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[AudioEpics]

What a great thread! It's so rare to find such a civil, even-handed discussion on religion or politics on the internet. I just wanted to say I've really enjoyed reading this. Personally, I have to say I think Bioware have handled the religious themes in Dragon Age very maturely, never giving me the impression that they are trying to convince anyone of anything, while still being thought-provoking. Perhaps the Chantry does mirror the medieval Church a bit too closely at times, but indeed, the differences are key as well: Andraste may have superficial similarities to Jesus, but she's really more of a Joan of Arc figure and the Maker is a very different god than the Christian God.

[Berkilak]

Also, two certain dipolomats refused to remove their hats upon entry due to it not being their custom. Vlad aided them in their native way by nailing said hats to their skulls.

[The Big Nothing]

Berkilak wrote...

Also, two certain dipolomats refused to remove their hats upon entry due to it not being their custom. Vlad aided them in their native way by nailing said hats to their skulls.

That settles it: we need a "Vlad" character in Dragon Age--maybe Antiva. 

[Berkilak]

I plan to play my Hawke in such a way. My Warden was a well-intentioned, if not entitled, pragmatic and, frankly, desparate man. He made a few calls he wasn't proud of because of the immediacy of his situation. Given that Hawke has ten years to play with and starts low, I think I can turn him into a bit more of a tyrant that I was ever comfortable doing with any warden.

[GodWood]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Do fans project their dislike of Christianity (not just Catholicism) onto the Chantry? Oh yes.

It's a fairly narrow-minded and bigoted viewpoint, and I'm sure that's not what the developers intended. The actual portrayal of the Chantry by BioWare is more positive and nuanced than people acknowledge.

Indeed

[MrStorm2K]

As a Protestant who sympathizes with Catholics, I understand and recognize your concerns. However, I would note that the Chantry's religion is, as others have said, a combination of monotheistic beliefs. In addition, one could argue the way the Chantry is depicted is a reaction against certain religious attitudes and beliefs rather than a single organization. I actually enjoy the religious depictions and critiques in the Bioware games as a Religious Studies student. They add a maturity and intellectual depth to the game(s) for me.



Still, I don't think there's any doubt that the Chantry is heavily inspired by the Roman Catholic Church. Bioware should definitely handle the depiction of the Chantry with care if they don't want a backlash, or attempt to further separate the Chantry from the Catholics.

[Berkilak]

Quite frankly, I associate the Chantry more closely with Islam. The life of Andraste, apart from being female, very closely parallels the life of Mohammad. It has very few parallels with Jesus, bar her death. If anything, I would worry about Islam coming to view her as a depiction of Mohammad.

[MrStorm2K]

Berkilak wrote...

Quite frankly, I associate the Chantry more closely with Islam. The life of Andraste, apart from being female, very closely parallels the life of Mohammad. It has very few parallels with Jesus, bar her death. If anything, I would worry about Islam coming to view her as a depiction of Mohammad.

While one could argue that Andraste is inspired by Mohammed, the Chantry, quite clearly, is not.

[Berkilak]

Monotheistic, scheduled times for daily chants... there isn't much difference between a mosque and a church, but most of the differences I've noted err on the side of the mosque. I'd dare say you've not been around Islamic practice much, but I hate to be presumptuous.

[moilami]

Berkilak wrote...

I plan to play my Hawke in such a way. My Warden was a well-intentioned, if not entitled, pragmatic and, frankly, desparate man. He made a few calls he wasn't proud of because of the immediacy of his situation. Given that Hawke has ten years to play with and starts low, I think I can turn him into a bit more of a tyrant that I was ever comfortable doing with any warden.

My Hawke will probably seek refuge from Chantry. He has been threatened to be killed by certain people because he does not enjoy certain types of sex.

If chantry offers a safe refuge of htose lunatics, my Hawke have maybe no choise than to turn very Pro Chantry. Lesser evil and so on.

[MrStorm2K]

@ Berkilak

Chants are hardly unique to Islam and can be heard in virtually every religion. And I think it would be a tragic error to simplify both Christianity and Islam down to a church and a mosque.

And while you would be wise to assume that in a Western culture, that's not the case with me. If you look at the history of the Islamic religion, the way it developed and was... controlled, for a lack of a better word, does not seem to fit the development and form of the Chantry. The Christian (Catholic) Church fits far better. I don't want to get in to specifics, as I could quite literally write thousands of words on the issue. But I think it's pretty clear what the inspiration for the Chantry was.

But I would agree with you that Andraste is more based on Mohammed than any other religious figure. And I'd say the few theological beliefs revealed about the Maker seem to be Deistic, maybe even some Jewish beliefs as well. So, on the whole, it's clearly a combination of multiple monotheistic beliefs.

Modifié par MrStorm2K, 18 février 2011 - 08:25 .

[Madmoe77]

I have read through this post; as it caught my eye in the sidebar, and I am torn between what I would like to say and what anyone of us can clearly label as nothing more than an opinion. Dragon Age has done a very good job of taking the idea of amalgamation of literary works, history, religious/mythical/spiritual thought and creating a mood for the player to attach themselves to on many levels.



Maybe I have a mature perspective because I am in my mid-thirties but such thick lore can't help but draw on a reality we might recognize. I say mature because suggesting a game 'conditions' someone to ignore their religion or others to have an opinion against a religion would be an oversight of religion requiring 'conditioning' to become faith. Have you the faith-not much contends with that belief. Aside from the tone of the era in which we happen upon Dragon Age; nothing beyond cultural difference in-game creates any disdain for the Chantry other than idividuals exploiting the Chantry.



If one is concerned that the events and actions of the game are drawn to closely to flaws existing in the history, literature or established faiths/philosophies/religions in the world in which we live-it takes not a game to do this but an acknowlegment that they do exist.

[Berkilak]

Don't get me wrong, I was using the church and the mosque to allegorically allude to the religions... a habit that I suppose shouldn't be carried over to non-academic life. Since I'm headed to bed, I agree that the Chantry is more of a monotheistic amalgamation than anything, but I'll agree to disagree on where the most inspiration comes from. Like you, I could write voluminously on the topic. Religious studies (read; not theology) was one of my minors. I'll agree that organization parallels Christianity more closely (note, not just Catholicism), but the practice itself seems much more Islamic. The whole concept of submission...

Anyway I can see a rant forming, so good night, and good debate.

Modifié par Berkilak, 18 février 2011 - 08:37 .

[Nonoru]

Some people who hates/dislikes/can't stand religions will hate the chantry only because that's a religion.There is no point in trying to convince these that it's wrong.Same goes for the opposite.



Either you believe in God or do not shouldn't be taken in account when you play a fiction, in my opinion,but not everyone is able to pass over their beliefs.

[MrStorm2K]

@ Berkliak



Sweet, I'm currently a student in that area as well. I'm actually more interested on your position now since you're so insistent. Maybe I'm lacking in knowledge of Chantry history/beliefs...? Because I really don't see where you could be drawing from besides rather wide principles.



Regardless, nice discussion.

[LioPunk]

I always thought that the Chantry was a fairly accurate depiction of structured medieval religions. And if anything is too nice. It may help to consider that the comparison between the Chantry and the Catholic Chuch should be made to how the chuch was in the appropriate time period, (if at all). How the Church may or may not be today is irrelevant.

On a random note: What other religions are mirrored in the Chantry? I only spot Islam and Catholicism. I'm curious.

Modifié par LioPunk, 18 février 2011 - 10:47 .

[Ms .45]

Encarmine wrote...

All I know is, I was raised a diet Catholic, im a non practising Catholic, but if they ever discovered a tomb protected by

actual talking spirits
high dragon
immortal guardian

Which then led to, an urn said to contain the ashes of Jesus Christ

I would be in church the next day, singing seriously loud

I was raised and remain an atheist, and I'd be right next to you. 

Also, a game about the life of Muhammad would be @#$% awesome. So much swordplay and scary women with daggers... 

[Ms .45]

 Also, one of the things I liked about DA:O was that you could take a (for want of better terms) liberal or conservative view of events. You could side with the chantry or the mages. You could free blood mages or kill abominations wherever you saw them. You could play a bisexual, promiscuous douchebag (or, as I often did, a bisexual promiscuous nice guy) or a devout Andrastean pure in thought and deed. The only thing that would have made it more perfect would have been the ability to play as Loghain's ally, trying to curb the influence of the cultish and frankly superstitious Grey Wardens. 
My point to the OP being that if you are a Catholic, then proudly play as a Catholic  
(I realise the above is more politics than religion as such, but there's such heavy crossover, my fellow WASPs.)

[Kidd]

If you think the Chantry is a real life religion in the game, you're missing the point. Not to mention you're missing the point if you believe they're all bad. Sometimes they make mistakes, cause they're human, but ultimately the Chantry truly wants to help people. They're good people at heart. Hence why they're written so interestingly. Sometimes I feel like stabbing every templar I see after witnessing some injustice, but then I realise they most probably do more good than bad in the greater whole.

At least that's how I feel about the Chantry. It's difficult to look at Wynne or the Revered Mothers and say "you're bad". It really, really is.

The only people who would draw bad parallels to real life religion and focus only on the negative sides of the Chantry are those who have very deep seated opinions already I think. And it's not like they will get any worse, they're already set in their opinions as is. I'm no believer myself but it's not like I feel anything bad against RL believers of any kind when I save Anders from templars, for instance.

AustinKain wrote...

All i have to say is Passion of the Christ

I don't "get" that film. I thought I'd get to see Jesus doing great things, teaching people about the love of his god and then utterly fall to the cruelty of man. But man, it's just a full film of Jesus being whipped and beaten with barely any dialogue =/ Perhaps I'm just dumb but I don't see what one was supposed to "get" from watching it. The story of Jesus has the potential to be a really good film; strong, emotional, inspiring and with a tragic ending. Instead it was just... dark and didn't really progress much. The prince of Egypt was a good film, for instance.
I hope that didn't offend =S I'm curious, really. Cause the film was a huge mystery to me.

[DalishRanger]

Being a real life apostate (as far as the Church is concerned, anyway) who doesn't particularly loathe the Catholic Church but simply has differing beliefs... My real life views have no impact on the view of the Chantry, or vice-versa. Can I see connections? Yes, but more from a historical and cultural perspective. I take it for the influence to aid in world building that it is. Being a fantasy world-builder myself, I understand it's a common practice and not always used as a form of commentary, but finding something familiar in the real world to help shape new ideas for a fictional world.

[AlexXIV]

People dislike the catholic church because of the catholic church, not because of the Chantry. If anything, they dislike the Chantry because of the catholic church and not the other way round. They have enough skeletons in their cellars and all they have to blame are they themselves. You know, humanity is growing up. I don't have a problem with some anachronic faith that can't help the majority of people anymore and refuses to change. Because it will just go the way of all earthly things. You know, from dust to dust, ashes to ashes etc.

Anyway, I wouldn't know why it is not legitimate to take such a religion or faith as an inspiration for a a fantasy world religion. That is if you realize that this fantasy religion will automatically be connected with it's real life example for that very reason.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 février 2011 - 11:42 .

[ReallyRue]

I don't think Bioware created the Chantry with the idea of undermining Christianity, or Catholics in general. And no sane person is going to like the two any further than just recognising that both are organised religions that have had a major impact on their worlds (which sums up many organised religions in general).

The people who do hate the Catholic church because of the Chantry or vice versa are clearly one lightbulb short of a lamp and will use any excuse to hate. Unfortunately, there will always be determined bigots, and they will use anything to back up their arguments.

[Taleroth]

GodWood wrote...

She's more like a Jesus/Joan of Ark hybrid.

Indeed.  I don't remember Indiana Jones going through a bunch of traps just to get to the healing powers of an artifact of Muhammad.

Modifié par Taleroth, 18 février 2011 - 04:42 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

AustinKain wrote...

Umm no offense and i mean no offense when i say this as i have nothing against you, but you may need to go talk to your priest.

While the chantry resembles some of the Catholic churches past, anyone who connects the 2 and looks negatively at a church based on a video game needs more help than a forum can provide.

I dont agree with the Catholic church, but i also believe that a given religious affliation wont keep you out of heaven. There were 12 tribes and whos to say that they didnt all change names to fit in to where they went in the world.

Anyway before they lock this man, i would go have a serious talk with your priest about you fears over a video game, afterall a video game is a alternate universe that is not real.

You've offended him by implying that he gets all his knowledge from priests which I doubt. No one gets their knowledge from priests anymore. Catholics only go to priests to confess. 

Only fools look at the Chantry as evil anyway. They claim that the imprisonment of mages is bad but it's not bad when just ONE mage (in two intances in DA:O) killed tons of people when they fled (Connor was not with the circle) from the clutches of the Chantry. For that reason, imprisoning all mages in a rather nice tower where these mages can do what they want and freely roam around is actually the best option since just ONE mage who turns into an abomination can destroy entire towns.

When we forget the mages, we see the Chantry puts up jobs on boards and such jobs include helping other people, killing bandits and collecting healing potions for the injured. They even pay the people who perform these jobs. That's good not bad. Mages that are free from the circle eventually become power-hungry, just look at Anders who killed several Grey Wardens because he accepted a spirit into his body.

@OP

Not everyone thinks The Chantry is bad, the majority who hate The Chantry are those who hate the church in real life so obviously they are going to hate The Chantry along with all other organized religion and their places of worship.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 18 février 2011 - 04:50 .