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Evolution - Is TIM Indoctrinated?


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#101
DarkSeraphym

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

DarkSeraphym wrote...

As far as I have been able to see from the series, the Illusive Man has done anything but help the Reapers.

As much as I agree with this, I fully anticipate that BioWare is going to pull some "Human dominance benefits the Reapers" trick in the middle of ME3. At this point all alien-loving paragons will go nuts about how bad and evil TIM's turned out to be. That, of course, totally disregarding the fact that restraining the Human dominance agenda would make little difference, as the Reapers would eventually come in any case. And TIM's goal is to make the Mankind stronger than even the Reapers can handle.


Allow me to rephrase that. The Illusive Man hasn't done anything that would deliberately help the Reapers.

#102
DarkSeraphym

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Alocormin wrote...

I said it would be comparable to indoctrination if the Reaper is influencing him somehow, not that it is indoctrination.

I also said their are different levels of indoctrination. 

Time will tell if TIM is ultimately going to aid the Reapers.  I'm sure that's not his intention, whether or not the Reaper's have invaded his thoughts, however subtly.  I find it vaguely suspicious how he comments on the "perfection" of the turian husks.  I also find it a little suspicious that he came up with the idea at the last minute of saving the Collector base instead of destroying it.  Not to argue that he is trying to help the Reapers when he does that.  Also suspicious, although quite handy, is how he straddles the line between helping Shepard and helping the Collector's and the Reapers on several occasions.  

ZULU:  Certainty does not an argument make.  Proof makes an argument, and proof is usually ambiguous.



He does straddle the line between helping Shepard and the Collectors, but the Illusive Man almost always has a convincing argument as to why he needed to do it in order to make sure that he could determine the motivations of the Collectors or help move the mission along, such as getting information on the IFF and the location of the Collector Base. His actions did seem rather justified. I've never once considered the possibility that he may have been secretly helping the Reapers or the Collectors as a great way of accomplishing this would have been just letting the Collectors have Shepard and avoiding the events of ME2 altogether.

#103
TuringPoint

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Ah. Well, I didn't mean to suggest he was secretly helping the Reapers, or anything overt like that. Just that his plans tend to risk... who knows what other options he really had? Maybe he had none. Maybe the Reapers, through some means, have exerted pressure on him not to notice other alternatives.



It's just a theory.

#104
Dean_the_Young

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DTKT wrote...

I honestly fail to see how a Human dominance in the Galaxy would be a good thing.

How has the dominance of three self-interested species been a good thing for the galaxy?

#105
DarkSeraphym

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

DTKT wrote...

I honestly fail to see how a Human dominance in the Galaxy would be a good thing.

How has the dominance of three self-interested species been a good thing for the galaxy?


That is probably the view that a lot of the Citadel races other than the three Council races probably had on the matter.

#106
Zulu_DFA

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DarkSeraphym wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DTKT wrote...

I honestly fail to see how a Human dominance in the Galaxy would be a good thing.

How has the dominance of three self-interested species been a good thing for the galaxy?

That is probably the view that a lot of the Citadel races other than the three Council races probably had on the matter.

... and prefer the dominance of a single race that'll help them solve problems instead of handwaving and airquottng them.

#107
Xilizhra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

DTKT wrote...

I honestly fail to see how a Human dominance in the Galaxy would be a good thing.

How has the dominance of three self-interested species been a good thing for the galaxy?

How is human dominance such an improvement that it should be worked towards?

#108
DarkSeraphym

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Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DTKT wrote...

I honestly fail to see how a Human dominance in the Galaxy would be a good thing.

How has the dominance of three self-interested species been a good thing for the galaxy?

How is human dominance such an improvement that it should be worked towards?


Well, there are things we could list that we know from the Mass Effect universe as a whole, along with the codex, that could be improved upon if humanity took control of the Council. It certainly won't be an improvement for the Asari, Salarians, or Turians though.

The real question is should we assign a value judgment to the dilemma and assume that simply because you lack a voice in politics that the system has no benefits for you at all. This idea probably comes fromm the fact that because a lot of people that are on this forum have more than likely grown up in a Western society where you are either able to have a voice in your government or are absolutely miserable.

EDIT: By the way, this wasn't meant to be an offense to you. It was moreso a statement.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 19 février 2011 - 07:02 .


#109
Dean_the_Young

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Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DTKT wrote...

I honestly fail to see how a Human dominance in the Galaxy would be a good thing.

How has the dominance of three self-interested species been a good thing for the galaxy?

How is human dominance such an improvement that it should be worked towards?

How is it worse?

In our case, however, it doesn't need to be 'worked towards.' Human dominance results from a course of action which puts the preservation of the galaxy as superior to the preservation of the galaxy status quo.

#110
Xilizhra

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DTKT wrote...

I honestly fail to see how a Human dominance in the Galaxy would be a good thing.

How has the dominance of three self-interested species been a good thing for the galaxy?

How is human dominance such an improvement that it should be worked towards?

How is it worse?

In our case, however, it doesn't need to be 'worked towards.' Human dominance results from a course of action which puts the preservation of the galaxy as superior to the preservation of the galaxy status quo.

The population of the three (really, four) species is lower than the population of just humanity; hence, fewer people will receive the benefits of dominance.
Also, whether the preservation of the galaxy really is brought about by this remains to be seen.

#111
DTKT

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Having one race governing isntead of a council of all sounds like a disaster in the making.



I would go with a place for the humans on the Council. Throw in the Elcor and Volus too.

#112
Dean_the_Young

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Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DTKT wrote...

I honestly fail to see how a Human dominance in the Galaxy would be a good thing.

How has the dominance of three self-interested species been a good thing for the galaxy?

How is human dominance such an improvement that it should be worked towards?

How is it worse?

In our case, however, it doesn't need to be 'worked towards.' Human dominance results from a course of action which puts the preservation of the galaxy as superior to the preservation of the galaxy status quo.

The population of the three (really, four) species is lower than the population of just humanity; hence, fewer people will receive the benefits of dominance.

When dominance is, by its nature, something that can't be held by a majority, why should I either care or want other people to be dominant? Dominance isn't something that, in practice, can be shared by a majority, while the benefits of dominance do get less the more they're shared around.

If you value the benefits of dominance, spreading it isn't replicating the benifits, but diluting them.

Also, whether the preservation of the galaxy really is brought about by this remains to be seen.

At the time you're making the choice, you don't have foreknowledge that saving the Council will still beat Sovereign, and a foreknown acceptance that even so you're reducing your chances to do just that.

#113
jma2286

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The exposure to the Reaper technology has made TIM more capable, although he already seemed to be from what we've seen from him as a field agent right at the outset of colonization outside of Earth.

Again, being exposed to that tech has taken weaker minds and destroyed them, but when a capable human is exposed, they are not destroyed but enhanced. Shepard is the other example we know of.

As far as how it helps the Reapers for humanity to dominate the scene; how exactly does that help? If two guys can do that how are billions of people going to react when they're exposed to that kind of technology?

We already knew that humanity was special because that's just the way it goes but now I think it's conclusive as to why we are. Their technology, while able to subdue and destroy most sentient minds, can be resisted and learned from by us.

#114
lovgreno

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DTKT wrote...

Having one race governing isntead of a council of all sounds like a disaster in the making.

I would go with a place for the humans on the Council. Throw in the Elcor and Volus too.

Pluralism is not only usualy a efficent thing, when making big decisions that affects many different cultures it is necesary to involve as many of those cultures as possible if it's going to work in the long run. Culture X thinking that they are better at making the decisions for everyone else even if they have little knowledge about how anyone but themselves work (as they are culture X and not culture Y that is hard to know) was maybe something that worked for the Romans but in modern days such inefficent methods are terribly out of date.

#115
AkiKishi

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Biggest reason to think the Reapers have a plan.



The SR-2 gets totally suprised by the collector ship and yet they only take around a dozen people off it. Who is getting their way - Shepard, who would be basically screwed without SR-2 - Shepard.



Unless there is something else at work, it makes no sense to not just blow the thing to bits and then go after the totally harmless shuttle.




#116
didymos1120

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BobSmith101 wrote...
Unless there is something else at work, it makes no sense to not just blow the thing to bits and then go after the totally harmless shuttle.


They likely intended to get everyone, Shep included.  There also wasn't an IFF installed on the shuttle which was conveniently transmitting its location.

#117
Dean_the_Young

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There are two primary counter-arguments to that, Lovgreno.

For the first, the old Council isn't a pluralistic system. It's an influence exclusion racket which has canonically worked to maintain and enforce its dominance over hundreds, if not thousands, of other species, and in those species, and even in the Council races, exist a variety of cultures. The Council is a pluralistic system in the same sense that China is a democracy because the highest ruling council demands a consensus between the majority of its body.

The other is that the Council that has to be more responsive to the needs of others is the one who can't simply ignore them. The Human grip of galactic governance is too weak to ignore the other races: it maintains its hold on the Citadel because none of the Council races want to pay the cost of kicking it out, and the other Citadel species more or less tolerate it to their own advantage. Unlike the other Council, which was so powerful and balanced between the three species that it never needed to accept any species' demands or concerns until Humanity arrived, the Human council doesn't have that overwhelming strength. And that means it's had to deal with others to get what it wants: an Alliance-owned world to the Volus for decisive support, for example.

The Volus! When was the last time the Volus political support was decisive?

There is an advantage in relative weakness in addressing the concerns of others. The old Council was strong enough amongst itself that it never needed to, and often didn't: whether ignoring millenia of good service and contribution, waching an associate of long standing was being genocided in trying to uphold Council laws, standing by while another associate is driven out of their settlements and colonization areas by an upstart race, or not even mobilizing when a genocidal synthetic invasion starts, it never mattered. The Council was so stable it never needed to react to the concerns of its associates.

The Human Council can't afford to be that negligent and unresponsive to other species concerns. While there might be no fundamental charity or generosity, and only the same self-interest 'do however little it takes to maintain the stability to maintain hold on power,' that bare minimum is much higher than the old Council.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 février 2011 - 01:15 .


#118
AkiKishi

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didymos1120 wrote...

They likely intended to get everyone, Shep included.  There also wasn't an IFF installed on the shuttle which was conveniently transmitting its location.


That may be the case, but that also means they have a plan for Shepard that does not just involve him being dead.

Even if you don't actually kill him at that point. You do remove any chance of him getting through the Omega by destroying SR-2. Which only leaves the conclusion that they want him to follow that path for some reason.

#119
Elite Midget

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Yeah...

TIM is so indoctrinated that he brought back the guy/gal who killed a Reaper, spoiled the SBs plans to give the Reapers the Body of Shepard, and destroying the Collector Slaves and preparing to repel their invasion.

TIMs a jerk but that doesn't mean he has an agenda other than Human Dominance. He's been nothing but honest about his desires and never lied about it.Image IPB

#120
lovgreno

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That is a very good argument Dean, though I think the same results would be easier to create by setting a more pluraslistic standard with a multi cultural Council including humans and the old powers that be (humanity would have generations of hammering against stubborn old structures to look forward to though).

There is however still the very big flaw with it: Human dominance means humans in most positions of power. This will exclude the expertise other cultures have about their own races and interests. The humans in power have no reason to listen to advice from other races as they will still be safe in their comfortable place of power. The new political standard of excluding other cultures from having a say makes it less politicaly possible to favour pluralism. The other races has effectively been labeled as unfit to rule themselves as the new people in power thinks they can do it better. The Council has also made itself a lot more dumber by excluding all points of wievs except that of one race.

Now this isn't necesarily a bad thing for the galaxy in the longer run. Such a weak ruler can not hold power for long in the extreme competition that is galactic politics and economy. One culture against everyone else simply doesn't work in the long run. When the humans leave office the old powers that be will probalby be back, but this time it won't be as easy as before to keep power. They have lost their power before and therefore the people of the galaxy no longer see them as the only real choice. The human Council has done things differently, probably different in a weak and inefficent way, but still. The people of the galaxy now knows that there are alternatives to the old ways. So the new old powers that be knows that they must make reforms in all kinds of ways, more pluralism for example, to stay in power this time.

However, there is a big loser in this scenario: Humanity. A scapegoat is needed and the obvious choice would be the race that thought they could rule the galaxy alone (not in real politics probably but this is still the face of humanity the galaxy has been shown). At best humanity can be reduced to a weakened race in every way but still able to slowly work their way back up and gaining the trust of galactic average Joe, though a place in the Council would be generations away this time. At worst humanity could get isolated pariahs like the batarians and quarians. This scenario should be avoided if necesary by the leaders of the Alliance, if only to save their own political and economical behinds.

Modifié par lovgreno, 20 février 2011 - 01:58 .


#121
Dean_the_Young

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lovgreno wrote...

That is a very good argument Dean, though I think the same results would be easier to create by setting a more pluraslistic standard with a multi cultural Council including humans and the old powers that be (humanity would have generations of hammering against stubborn old structures to look forward to though).

And how will you do that?

If we could set a pluralistic standard, the Council as we know it wouldn't exist.




There is however still the very big flaw with it: Human dominance means humans in most positions of power. This will exclude the expertise other cultures have about their own races and interests. The humans in power have no reason to listen to advice from other races as they will still be safe in their comfortable place of power. The new political standard of excluding other cultures from having a say makes it less politicaly possible to favour pluralism. The other races has effectively been labeled as unfit to rule themselves as the new people in power thinks they can do it better. The Council has also made itself a lot more dumber by excluding all points of wievs except that of one race.


That's... not inherent at all, and goes directly against the human history of most forms of imposing dominance over others. Plus, the Human Council doesn't rule other species outright: governments have always held a nebulous claim to self-governance before, and in the post-Human setup those xeno-national sovereignities are more intact than before. The Council has less intrusion, not more, into the rights of the species governments as they increasingly reassert their right to such policies as defense. Pluralism was never in the cards before. But more importantly than that, your assertion that the Humans will actively exclude the views of other races is dependant on them being idiots to history and politics.

Only the ignorant (or those who intend to be genocidal, and see no point) occupiers exclude the local expertise and opinions and concerns. This has been known counter-insurgency for decades, and every time it lapses it's quickly remembered: the largest part of, say, American involvement in Iraq isn't combat operations, but in trying to work with and address the needs of local groups. When those local groups have a position, we listen: we may not always oblige, but one of the historically most effective and successful means of enforcing a dominance is to not only accept but go out of your way to gather knowlege on the local concerns, and then deal with them in the scope that you can.


And that's in the context of direct occupation with a clearly overwhelming dominant power: in civil governance, you're even further from active practice. The need and desire for specialist knowledge is at the heart of the lobbying system itself: legislators frequently vote and decide on areas outside their area of expertise. No leader is a subject matter expert on everything, and so the frequently and freely seek out the knowledge of others, whose jobs it is to make their case as best as possible.

Inside a government itself, this means that, say, Councilor Anderson might be a nominal expert on things military, but he's going to be listening to advisors and direct lobbyists from, say, Exo-Geni who try and shape his opinions while informing him about matters of particular importance. From government to government, this means ambassadors and lobbying groups, and any number of other sorts of ties which build relations and understandings: the Israel Lobby might be replaced by the Volus Lobby, or similar. Governments spend great gobs of cash to both get their voice out, and to hear the voices of other groups.






Now this isn't necesarily a bad thing for the galaxy in the longer run. Such a weak ruler can not hold power for long in the extreme competition that is galactic politics and economy. One culture against everyone else simply doesn't work in the long run. When the humans leave office the old powers that be will probalby be back, but this time it won't be as easy as before to keep power. They have lost their power before and therefore the people of the galaxy no longer see them as the only real choice. The human Council has done things differently, probably different in a weak and inefficent way, but still. The people of the galaxy now knows that there are alternatives to the old ways. So the new old powers that be knows that they must make reforms in all kinds of ways, more pluralism for example, to stay in power this time.

I actually agree with this as a long-term boon...

However, there is a big loser in this scenario: Humanity. A scapegoat is needed and the obvious choice would be the race that thought they could rule the galaxy alone (not in real politics probably but this is still the face of humanity the galaxy has been shown). At best humanity can be reduced to a weakened race in every way but still able to slowly work their way back up and gaining the trust of galactic average Joe, though a place in the Council would be generations away this time. At worst humanity could get isolated pariahs like the batarians and quarians. This scenario should be avoided if necesary by the leaders of the Alliance, if only to save their own political and economical behinds.

...but do not agree with this. Humanity isn't an inherent scape goat, or an inevitable one. You can just as easily claim a scenario in which it's the old Council that are scape-goated for it's long-term exclusion of other races, while the way the Alliance handles it's own relative decline can well make it remembered as the forciful reformer who, after the period of revolution, expanded true plurality in a system of it's own creation.

Even if the Alliance is declining, after all, it can still dictate the terms of its own decline. Re-establishing a true multi-racial Council in a set up that doesn't favor the Old Three is not only a concession to the old Council (who regain some more influence), but a great boon to the many other species of the galaxy who stand to gain.

The Alliance can define the next Council as one that will be too weak to dominate: a Council of far more species, a Council with far fewer rights and powers over the governments involved. A Council in which most of the sitting members not only can't take action against the Alliance (because the Council is set up in such a way), but also don't want to: this Council is the first and only Council seat they've ever gotten, and protects them as much as it does others.


The 'average joe' isn't the Average Turian.

#122
Wulfram

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Human dominance is always going to be chimerical unless they destroy the Turians, Asari and Salarians with the brief technological advantage they might get from reaper tech.

#123
AkiKishi

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Wulfram wrote...

Human dominance is always going to be chimerical unless they destroy the Turians, Asari and Salarians with the brief technological advantage they might get from reaper tech.


Going by the teaser trailer humanity is not going to be dominating much of anything. If that situation is also happening on the other races homeworlds then baring a major Deus Ex Machina everyone is boned.

My feeling is they are starting with Earth and it's tying up all of them.

Of course the other lesson that ME history teaches is "Push the council and they push back. HARD".

#124
didymos1120

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BobSmith101 wrote...

That may be the case, but that also means they have a plan for Shepard that does not just involve him being dead.


It doesn't seem unreasonable that Harby might have had the notion to make Shep an avatar like Saren in ME1, or Grayson in Retribution, but that's just a guess.  In any case, there's no question about them wanting to acquire Shep intact if possible.  Harbinger's battle taunts about taking Shep alive, or at least preserving the body, make that clear; and in Lair, if you do it before the Omega-4 relay, the Broker will mention the Collectors' offer for Shep was still on the table.  Dead was definitely acceptable, but not the preferred outcome.

Even if you don't actually kill him at that point. You do remove any chance of him getting through the Omega by destroying SR-2. Which only leaves the conclusion that they want him to follow that path for some reason.


Well, we have no clue what they'd have done because EDI got them out of there mere moments after the rest of the crew had been collected.  Going by the dialogue, and the fact that you see some outside of engineering, some of the Collectors were still on board right before Joker brought the drive core back online.  I tend to think the Normandy would have been left there, empty, for Shep to find  in hopes that s/he'd follow after the crew, but maybe Harbinger would have just said "Ah, screw it.  Once you drones are finished crating those humans, blow the thing up.  I'll just have to deal with Shepard another day." 

#125
AkiKishi

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didymos1120 wrote...

It doesn't seem unreasonable that Harby might have had the notion to make Shep an avatar like Saren in ME1, or Grayson in Retribution, but that's just a guess.  In any case, there's no question about them wanting to acquire Shep intact if possible.  Harbinger's battle taunts about taking Shep alive, or at least preserving the body, make that clear; and in Lair, if you do it before the Omega-4 relay, the Broker will mention the Collectors' offer for Shep was still on the table.  Dead was definitely acceptable, but not the preferred outcome.


Well, we have no clue what they'd have done because EDI got them out of there mere moments after the rest of the crew had been collected.  Going by the dialogue, and the fact that you see some outside of engineering, some of the Collectors were still on board right before Joker brought the drive core back online.  I tend to think the Normandy would have been left there, empty, for Shep to find  in hopes that s/he'd follow after the crew, but maybe Harbinger would have just said "Ah, screw it.  Once you drones are finished crating those humans, blow the thing up.  I'll just have to deal with Shepard another day." 


That could be what project lazarus was except Shepard woke up before it was complete. Miranda never invented the technology as far as I know. She may have been in the dark about its origin.

But you don't gain a lot from collecting the crew. Unless there is an ulterior motive that requires Shepard to be distracted with the O4 relay, you gain a lot more just blowing the SR-2 up.