1724 réponses à ce sujet

[Peter Thomas]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Any information on how fortitude works? Does it have diminishing returns like attack/defense? I am tempted to put all my points into strength because I hate losing control of my character, but I would also like to be able to diversify my attributes a bit and still have top notch stun resistance.There is no tooltip clarifying how fortitude works like there is with attack/defense for example I know that I can put only 2 points per level in strength and still have nearly 100% attack across the board. This knowledge allows me to invest in other attributes, however there is no tooltip for fortitude saying I have a 90% chance to resist stuns against normal, elite, or boss characters. Can you elaborate on how fortitude works?

Force reactions work based on how much damage you take vs your total health.if any single hit does more than 10% of your max health, you'll play a reaction animation (of arying strength) and your current action will be interrupted. Some attacks have a bonus to force as well (say a x2 multiplier, so 5% of your health in one hit counts as if it was 10% for force purposes).

(Damage * Force Multiplier) - Fortitude = Force of the attack

[Adhin]

What do you mean get the locked ones? If your referring to the screenshots he has, they're photos taking from a screen at a recent (very recent) convention. It's of a more current build then the Demo is. Demo is from months back as far as skill web layout and has a ton of stuff locked up, its just to give an idea of what the combat will be like.

[Rasputin]

Epic post. Thanks for all the info man... I was wondering how I was going to ba able to pre-plan out my character(s)...

[Adhin]

Sounds like my str/con build warrior gonna have the best chance of staying on his feet then. I do like how max HP plays a factor in it, was almost no point to pay attention to your health in the last game. Healing was completely static and it had no barrings on anything else.

[andar91]

Peter, I'm really, really curious about something. If the talents listed here are more recent than the demo build, than I have to say some of the cooldowns seems excessively long on the mage abilities (I specify mage because I know them the best). A 20 second cooldown on Winter's Grasp, for example, when we can get it so early seems a bit long in my opinion. There are other spells as well. Fifteen I might have understood, but 20 seems long for a starting ability, especially when basic attacks don't do a whole lot of damage.



I haven't played the final game-maybe it works great. But I'm curious as to what the rationale was on the cooldowns being so long (or short in some cases). And, of course, the fact that they reset is awesome and alleviates the problem for short encounters. The problem is that you're often mobbed my enemies in waves.



Enlighten me?

[Sabresandiego]

Peter Thomas wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Any information on how fortitude works? Does it have diminishing returns like attack/defense? I am tempted to put all my points into strength because I hate losing control of my character, but I would also like to be able to diversify my attributes a bit and still have top notch stun resistance.There is no tooltip clarifying how fortitude works like there is with attack/defense for example I know that I can put only 2 points per level in strength and still have nearly 100% attack across the board. This knowledge allows me to invest in other attributes, however there is no tooltip for fortitude saying I have a 90% chance to resist stuns against normal, elite, or boss characters. Can you elaborate on how fortitude works?

Force reactions work based on how much damage you take vs your total health.if any single hit does more than 10% of your max health, you'll play a reaction animation (of arying strength) and your current action will be interrupted. Some attacks have a bonus to force as well (say a x2 multiplier, so 5% of your health in one hit counts as if it was 10% for force purposes).

(Damage * Force Multiplier) - Fortitude = Force of the attack

So if I am reading correctly, having a high fortitude doesnt prevent the reaction animation from occuring but instead it lowers the duration and magnitude of the animation. On the other hand, having a high hp pool may prevent the animation from occuring altogether by making it so that a hit that would have been more than 10% of you health pool is now less than 10% of your hp pool. So technically, putting a few points in strength and a few points in constitution might be a better solution to not being "interrupted by force animations" than just pumping strength for maximum fortitude.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 février 2011 - 02:52 .

[Morroian]

andar91 wrote...

Peter, I'm really, really curious about something. If the talents listed here are more recent than the demo build, than I have to say some of the cooldowns seems excessively long on the mage abilities (I specify mage because I know them the best). A 20 second cooldown on Winter's Grasp, for example, when we can get it so early seems a bit long in my opinion. There are other spells as well. Fifteen I might have understood, but 20 seems long for a starting ability, especially when basic attacks don't do a whole lot of damage.

Winters Grasp seemed OK to me, the one that stood out was healing.

[Adhin]

Erm yes and no? Fortitude as far as force is concerned (via either elemental or physical means) end up doing the same thing. Since its based off your chars maxHP (a percent of that) high HP will help, and Fortitude will directly effect the overall number. So lets say you have 100 hp, and they do 20 dmg to you. 10 was enough to toss you around but you have 15 Fortitude, force would be lowered to 5 in that case and your safe.

Abilities seem to really ramp it up though they seem to do x2-x4 actual base damage and then on top of that they do x2-x4 the 'force'. So lets say you do 10 base dmg, Mighty Blow looks to be like x4 dmg so thats 40, then you do x2 the force so while your doing 40 dmg, the 'force' ends up being 80 instead of 40.

[Sabresandiego]

Adhin wrote...

Erm yes and no? Fortitude as far as force is concerned (via either elemental or physical means) end up doing the same thing. Since its based off your chars maxHP (a percent of that) high HP will help, and Fortitude will directly effect the overall number. So lets say you have 100 hp, and they do 20 dmg to you. 10 was enough to toss you around but you have 15 Fortitude, force would be lowered to 5 in that case and your safe.
Abilities seem to really ramp it up though they seem to do x2-x4 actual base damage and then on top of that they do x2-x4 the 'force'. So lets say you do 10 base dmg, Mighty Blow looks to be like x4 dmg so thats 40, then you do x2 the force so while your doing 40 dmg, the 'force' ends up being 80 instead of 40.

If that is how it works then here is the math.
1 strength is 1 fortitude
1 fortitude is worth 1 damage of force reduction 
1 constitution is 5 health
1 damage is 20% of 5 health
therefore 1 constitution is worth .5 damage of force reduction
therefore constitution is half as good as strength at force reduction

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 février 2011 - 03:07 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

andar91 wrote...

Peter, I'm really, really curious about something. If the talents listed here are more recent than the demo build, than I have to say some of the cooldowns seems excessively long on the mage abilities (I specify mage because I know them the best). A 20 second cooldown on Winter's Grasp, for example, when we can get it so early seems a bit long in my opinion.

Yeah, 20 sec cooldown (same C/D as fireball) seems excessive for a one target "starter" spell.

[Sabresandiego]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Peter, I'm really, really curious about something. If the talents listed here are more recent than the demo build, than I have to say some of the cooldowns seems excessively long on the mage abilities (I specify mage because I know them the best). A 20 second cooldown on Winter's Grasp, for example, when we can get it so early seems a bit long in my opinion.

Yeah, 20 sec cooldown (same C/D as fireball) seems excessive for a one target "starter" spell.

2h Warrior starting ability, mighty blow, is also 20 seconds. They want low levels to autoattack for the most part. And later in the game they probably want to see diversity in spell use, not spamming the same ability over and over.

[Adhin]

@Sabresandiego: Yup that's about right if you look at it that way. Str is still better for absorbing force, though that doesn't directly account for %based healing. Though I still plan to get enough str for requirements on armor and then pump Con to horribly stupid amounts. I know the demo isn't a clear example of things to come but it looks like you don't gain HP from lvl anymore (which seems odd). Least in the demo its base HP depending on class then its all CON points from there. So a Warrior with say 40 Con would end up with something like 300hp. I'm really hoping Berserker comes with a passive or upgrade that increases HP in %, making Con even more worth wild.

[Sabresandiego]

Adhin wrote...

@Sabresandiego: Yup that's about right if you look at it that way. Str is still better for absorbing force, though that doesn't directly account for %based healing. Though I still plan to get enough str for requirements on armor and then pump Con to horribly stupid amounts. I know the demo isn't a clear example of things to come but it looks like you don't gain HP from lvl anymore (which seems odd). Least in the demo its base HP depending on class then its all CON points from there. So a Warrior with say 40 Con would end up with something like 300hp. I'm really hoping Berserker comes with a passive or upgrade that increases HP in %, making Con even more worth wild.

I like the idea of a massive constitution warrior. Reaver is probably going to be the best spec for something like that. You really dont need more than 1 point in strength per level because you can get +10% attack from a few different sources. Something like 1 strength and 2 constitution per level can be a beast later in the game, especially when you factor in healing.

[Adhin]

Yeah you saw my build I think (ive been posted it all over the place like an idiot). But it basically relies on fully upgraded Bravery for damage boosts. But just at base going up against 3 guys at once (horribly common) is +20% chance to hit increase. That's pretty damn huge considering you hit pretty often as is. In any kind of group fight that skill basically 'ensures' your hit rates 100% always.

Modifié par Adhin, 24 février 2011 - 03:57 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Sabresandiego wrote...

2h Warrior starting ability, mighty blow, is also 20 seconds. They want low levels to autoattack for the most part. And later in the game they probably want to see diversity in spell use, not spamming the same ability over and over.

The two handed warrior's autoattacks are much more powerful (and affect multiple creatures.) The Mighty Blow also seems to start out more powerful than Winter's Grasp in the demo.

[godlike13]

Naitaka wrote...

4. Corrosive Walking Bomb
Requires: Level 8
Requires: Walking Bomb
Points required in Spirit: 3
Walking Bomb now includes a corrosive effect that inflicts continual spirit damage. If the enemy dies while the effect is active, it explodes, harming all foes nearby.
Spirit damage: 16 vs. victim
Spirit damage: 200% vs. victim If DISORIENTED
Type: Upgrade

A little confused by this. So what it does 16 damage over 10 seconds.

Modifié par godlike13, 24 février 2011 - 04:02 .

[Adhin]

Yeah godlike13, but keep in mind all that damage listed is based off what amounts to a lvl1-3 Mage with low Magic stat. ALL of that will increase to much much higher amounts with just a few lvls. They've said damage for all skills is basically your (weapon + stat) * Skill modifier. The modifier doesn't seem to be shown at all but you can see the total via the skill its self. Looks like walking Bomb is probably an x2, maybe x3-4, done over the course of its duration. It was never a heavy dmg skill in its DoT form it was all about its explosion, even in DAO.

[Sinvael]

Adhin wrote...

Erm yes and no? Fortitude as far as force is concerned (via either elemental or physical means) end up doing the same thing. Since its based off your chars maxHP (a percent of that) high HP will help, and Fortitude will directly effect the overall number. So lets say you have 100 hp, and they do 20 dmg to you. 10 was enough to toss you around but you have 15 Fortitude, force would be lowered to 5 in that case and your safe.
Abilities seem to really ramp it up though they seem to do x2-x4 actual base damage and then on top of that they do x2-x4 the 'force'. So lets say you do 10 base dmg, Mighty Blow looks to be like x4 dmg so thats 40, then you do x2 the force so while your doing 40 dmg, the 'force' ends up being 80 instead of 40.

I'm not sure that's quite what Peter meant.  The way I read his post, 10% or more of max health in damage will always cause a reaction of some duration, but fortitude will reduce the force of the attack, and therefore the duration of said reaction.  Admittedly, your interpretation makes some sense as well, so this may benefit from more clarification.

While I'm here, I also had a wonderment as to the interaction of Ambush and Backstab - specifically, do you need to be stealthed before activating Backstab to benefit from Ambush (I assume so), or does Backstab automatically stealth you? (it's not mentioned, as such, but seems potentially plausible)

Modifié par Sinvael, 24 février 2011 - 04:47 .

[Adhin]

Yeah I'd like to get a direct confirmation as to % of maxHP being the 'check against' for force applied. That being higher HP increases the 'check' for the whole thing. For instance something like this.

((Damage * ForceMod) - Fortitude) > maxHP*0.1

Modifié par Adhin, 24 février 2011 - 04:50 .

[Sinvael]

Adhin wrote...

He said 10% but a skill with x2 would only need 5%. It may not actually use %hp to determine when you get knocked back and its just a certain amount of force is required (and fortitude lessens that) but I'm pretty sure it uses a % of your max HP to decide where the thresholds are. Reason it would require 5% instead of 10% because of x2 is that if say you have 200 hp, your threshhold would be 20+ any dmg over 20 (with no fort) would cause a staggering effect. If you use a skill thats x2 force and you do say, 10 dmg, it ends up being 20 force instead of 10.
But yeah clarification if it uses a percent of MaxHP to determine any given characters threshold for that kind of stuff (what it checks against) would be pretty awesome.

Ah, good point.  I missed the implications of the force multiplier stuff, so you're probably correct.

[Adhin]

I edited my post cause I felt like I came off as a bit of a dick, sorry =P

[Sinvael]

heh, it's fine d=

[Peter Thomas]

andar91 wrote...

Peter, I'm really, really curious about something. If the talents listed here are more recent than the demo build, than I have to say some of the cooldowns seems excessively long on the mage abilities (I specify mage because I know them the best). A 20 second cooldown on Winter's Grasp, for example, when we can get it so early seems a bit long in my opinion. There are other spells as well. Fifteen I might have understood, but 20 seems long for a starting ability, especially when basic attacks don't do a whole lot of damage.

I haven't played the final game-maybe it works great. But I'm curious as to what the rationale was on the cooldowns being so long (or short in some cases). And, of course, the fact that they reset is awesome and alleviates the problem for short encounters. The problem is that you're often mobbed my enemies in waves.

Enlighten me?

The basis for combat is that a two-handed weapon should kill a critter rank hurlock in ~4.2 hits. That's how enemy health and weapon damage is related.

The basis for ability damage is that 20 stamina/mana with a cooldown of 20 seconds will kill an equal level critter in one shot. Add secondary effects, damage goes down if the cost is the same. Increase damage, cost or cooldown goes up. Others had their cost/cooldown set to something for very specific reasons (I'm guessing Heal is one of your concerns; that one was balance; I wanted 60s) like Healing Aura and Blood Magic. Why use 20/20? It felt decent. Too fast cooldowns and abilities are spammed constantly. Too low cost and stamina/mana is no longer a limiting factor. As you play, if you use abilities on everything, you'll find they're always in cooldown and never there when you need them. With certain exceptions (Tempest), I generally didn't use my abilities on critters at all. I saved them to combine on the larger creatures that can pop up in the middle of waves.

Oh, and the after combat cooldown reset doesn't happen in Nightmare.

[Sabresandiego]

Peter Thomas wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Peter, I'm really, really curious about something. If the talents listed here are more recent than the demo build, than I have to say some of the cooldowns seems excessively long on the mage abilities (I specify mage because I know them the best). A 20 second cooldown on Winter's Grasp, for example, when we can get it so early seems a bit long in my opinion. There are other spells as well. Fifteen I might have understood, but 20 seems long for a starting ability, especially when basic attacks don't do a whole lot of damage.

I haven't played the final game-maybe it works great. But I'm curious as to what the rationale was on the cooldowns being so long (or short in some cases). And, of course, the fact that they reset is awesome and alleviates the problem for short encounters. The problem is that you're often mobbed my enemies in waves.

Enlighten me?

The basis for combat is that a two-handed weapon should kill a critter rank hurlock in ~4.2 hits. That's how enemy health and weapon damage is related.

The basis for ability damage is that 20 stamina/mana with a cooldown of 20 seconds will kill an equal level critter in one shot. Add secondary effects, damage goes down if the cost is the same. Increase damage, cost or cooldown goes up. Others had their cost/cooldown set to something for very specific reasons (I'm guessing Heal is one of your concerns; that one was balance; I wanted 60s) like Healing Aura and Blood Magic. Why use 20/20? It felt decent. Too fast cooldowns and abilities are spammed constantly. Too low cost and stamina/mana is no longer a limiting factor. As you play, if you use abilities on everything, you'll find they're always in cooldown and never there when you need them. With certain exceptions (Tempest), I generally didn't use my abilities on critters at all. I saved them to combine on the larger creatures that can pop up in the middle of waves.

Oh, and the after combat cooldown reset doesn't happen in Nightmare.

So then the data listed in this thread is roughly equivalant to the final build (gold release) in terms of cooldowns, stam/mana cost, etc?

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 février 2011 - 06:45 .

[Peter Thomas]

Adhin wrote...

Yeah godlike13, but keep in mind all that damage listed is based off what amounts to a lvl1-3 Mage with low Magic stat. ALL of that will increase to much much higher amounts with just a few lvls. They've said damage for all skills is basically your (weapon + stat) * Skill modifier. The modifier doesn't seem to be shown at all but you can see the total via the skill its self. Looks like walking Bomb is probably an x2, maybe x3-4, done over the course of its duration. It was never a heavy dmg skill in its DoT form it was all about its explosion, even in DAO.

It's basically like getting a free Spirit Bolt extra.

One thing I'm not sure about is if people read the detailed description of Walking Bomb. It does the creature's health in damage to everyone near it. Based on how many times you hit it, how much health did the demo ogre have? Lots.