'm not convinced myself, but if anyone could make sense of this I would certainly expect Bioware capable of doing so.  And if they really wanted to pull a curve ball out of their asses, I think this could certainly be explainable... either way, I definitely want to go read those comics now.

Yes, I have read Retribution. Only problem with it is that the Reapers had originally intended Shepard to not be alive period. That is why they had the Collectors attack Normandy SR1 and then had the Collector's arrange a deal with the Shadow Broker in the Redemption comics to find his body. Harbinger saying "preserve Shepard's body if possible" is only further evidence of this. Shepard being alive and messing up their plans was never part of their original plan. If the Reapers had it their way, Shepard would still be dead and the Collectors would have been free to do whatever they pleased with his body after they got it from the Shadow Broker. I'm not really sure what good indoctrination experiments would have done for the Reapers if Shepard were dead.

I also don't buy the idea that the Reapers would have wanted those in the dossiers dead simply because they might be a threat. You certainly didn't see Sovereign going out of its way to kill Shepard until Shepard got right in the middle of the Reapers plan and even then, Sovereign itself stated that there was nothing Shepard could do to alter the plan. It was only after Shepard proved he could destroy a Reaper that the Reapers actually thought to themselves "huh, maybe we should go after this guy" and once he was gone, they certainly didn't send off any Collectors to attack each of the people on the dossiers. No one went after Tali. No one went after Garrus. No one went after Kaidan/Ashley. No one went after Wrex. As far as the Reapers are probably concerned, the only threat was and had always been Shepard. Once he was dealt with, they likely wouldn't have thought anyone else was going to be a threat.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 18 février 2011 - 07:49 .

[Shepard needs a Vacation]

I think TIM is a sick son of a **** but he'll stop at nothing to save the human race

[JG The Gamer]

TIM indoctrinated? One CRAZY way to tell the Collectors "You're fired".

[silent_key]

LostScout wrote...

Occam's Razor works well as a scientific principle. It does not work as well when dealing with a work of fiction because the author may not want the simplest explanation to be the correct one. Authors often try to zing you with twists and turns and unexpected events in order to hold your interest. A complicated plot is not always the best explanation, but it happens often in works of fiction.

Good point.  You've reminded me of the  Darth Vader, "I am your Father!" reveal in Star Wars,  which has absolutely no build up whatsoever, but it keeps you hooked until Return fo the Jedi.

We have numerous canon references to the Illusive man's intentions, even his inner dialogue, none of which involve furthering the reapers agenda.  What many on this board are suggesting, is that TIM works for/is being controlled by the reapers. He stole Shepard from the collectors because, obviously,the reapers were trolling their own mooks.  He then brought Shepard back to life for teh LULZ, and sent him off on a galactic bus route, picking up all the awesome left in the galaxy for a reason only the mechanical cthulhu can comprehend!  In this case, we can consider Occam's razor, because this is all far too complicated, leaves way too many plotholes, and pretty much nullifies any furthered plot in the last two novels, the Redemption comic, and the entire ME2 storyline.

In my original post, I did not compare any other works of fiction or any other plot devices within ME.  In the case of TIM's loyalties, Occam's razor works perfectly.  That doesn't mean that there won't be some interesting twist with the illusive man, but it will not be to the extent that the posters on this thread are speculating, which was what i addressed in my original post.  Simplicity in fiction is a good policy to follow, but that doesn't mean that the author should take the most obvious route.  It just means that it is counterproductive to complicate a plot so much, that you can stick your head through the plot holes. 

[Brohammed]

Am I totally missing the point or was the OP trying to show that the Illusive Man was NOT working for the reapers?

[DarkSeraphym]

silent_key wrote...

We have numerous canon references to the Illusive man's intentions, even his inner dialogue, none of which involve furthering the reapers agenda.  What many on this board are suggesting, is that TIM works for/is being controlled by the reapers. He stole Shepard from the collectors because, obviously,the reapers were trolling their own mooks.  He then brought Shepard back to life for teh LULZ, and sent him off on a galactic bus route, picking up all the awesome left in the galaxy for a reason only the mechanical cthulhu can comprehend!  In this case, we can consider Occam's razor, because this is all far too complicated, leaves way too many plotholes, and pretty much nullifies any furthered plot in the last two novels, the Redemption comic, and the entire ME2 storyline.

 

Precisely. Having the Illusive Man secretly work for the Reapers isn't creative, it's just an invitation to retconning almost everything we know about the series and replacing it with a subpar plot that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 18 février 2011 - 07:53 .

[jayred vas normandy]

STG wrote...

If TIM is indoctrinated why would he assemble a team to take down Collectors? Or why would he bring Shep back?

this, if T.I.M. was a Reaper agent then y not just let the collector have Shep. and give them everything they need to get to earth undetected.

I think T.I.M. now has a connection( not enough for Reaper control ) but one that has given him an understanding that there is much more to the artifact than meets the eye. but we'll have to wait for the next issue to find out.

[DarkSeraphym]

I'm going to point out what I see as problems for some of the other theories I'm seeing outside of the distraction one:

1. The Reapers wanted Shepard to die in the Suicide Mission: This is a given, otherwise why would the Collectors have fought back at all? This isn't really a good argument for why it makes sense for the Illusive Man to be indoctrinated anyway as Shepard was dead in the beginning of ME2 to begin with. Why waste your time reviving someone just so you can kill him all over again? For the "lulz"?

2. The Reapers wanted to indoctrinate Shepard: If they wanted to indoctrinate Shepard, why would they kill him in the first place? Likewise, why send the Collectors to capture his dead body if they had indoctrinated the Illusive Man since Shepard would have to be resurrected anyways to be indoctrinated and the Illusive Man had the ability to do it? Finally if this was the goal, why did the Illusive Man not clear Miranda putting the mind control chip into his head? That certainly would have made controlling Shepard a lot easier for the Reapers.

3. The Reapers wanted Shepard alive so he could assemble a team of people they thought would be problematic later: If this was the case, why not just have the Collectors hunt each of them down individually (or even those employed by the Illusive Man) instead of getting all of these people together and greatly increasing the likelihood that they would have a harder time taking them down? Likewise, if the Reapers were so worried about these individuals, why wouldn't they have gone after Kaidan/Ashley, Garrus, Tali, Wrex , or Liara immediately? Of anyone, these 5 characters were the ones who were with Shepard when he killed Saren and helped destroy Sovereign. Of anyone, these 5 character proved their danger to the Reapers more than any of the ME2 characters.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 18 février 2011 - 08:14 .

[AkiKishi]

silent_key wrote...

Good point.  You've reminded me of the  Darth Vader, "I am your Father!" reveal in Star Wars,  which has absolutely no build up whatsoever, but it keeps you hooked until Return fo the Jedi.

We have numerous canon references to the Illusive man's intentions, even his inner dialogue, none of which involve furthering the reapers agenda.  What many on this board are suggesting, is that TIM works for/is being controlled by the reapers. He stole Shepard from the collectors because, obviously,the reapers were trolling their own mooks.  He then brought Shepard back to life for teh LULZ, and sent him off on a galactic bus route, picking up all the awesome left in the galaxy for a reason only the mechanical cthulhu can comprehend!  In this case, we can consider Occam's razor, because this is all far too complicated, leaves way too many plotholes, and pretty much nullifies any furthered plot in the last two novels, the Redemption comic, and the entire ME2 storyline.

In my original post, I did not compare any other works of fiction or any other plot devices within ME.  In the case of TIM's loyalties, Occam's razor works perfectly.  That doesn't mean that there won't be some interesting twist with the illusive man, but it will not be to the extent that the posters on this thread are speculating, which was what i addressed in my original post.  Simplicity in fiction is a good policy to follow, but that doesn't mean that the author should take the most obvious route.  It just means that it is counterproductive to complicate a plot so much, that you can stick your head through the plot holes. 

If he's anything like Saren he won't even be aware that he is doing anything beyond his own intentions. His inner thoughts would not reveal he is working for the Reapers because more than likely he does not know himself.

His goal of furthering mankind may be exactly what the Reapers want to get better smoothie ingredients.