1724 réponses à ce sujet

[Adhin]

See this is why I was going to avoid mass AoE active skills for my 2H warrior tank. Partly why I'm a tad peeved you 'have' to take Mighty Blow just to get into the passives. Also the 'massive damage reduction in WnS Tree' isn't that massive Naitaka, Armor has a larger impact, Peter went over that.

Damage Resistance is %resistance for all forms of damage and its multiplied outside of the Armor %. Flanking Immunity is the real WnS bonus you just can't get with 2H but the rest is negligible. Remember he'd build his Hawke to use both styles and switch depending on the situation.

Anyways say a monster does 40 dmg you have just 60% armor (max is 80% so I figure you'll get over 60% more constantly mid-end game). And that 25% damage resistance. 2H warrior would take 16 dmg, WnS would take 12. Its a difference but its not that massive. And considering that comes with having to only hit 1 enemy ad -25% your damage output, the 2H warrior will always be killing off the larger groups quicker.

I know that modes kinda designed as a 'group survival' thing but I'd rather have on Bravery with Bravura and kill them quickly. Plus as you all know (Stanley pointed it out in another thread, I can quote if yall need) they've upgraded 2H warrior a bit to make it less weak early on. Plus all the skills are setup differently. If your 1 shotting Aveline, at lvl 2-6 with Mighty Blow in the demo something is horribly wrong, and it aint due to your play style.

The thing only does about 100-ish damage at lvl 9, with 60% armor that shouldn't be an auto-kill, let alone at lvl 2 when you find her. Good chance FF (like the character creator) isn't properly implemented in the demo, and its not taking armor into account, auto-attacks may not be glancing blows either like they are in the full game. Know telling what else isn't working right.

That said the idea of using that 100% immunity thing just prior to having some massive AoE tick in on the Warrior while tanking? Brilliant idea! didn't even think about that for some reason.

[Rocambole4]

Naitaka wrote...
Well, we'll see, I'm just not too hopeful about 2h warrior's ability to tank large group of enemies without immunity to flanking and critical, plus the massive damage reduction in the weapon and shield tree. If they don't auto-level our companions when we meet them, I might just skip Giant's Reach on anyone who use 2h altogether. Ontop of that, I'm planning to use alot of the party-based sustainable in nightmare and I don't want to send a lone party member out of the 10~16m range unless it's absolutely necessary.

I also don't think it's gonna be feasible (nightmare wise). Playing on normal is completely different, I'll try to 2h tank myself, but usually nightmare requires really good builds, and 1 tank (oldschool, with sword + board) and 1 healer are probably necessary. If you want to open locks, a rogue. So Halke is gonna be either the 2nd warrior or the 2nd mage.

[Naitaka]

Adhin wrote...
That said the idea of using that 100% immunity thing just prior to having some massive AoE tick in on the Warrior while tanking? Brilliant idea! didn't even think about that for some reason.

I've done it back in the days with Sigrun in Awakening. She was very sturdy for a rogue, and adorable at the same time!

[Ultimecia]

I think you can counter Mage Elemental FF (hello Fireball) for Warriors with the upgraded Arcane Shield (+20% elemental resistance to the party) and taking Elemental Aegis for one point (+40%, you can add an additional +20% through the upgrade of Elemental Aegis), putting you on 60/80% elemental resistance before gear.
Then again you could ofcourse just play it like BG2 and actually aim your fireballs (good times

Modifié par Ultimecia, 01 mars 2011 - 07:58 .

[Adhin]

Yeah first time I got her I made the mistake of doing that part last, couldn't get her to be a warden due to how that game forces you into stuff and I was going to use her as my primary rogue but due to the lvl she started at didn't have the cunning to go full lockpicking. Course by then I didn't care and kept her as my rogue anyways. End games end game, wasn't going to find some super-amazing-item just before end boss in a locked chest heh.

I don't remember rogues getting a 100% immunity vs all damage ability though.

[Nighteye2]

Alodar wrote...

I'm going to repeat a post made by John Epler in the mod thread:

JohnEpler wrote...

Bear in mind, of course, that Nightmare
was not balanced at the time of this build. The fact that some of you
folks are taking a difficulty option that was unlocked via fan mods as
'this is how it'll be in the final game', well, I'd be careful about
doing so.

Of course, the fact that assumptions are already being
made suggests that my warnings will likely fall on deaf ears for some,
but hey.

Alodar

Great, I hope they made it harder. The demo was too easy on Nightmare, especially the Kirkwall part...

[EvilDeity]

Will Stonewall with Bulwark provide 100% damage resistance or 75%? And will having 100% damage resistance make you invulnerable to all damage, or is it just for physical damage? I hear Spirit damage halves your damage resistance for calculation purposes.

[Adhin]

heh Pommel Blow, sounds like a medieval porno.

Anyways I have recently changed my 2h'er build, no 2H skills at all, switched that stuff over to Defender for increased survivability.

@EvilDiety: Damage Resist is a universal resistance thats multiplied along with (instead of added to) other damage sources, Magic resist works same way. I forget if Spirit Damage halves Magic Resist or Damage Resist. Armor, for instance is basically Physical Resistence, it'll lower damage of Stone Fist since thats physical based, then you got the 5 elemental types and damage resist goes along with that universally, Magic Resist same thing but only vs spells.

So something like: Damage * Armor/Resist * DamageResist * MagicResist

Pretty sure Bulwark is 100% with the upgrade, making you immune to dmg for 5 seconds, but I dunno could be wrong. Oddly enough with how Magic Resist and Damage Resist works, it looks like martial skills potentially have less things getting in there way of doing damage, except that 'Armor' is much more likely to be come up against so that's probably the balancing factor there.

[godlike13]

Ultimecia wrote...

I think you can counter Mage Elemental FF (hello Fireball) for Warriors with the upgraded Arcane Shield (+20% elemental resistance to the party) and taking Elemental Aegis for one point (+40%, you can add an additional +20% through the upgrade of Elemental Aegis), putting you on 60/80% elemental resistance before gear.
Then again you could ofcourse just play it like BG2 and actually aim your fireballs (good times

The upgraded Arcane Shield, Arcane Wall, only give a 5% bonus to ur party.

Peter Thomas wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

The reason I ask is because arcane shield/ arcane wall is a permanent aura that does something similar. The wording isnt clear on rally and last push. I would expect last push to be really good for being a level 14 ability.

Something that wasn't in that build... Arcane Wall gives a reduced benefit to party members, 5% not the full 20%. And it doesn't stack.

That said, a Mage who activates Arcane Shield while under the effect of another Mage's Arcane Shield will get the 20% bonus, not the 5% one. They're both on the character, but it only pays attention to the higher one. The same thing is used for slow effects. If you Winter's Grasp (-50% slow) an enemy who is already affected by Cone of Cold (-75% slow), the enemy will only be -75% slow. When that wears off, they will be at -50% until Winter's Grasp wears off too. Most partywide buffs are non-stacking like that.

Edit: Except for slow effects, they don't stack if they're from the same ability. Getting an Attack bonus from 2 different abilities is fine.

Modifié par godlike13, 01 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[Zhel_Ryn]

@Adhin: Legionnaire Scout had Strength of Stone which gave them damage immunity for a short period.

For my TH build, I'm still holding out final decisions for retail and seeing what all is in the specializations. I'm expecting I won't be taking Scythe, and Whirlwind will be towards the end of the priority list for skills we know of. Mighty Blow and Giant's Reach will likely be grabbed in the first 5 levels though, as it's both good damage and damage mitigation (in the form of wobbly mobs =P). Add Taunt and Stonewall and I have my early game plan at least, though.

Now to figure out how to build the 1-2 mages in my party, that's a better question to wrap my head on. =\\

[Rocambole4]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

@Adhin: Legionnaire Scout had Strength of Stone which gave them damage immunity for a short period.

For my TH build, I'm still holding out final decisions for retail and seeing what all is in the specializations. I'm expecting I won't be taking Scythe, and Whirlwind will be towards the end of the priority list for skills we know of. Mighty Blow and Giant's Reach will likely be grabbed in the first 5 levels though, as it's both good damage and damage mitigation (in the form of wobbly mobs =P). Add Taunt and Stonewall and I have my early game plan at least, though.

Now to figure out how to build the 1-2 mages in my party, that's a better question to wrap my head on. =

I guess one of them will have to be a full specced healer, including Arcane for shields and damage mitigation.

[Adhin]

Well yeah from my own speculation on what Reaver/Berserker will have based off the icons, site description and knowing what they're based off from DAO my 'build' only takes up 11 points. That's counting Pummel Strike. Leaving 7-8 open for Berserker hopefully but ultimately I can have all the base stuff in and done by lvl 11, leaving 12+ all specialization advancement.

And Legionnaire Scout.. right, I barely payed attention to rogue stuff, few things I liked I remembered rest I just kinda ignored but now that yall mention it, I did notice her popping up with 'Immune!' a lot.

Anyways I figure I'll be having fully upgraded Stonewall and Turn the Blade, 15% Defense via sustained, to me, seems a bit more useful then 60% resistance. I know 60% resistance is gonna be sweet but Defense via any other means wont be static and will be lvl dependent. Where as Resist on Armor and items will, ultimately, never change in value. Kinda silly reasoning but Stonewall -> Turn the Blade -> Adamant I like, 5% Damage Resist base just always there.

Plus the idea that Bulwark will make one immune letting you do a quick AoE splurge while keeping my char unharmed is pretty nice. Also if one can get there stamina regeneration up high enough you could keep Stonewall up constantly, upgraded its a 10s cooldown, last 5 seconds. 20 Stamina so, if you can get most of that back in 10 seconds you could keep immune half the fight, that'll definitely help keep him alive.

[Zhel_Ryn]

@Adhin: Still quite the similar builds! I'm mainly just debating on Whirlwind vs. Tremor and Turn vs. Aegis, as well as if Rally would be a good grab if just for 50% bar regens. Most likely I bet the builds will differ on Specializations, since I will likely go for Templar over Berserker, 'les the ability details just blow my mind or something.

@Rocambole: Well, no reason for any of the Mages not to have Heal (and possibly even Barrier) if they have access to it. Figuring out more of who's going to be the primary dps mage, and balancing their magic out with willpower accordingly, as well as picking out the specific spells for each character. I also have to keep in mind one mage is likely to be swapped out for other characters due to needing or wanting specific companions for specific plots/situations.

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 01 mars 2011 - 11:42 .

[Razorfish]

 Just dropping by the let you know that, over the weekend, I wrote a quick web-based talent builder that lets you create talent builds and share them with a custom url. It's in a rough state and only has the data for the Warrior class, so far (still working on the others), so I didn't feel comfortable making a new post, but perhaps it might be useful in this discussion thread.

http://biowarefans.c...talent-builder/

I could use your help testing it for kinks. Basically, I took the talent tree screenshots from the official site, married them with the data Naitaka posted in this thread, and made it interactive using some javascript. It worked in IE8, Chrome, and Firefox3 on both Windows and OSX last I checked.

Individual abilities in the talent lists you build can be dragged and dropped to change the build order, but I haven't written in checks yet to make sure that you actually put them in a valid order (clicking talents in the trees to select them does check for validity on the other hand). Click the Save button to update the URL in the browser's address bar with a code that represents your build:

Just as an example, http://biowarefans.c...#wHkbzct1V0UeDX loads up 10 ability and 1 specialization selections.

Modifié par Razorfish, 02 mars 2011 - 12:05 .

[JulianoV]

Rocambole4 wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
Well, we'll see, I'm just not too hopeful about 2h warrior's ability to tank large group of enemies without immunity to flanking and critical, plus the massive damage reduction in the weapon and shield tree. If they don't auto-level our companions when we meet them, I might just skip Giant's Reach on anyone who use 2h altogether. Ontop of that, I'm planning to use alot of the party-based sustainable in nightmare and I don't want to send a lone party member out of the 10~16m range unless it's absolutely necessary.

I also don't think it's gonna be feasible (nightmare wise). Playing on normal is completely different, I'll try to 2h tank myself, but usually nightmare requires really good builds, and 1 tank (oldschool, with sword + board) and 1 healer are probably necessary. If you want to open locks, a rogue. So Halke is gonna be either the 2nd warrior or the 2nd mage.

Well, you CAN bump a 2H warrior's defense to something like 75/85 with Heroic Aura, Battle Sinergy(both on other characters) and upgraded Turn the Blade, plus the obvious points in cunning. If you keep an exclusive tank for Lieutenants/bosses with a Rogue using the Goad skill to help her manage the aggro sufficiently far away from the 2H warrior, the latter could remain unscathed by the mobs and outright destroy them with his sweet, sweet AoE from a Cleave-Whirlwind/Cyclone/Tornado-Giant's Reach-Might/Muscle-Bravery/Bravura; With zero points in Willpower he'd be left with only 30 points in stamina after this, rendering the character pretty much a one trick pony unless having Second Wind. If the game didn't focus so much on waves of enemies this could be a nice room-cleaning strategy.

I might even try it on a lower difficulty if it proves completely rubbish on nightmare ^^

[Adhin]

@Zhel_Ryn: Yeah I was debating weather or not to get Tremor but it's less damage oriented and more 'scatter' stuff. Which doesn't really sit well with tanking as much as I'd like. It's kinda nice to just remove damage for a bit from you but ultimately its throwing things around which can quickly lead to (least in other games) other party members taking the flack for it. Anyways heres my restructuring of tank-2H'er:

Kurn Hawke - Warrior / Berserker / Reaver
1: Pommel Strike - A
2: Stonewall - A
3: Taunt - A
4: Turn The Blade - S
5: Pommel Blow - P
6: Bravery - S
7: Adamant - P
8: Bulwark - P
9: Bravado - U (Bravery)
10: Bravura - U (Bravery)
-------------------------------------------------
11: Raise the Guard - U (if nothing else)
12: Bolster - A (if needed)
13: Deep Reserves - P (if nothing else and have bolster)

I figure if I'm having stamina issues I'll nab Bolster, and then Deep Reserves (static .25% regen all the time). Figure some kind of combo like Stonewall -> Bolster would work out good, go immune then quickly get back 5% of your stamina that you consumed using it, help negate some of the cost kinda thing. Wont do much dmg but the whole point of the skills to shrug off any immediate damage incoming so would work well against that whole mage AoE attacks.

Also I'm pretty sure Berserker will involve some kind of stamina management, probably via an active or maybe a boost to stamina per kill kinda thing, not sure. Hoping Berserker will let me ignore Bolster/Reserves, never know though. Least not till I got the game 'and' unlock the specialization. Or someone gets a guide and posts specialization details on wiki =P

Modifié par Adhin, 02 mars 2011 - 12:35 .

[godlike13]

JulianoV wrote...

Rocambole4 wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
Well, we'll see, I'm just not too hopeful about 2h warrior's ability to tank large group of enemies without immunity to flanking and critical, plus the massive damage reduction in the weapon and shield tree. If they don't auto-level our companions when we meet them, I might just skip Giant's Reach on anyone who use 2h altogether. Ontop of that, I'm planning to use alot of the party-based sustainable in nightmare and I don't want to send a lone party member out of the 10~16m range unless it's absolutely necessary.

I also don't think it's gonna be feasible (nightmare wise). Playing on normal is completely different, I'll try to 2h tank myself, but usually nightmare requires really good builds, and 1 tank (oldschool, with sword + board) and 1 healer are probably necessary. If you want to open locks, a rogue. So Halke is gonna be either the 2nd warrior or the 2nd mage.

Well, you CAN bump a 2H warrior's defense to something like 75/85 with Heroic Aura, Battle Sinergy(both on other characters) and upgraded Turn the Blade, plus the obvious points in cunning. If you keep an exclusive tank for Lieutenants/bosses with a Rogue using the Goad skill to help her manage the aggro sufficiently far away from the 2H warrior, the latter could remain unscathed by the mobs and outright destroy them with his sweet, sweet AoE from a Cleave-Whirlwind/Cyclone/Tornado-Giant's Reach-Might/Muscle-Bravery/Bravura; With zero points in Willpower he'd be left with only 30 points in stamina after this, rendering the character pretty much a one trick pony unless having Second Wind. If the game didn't focus so much on waves of enemies this could be a nice room-cleaning strategy.

I might even try it on a lower difficulty if it proves completely rubbish on nightmare ^^

This is very cool, thanks

[Aroya]

A question that could clear a lot up about friendly fire. Difficulties under nightmare, does friendly fire completely ignore allies? What I mean does it just not deal damage and effects you with force, knockdown, freeze etc? Or does it completely have no effect?

[Zhel_Ryn]

@Razorfish: Nice builder. I am finding a few issues with removing talents previously picked (Turn the Blade was giving an error saying I had a talent that required them), plus Pommel Strike is a given talent at level 1. Besides those, it works pretty well!

@Adhin: My conflict is mainly talent point usage. It would either be 2 talents for Tremor, which gives breathing room plus 40% stagger, so would be followed immediately by chain lightning and taunt if needed. Whirlwind would take 3 to get 50% stagger, less chance of breathing room, but it does have good damage, plus Sunder is a likely taken talent anyway since crit chance should be decent with Varric around.

Acyl Hawke - Warrior/Templar/Reaver
1: Pommel Strike - A
2: Stonewall - A
3. Taunt - A
4. Mighty Blow - A
5. Giant's Reach - P
6. Turn the Blade - S
7. Sunder - P
8. Bravery - S
9. Bulwark - U
---
10+: Templar/Reaver talents that help survival or give cheap but decent actives. Killer/Shattering Blow pending how often I have a Brittle-maker in the party; Bravura/Bravado, Raise/Steady, Tremor/Whirlwind+upgrades if talents permit.

Mages will likely be Anders (primary dps with Primal spells, high magic, plus spec), and second one depends on what's in Merrill's Pariah vs. Beth's Creation and spec trees. If Merrill, Anders will pick up Valor Aura, Haste if talents permit; if Bethany, she will pick up those buffs instead.
Varric will be Varric =P.

That's my 'current' idea for going into the game. 1-5 I don't really see doing anything else; after that will depend on the companion specs and how I've fared up to that point, defense vs. offense since the rest of the talents don't have high level requirements, they can be rearranged however is needed.

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 02 mars 2011 - 12:46 .

[JulianoV]

godlike13 wrote...

JulianoV wrote...

Rocambole4 wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
Well, we'll see, I'm just not too hopeful about 2h warrior's ability to tank large group of enemies without immunity to flanking and critical, plus the massive damage reduction in the weapon and shield tree. If they don't auto-level our companions when we meet them, I might just skip Giant's Reach on anyone who use 2h altogether. Ontop of that, I'm planning to use alot of the party-based sustainable in nightmare and I don't want to send a lone party member out of the 10~16m range unless it's absolutely necessary.

I also don't think it's gonna be feasible (nightmare wise). Playing on normal is completely different, I'll try to 2h tank myself, but usually nightmare requires really good builds, and 1 tank (oldschool, with sword + board) and 1 healer are probably necessary. If you want to open locks, a rogue. So Halke is gonna be either the 2nd warrior or the 2nd mage.

Well, you CAN bump a 2H warrior's defense to something like 75/85 with Heroic Aura, Battle Sinergy(both on other characters) and upgraded Turn the Blade, plus the obvious points in cunning. If you keep an exclusive tank for Lieutenants/bosses with a Rogue using the Goad skill to help her manage the aggro sufficiently far away from the 2H warrior, the latter could remain unscathed by the mobs and outright destroy them with his sweet, sweet AoE from a Cleave-Whirlwind/Cyclone/Tornado-Giant's Reach-Might/Muscle-Bravery/Bravura; With zero points in Willpower he'd be left with only 30 points in stamina after this, rendering the character pretty much a one trick pony unless having Second Wind. If the game didn't focus so much on waves of enemies this could be a nice room-cleaning strategy.

I might even try it on a lower difficulty if it proves completely rubbish on nightmare ^^

This is very cool, thanks

Keep in mind that's a tremendously demanding build in both stamina and talent point usage. As soon as the specializations are revealed chances are a much better alternative will come up. As it stands, it would demand some investment in willpower to maintain Turn the Tide, Bravery and Might up and actually have SOMETHING left. We're looking at a 70% stamina reduction >D Turn the Tide is probably dispensable in this equation though. 15% defense for 3 talent points and 20% less stamina seems like a bad tradeoff.

I'd like something on the lines of "restore X health for every enemy killed" on the reaver line. That would potentially make the 2 handed warrior an absolute machine.

It's a mass nuking one trick pony, but one that I can easily see being very fun, first and foremost because killing lots of stuff at once is tear-inducing rewarding, and secondly that I could keep my huge sword-swinging Hawke where I believe he should be: Right in the middle of the action, with blood all over him and asking for more.

Modifié par JulianoV, 02 mars 2011 - 12:49 .

[Zhel_Ryn]

JulianoV wrote...
*snip

Somewhere back in the Dev posts in this thread, Peter mentioned a DA:O Reaver ability had become a passive. I'm taking a gander that it would be the Corpse sucking fun times.

That is an issue with Turn the Tide, though 1 talent/20% stamina for 10% defense isn't too bad imo. +20 fort for 1 talent either, though you could theoretically just take Aegis and Resilience for 100% knockback resistance too. So many choices! *drool*

[Zhel_Ryn]

m14567: That's quite similar to what Sabre is looking to do with his Vanguard playstyle. If you haven't been yet, it's a good read on party builds surrounding a high damage, no pause THW game.