135 réponses à ce sujet

[hamlin69]

Religion is just made up man, get over it.

[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Do fans project their dislike of Christianity (not just Catholicism) onto the Chantry? Oh yes.

It's a fairly narrow-minded and bigoted viewpoint, and I'm sure that's not what the developers intended. The actual portrayal of the Chantry by BioWare is more positive and nuanced than people acknowledge.

I think there's a difference between the people who have asserted what they find to be flaws with the Chantry and addressed them, and the people who have mistakenly conflated the Chantry with modern day Christianity.

[Erani]

Well, it'd be really hard for BioWare to create a totally new religious lore, bearing no resemblance to any real life religion. Because they chose to go in the Supreme-Maker direction, yeah it makes sense that one would find similarities with the monotheistic traditions. The resemblance however, is not specific to Cristianity or even the Catholic tradition but general to all the religions who believe in one deity only.



I believe BioWare has portrayed in-game religion in a very ethical manner. Yes, it is thought-provoking...People's struggle to understand how many religions have a message of love and compassion while at the same time being intolerant and/or cruel to those who don't accept their views, is very real. Perhaps the devs wanted to deal with this topic and let players reach their own conclusions.

[HopHazzard]

Of all the life experiences I've had that shaped my view of the Roman Catholic church, playing a video game has never been one of them. I think the OP is overreacting.

[stujlaird]

OP, I think I can see your concerns... at least as well as I'm capable of understanding your point of view, anyway, not being notably religious myself.

I think the problem is that pretty much any big, world-striding religion in fiction will have similarities to the Catholic Church; kind of inevitable, since the Catholic organisational structure is the most well known. As fictional churches go, I'd say that the Chantry isn't one I'd be ashamed to have my beliefs compared to; sure, they're harsh, but harsh on a group of people with the potential to cause mass destruction with a flick of a finger. Sure, some of the Templars are somewhat... disagreable... but they're warriors charged with guarding what they perceive as a great physical and spiritual danger, and mostly, they seem to be doing their best to be fair. In the Tower quests, Gregoir gave you the chance to save the mages; the Templar arguing for killing them all was one who'd been tortured by the demons - that would make most people a little untrusting.

From what I could see, most of the Chantry-associated characters in DA:O seemed to be pretty decent people, trying to help the people around them within the service of their faith. The nearest I can think of to a discreditable example was in The Stolen Throne, where there was a high ranking Reverend Mother who seemed more of a politician than a priest... which is sad, but one of those things that happens, even in the best faiths, sadly.

As for what we've seen of DA2, we have Cassandra grabbing Varric and demanding answers... harsh, but we don't know how serious a crisis they're suffering. As for Varric saying the Chantry brought the world to the brink of war... that could be prejudice talking; the dwarfs aren't followers of the Chantry, after all. In the gameplay, we have Wesley reacting poorly to the presence of an apostate, true... but given that he's a Templar, the threat a mage represents, and the fact that, to my ear at least, he sounded... less than fully rational at that point, as if coming down with shock, I don't think it says anything bad about the Chantry.

But, as I said, that's just my point of view. Nice to see a civilised discussion on a topic like this.
Edit: Darn. Looks like I spoke too soon. Seriously; "religion is just made up". Calling the OP a narcissist? Show some respect for other people's views, people.

Modifié par stujlaird, 18 février 2011 - 04:58 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

hamlin69 wrote...

Religion is just made up man, get over it.

Religion is a system of beliefs and how one lives their life. Google it and cry. Everyone follows one religion or the other.

[stujlaird]

Elton John is dead wrote...
Everyone follows one religion or the other.

Not true. I follow no religion, only my own conscience, as informed by all I've learned, from religious or non-religious sources. This doesn't mean I necessarily have a problem with anyone who follows a religion; whatever works for them, so long as they don't insult me for my view of the world, I won't insult them for theirs. I only have a problem when people try to use their religion to justify doing things that, to my view of the world, seem immoral.

[Eveangaline]

Lets say hypothetically it is a commentary on the church.



So what? People are allowed to say bad things about the church, and if that makes you uncomfortable, don't play it.

[LobselVith8]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Only fools look at the Chantry as evil anyway. They claim that the imprisonment of mages is bad but it's not bad when just ONE mage (in two intances in DA:O) killed tons of people when they fled (Connor was not with the circle) from the clutches of the Chantry.

Why does this thread need to turn into another mages vs. Chantry debate?


Your "analysis" of the debate ignored the entire basis for the argument people have made against what the Chantry does (and this thread does not need to be turned into another debate about this when we have several threads currently covering this issue), and people who disagree with the Chantry do not consider it evil but wrong. The people on the pro-mage debate aren't trying to say that the Chantry or the templars are evil but wrong in what they're doing. The entire debate is that people consider what the Chantry and its templars do to mages is morally wrong and essentially ineffective. Also, Connor wasn't with the Circle because his very religious mother didn't want him to be a mage.

Elton John is dead wrote...

For that reason, imprisoning all mages in a rather nice tower where these mages can do what they want and freely roam around is actually the best option since just ONE mage who turns into an abomination can destroy entire towns.

Nice tower? This entire sentence is completely erroneous. People don't start revolutions because they're living in a "nice tower."

Elton John is dead wrote...

When we forget the mages, we see the Chantry puts up jobs on boards and such jobs include helping other people, killing bandits and collecting healing potions for the injured. They even pay the people who perform these jobs. That's good not bad. Mages that are free from the circle eventually become power-hungry, just look at Anders who killed several Grey Wardens because he accepted a spirit into his body.

I didn't realize Aneirin the Healer was power hungry. I didn't realize Jowan becoming Master Levyn and protecting the innocent was being power hungry. Any more inaccurate examples to provide us?

Elton John is dead wrote...

@OP

Not everyone thinks The Chantry is bad, the majority who hate The Chantry are those who hate the church in real life so obviously they are going to hate The Chantry along with all other organized religion and their places of worship.

Just because people find the Chantry to be wrong doesn't mean they think they're evil.

[Eternal Phoenix]

stujlaird wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Everyone follows one religion or the other.

Not true. I follow no religion, only my own conscience, as informed by all I've learned, from religious or non-religious sources. This doesn't mean I necessarily have a problem with anyone who follows a religion; whatever works for them, so long as they don't insult me for my view of the world, I won't insult them for theirs. I only have a problem when people try to use their religion to justify doing things that, to my view of the world, seem immoral.

Then you follow a religion. You have your own code you live by and your own beliefs. That what's religion is. Once you study religion more, you will realize this.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why does this thread need to turn into another mages vs. Chantry debate? 

Because the OP thought everyone thought that The Chantry was evil.

LobselVith8 wrote...



Your "analysis" of the debate ignored the entire basis for the argument people have made against what the Chantry does (and this thread does not need to be turned into another debate about this when we have several threads currently covering this issue), and people who disagree with the Chantry do not consider it evil but wrong. The people on the pro-mage debate aren't trying to say that the Chantry or the templars are evil but wrong in what they're doing. The entire debate is that people consider what the Chantry and its templars do to mages is morally wrong and essentially ineffective. Also, Connor wasn't with the Circle because his very religious mother didn't want him to be a mage.

Not all consider it wrong. Many consider it evil. You also forget that Connor's father didn't want him to be in the Circle either.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nice tower? This entire sentence is completely erroneous. People don't start revolutions because they're living in a "nice tower."

That sentance is erroneous in itself. It connects to the other sentance, without that, it makes no sense. The fact is - just one mage who becomes an abomination can destroy entire towns.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I didn't realize Aneirin the Healer was power hungry. I didn't realize Jowan becoming Master Levyn and protecting the innocent was being power hungry. Any more inaccurate examples to provide us?

Anders wasn't power hungry either but he became it and who is to say that Jowan won't become the same? It's their anger that will corrupt the spirits they accept into their bodies. Regardless of their motives, look at what happened to Anders. Mages have done the most damage to the world of Thedas but they have also performed great deeds which is why they always need to be watched over.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 18 février 2011 - 05:22 .

[Eveangaline]

Elton John is dead wrote...
Everyone follows one religion or the other.

Uh...no? Athiests don't.

[otherarrow]

Well, to my knowledge the church doesn't like magic any more than the chantry does. Didn't they use to burn witches on a bonfire? Guess the chantry is nice enough to just lock them in a tower.

But honestly, whatever bias people have with the church it's not going to get strengthed or weakened by the chantry.
People seem to think that videogames have more influence than they really have.

[Taleroth]

Eveangaline wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Everyone follows one religion or the other.

Uh...no? Athiests don't.

Atheists do not believe in gods.  There is a distinction.  Buddhism is an atheistic religion.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Eveangaline wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Everyone follows one religion or the other.

Uh...no? Athiests don't.

Yes they do. They have beliefs. All believe no god exists. Most believe evolution is true and all hate organiazed religion apart from 0.009% of them.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ism

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 18 février 2011 - 05:24 .

[stujlaird]

Elton John is dead wrote...

stujlaird wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Everyone follows one religion or the other.

Not true. I follow no religion, only my own conscience, as informed by all I've learned, from religious or non-religious sources. This doesn't mean I necessarily have a problem with anyone who follows a religion; whatever works for them, so long as they don't insult me for my view of the world, I won't insult them for theirs. I only have a problem when people try to use their religion to justify doing things that, to my view of the world, seem immoral.

Then you follow a religion. You have your own code you live by and your own beliefs. That what's religion is. Once you study religion more, you will realize this.

No, that is not what a religion is. For it to be a religion, it would require a codified system of beliefs, as a bare minimum. Most would also say that a religion has to involve other people, possibly certain numbers of them; others would state that it requires some spiritual elimant, such as a belief in life after death, or a belief in a deity. I have neither; merely some moral precepts that I more or less made up for myself, and are sometimes subject to change. As for 'Once you study religion more, you will realise this', that sentence assumes that I am going to study religion more, and that the inevitable result of studying something is coming to a set conclusion; some people study a religion and decide it is the faith for them; others study it and decide it's a scam. 

Further to my point, I present the top two definitions of Religion from dictionary.com (the later ones were mostly archaic uses)

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

Neither definition fits my world-view; it includes nothing about the nature of the universe, and is agreed upon by no-one except me - I disagree even with my parents on some things.

Cooling down, I repeat that I have no inherent issue with religions, but trying to claim my rather limited sense of personal morality is a religion just doesn't make sense.

[AlexXIV]

Elton John is dead wrote...

hamlin69 wrote...

Religion is just made up man, get over it.

Religion is a system of beliefs and how one lives their life. Google it and cry. Everyone follows one religion or the other.

Religion is organized faith, institutionalized so to speak. I am roman catholic, I still pay church taxes, but in my heart the catholic church is long dead. I still believe in god though and that Jesus was a great man. I have my own way to deal with god and the world and need nobody to insult my intelligence with silly stories. And I still consider myself christian, even if most religous christians would probably think I am agnostic or atheist. But whether I was angry at god or not, and whether I believe if there is a hell or not, I always believed god exists.

Edit: Maybe I should explain my point better hehe. You don't need the catholic church or the Chantry for that matter to be a good person in the eyes of god, or the Maker.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 18 février 2011 - 05:33 .

[stujlaird]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Everyone follows one religion or the other.

Uh...no? Athiests don't.

Yes they do. They have beliefs. All believe no god exists. Most believe evolution is true and all hate organiazed religion apart from 0.009% of them.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ism

That doesn't make them (including me, technically) a religion, though some do organise in a way that amounts to one (I'm looking at you, Richard Dawkins) and get into religious debates on that basis.

Also, semantic distinction, to 'follow' a religion, they would have to be obeying certain precepts set down by some authority on their 'religion'; many do not.

[LobselVith8]

Elton John is dead wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why does this thread need to turn into another mages vs. Chantry debate? 

Because the OP thought everyone thought that The Chantry was evil.

In other words... there's no reason it needed to turn into one.

Elton John is dead wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Your "analysis" of the debate ignored the entire basis for the argument people have made against what the Chantry does (and this thread does not need to be turned into another debate about this when we have several threads currently covering this issue), and people who disagree with the Chantry do not consider it evil but wrong. The people on the pro-mage debate aren't trying to say that the Chantry or the templars are evil but wrong in what they're doing. The entire debate is that people consider what the Chantry and its templars do to mages is morally wrong and essentially ineffective. Also, Connor wasn't with the Circle because his very religious mother didn't want him to be a mage.

Not all consider it wrong. Many consider it evil. You also forget that Connor's father didn't want him to be in the Circle either.

Andrastian societies consider it evil. The nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Chasind tribes don't because they have mages with non-mages. You forget Eamon wasn't aware of Connor's condition (according to Isolde), and Loghain only suspects as much.

Elton John is dead wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nice tower? This entire sentence is completely erroneous. People don't start revolutions because they're living in a "nice tower."

That sentance is erroneous in itself. It connects to the other sentance, without that, it makes no sense. The fact is - just one mage who becomes an abomination can destroy entire towns.

My sentence is accurate. There are mages who see the Chantry and its templars as oppressors. Having no basic rights and living in danger of being labelled maleficar and being killed or given a lobotomy doesn't make it a nice Tower.

Elton John is dead wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize Aneirin the Healer was power hungry. I didn't realize Jowan becoming Master Levyn and protecting the innocent was being power hungry. Any more inaccurate examples to provide us?

Anders wasn't power hungry either but he became it and who is to say that Jowan won't become the same? It's their anger that will corrupt the spirits they accept into their bodies. Regardless of their motives, look at what happened to Anders. Mages have done the most damage to the world of Thedas but they have also performed great deeds which is why they always need to be watched over.

Speculation doesn't constitute fact. You have no proof to back up your claim that free mages become power hungry when we see free mages who aren't power hungry. And given that there are mages who aren't being governed by the Chantry or its templars, that last line of yours is your theory on what should be the case.

[OldMan91]

Yes they do. They have beliefs. All believe no god exists. Most believe evolution is true and all hate organiazed religion apart from 0.009% of them.

Atheism is not a religion. You're assuming any belief is the same as having a religion, which isn't true.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Atheism:



http://www.bbc.co.uk...igions/atheism/



Religion like everything else.

[Noviere]

I'm an atheist, and I don't see the Chantry as a force of evil. I see it like most real-world religions -- an organization made up largely of good-intentioned people, that sadly has some very negative aspects buried within it.



I don't think of the Chantry as a mirror image of Catholicism either. While there are certainly some similarities between the two, it's clear that Bioware drew upon many other real-world religions when creating the Chantry.

[lost lupus]

comparing the chantry to any religion is just wrong why?

look at all the back story and level of detail that goes into the chantry the only thing that ties it in anyway to a set church is the black chantry where travinter changed things to suit their political agenda
and im sure the catholic protest thing isnt the only time thats happened

the point im trying to make here any parallel's drawn are done so because of a persons own knowledge
example: if i made a fiction take on a terrorist plot about a guy who thought the goverment was surpressing he's people and thus he attacks a goverment building

now in the US most people would look to timothy mcveigh, in uk people would compare it november 5th 1605 or the northern ireland conflict australia anyone over the age of 35 would compare it to the greenies who blew up the hilton

the point is your take on it all depens on your own knowledge any parallels you see between the chantry any church or religion instead of seeing how much detail bioware put into designing and fleshing it out are because you have skipped past it

will people do this? certainly will they draw negative outcomes of any church/religion because of it? no
why? because its that large of a stretch between the short coming of a real life church/religion and the chantry that to come to such conclusions the negative ideas on the real life religion/church MUST already exist within that person

and i say this as someone who has a negative stance on church and religion in general and takes it out on the chantry
(self-assement acheivement unlocked) in DA

Modifié par lost lupus, 18 février 2011 - 05:41 .

[Eveangaline]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheism:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...igions/atheism/

Religion like everything else.

Yeah, just because the person who made that site doesn't know what a religion is doesn't mean anything.

Athiesm is as much a religion as 'bald' is a hair color.

[Eternal Phoenix]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Why does this thread need to turn into another mages vs. Chantry debate? 

[/quote]

Because the OP thought everyone thought that The Chantry was evil. [/quote]

In other words... there's no reason it needed to turn into one.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Your "analysis" of the debate ignored the entire basis for the argument people have made against what the Chantry does (and this thread does not need to be turned into another debate about this when we have several threads currently covering this issue), and people who disagree with the Chantry do not consider it evil but wrong. The people on the pro-mage debate aren't trying to say that the Chantry or the templars are evil but wrong in what they're doing. The entire debate is that people consider what the Chantry and its templars do to mages is morally wrong and essentially ineffective. Also, Connor wasn't with the Circle because his very religious mother didn't want him to be a mage.

[/quote]

Not all consider it wrong. Many consider it evil. You also forget that Connor's father didn't want him to be in the Circle either. [/quote]

Andrastian societies consider it evil. The nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Chasind tribes don't because they have mages with non-mages. You forget Eamon wasn't aware of Connor's condition (according to Isolde), and Loghain only suspects as much.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Nice tower? This entire sentence is completely erroneous. People don't start revolutions because they're living in a "nice tower."[/quote]

That sentance is erroneous in itself. It connects to the other sentance, without that, it makes no sense. The fact is - just one mage who becomes an abomination can destroy entire towns. [/quote]

My sentence is accurate. There are mages who see the Chantry and its templars as oppressors. Having no basic rights and living in danger of being labelled maleficar and being killed or given a lobotomy doesn't make it a nice Tower.

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I didn't realize Aneirin the Healer was power hungry. I didn't realize Jowan becoming Master Levyn and protecting the innocent was being power hungry. Any more inaccurate examples to provide us?
[/quote]

Anders wasn't power hungry either but he became it and who is to say that Jowan won't become the same? It's their anger that will corrupt the spirits they accept into their bodies. Regardless of their motives, look at what happened to Anders. Mages have done the most damage to the world of Thedas but they have also performed great deeds which is why they always need to be watched over.
[/quote]

Speculation doesn't constitute fact. You have no proof to back up your claim that free mages become power hungry when we see free mages who aren't power hungry. And given that there are mages who aren't being governed by the Chantry or its templars, that last line of yours is your theory on what should be the case.[/quote]

Mages are only in danger of being killed if they become an abomination. Having all mages freely roaming the land will make many power hungry. Mages are almost divine beings who can almost do what they want. Some mages would do good and others would do bad. Others would become homes for demons. Having Templars to police them inside the tower is the best option. Maybe they should be allowed to live in towns where Templars are but I don't believe they should be set completely free unless they can truly be trusted.

[quote]Eveangaline wrote...

[quote]Elton John is dead wrote...

Atheism:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...igions/atheism/

Religion like everything else.[/quote]

Yeah, just because the person who made that site doesn't know what a religion is doesn't mean anything.

Athiesm is as much a religion as 'bald' is a hair color.[/quote]

BBC is not made by one person...
Atheism is a religion. Deal with it.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 18 février 2011 - 05:42 .