1724 réponses à ce sujet

[Graunt]

jomonoe wrote...

Hmm... I'm beginning to think that Bravery isn't that great for a dps 2 hander. I was trying it out in the demo and found it difficult to find large packs of enemies that took full advantage of the talent. Of course, it's just a demo. Also, Bravery loses it's potency if you are fighting just one or two very tough enemies. Maybe investing in Vanguard to get Massacre would be a better idea. Making the last 1/5th of an enemies health completely null is pretty amazing, I think.

Exactly.  It wouldn't be bad if it were only a one point investment, but it's not, and for it to truly shine you need the upgrade to it as well.  Reaver/Berserker may have skills that while not exactly the same, offer a similar boost yet also have prerequisites that actually help with damage.  

Massacre looks like it would be very good for Very Hard/Nightmare, but I wouldn't even be playing a two-handed Warrior for Nightmare unless it was the tank.  Even then, it still seems like it would be great for an SnS Warrior too.

Modifié par Graunt, 04 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[godlike13]

Does the passive bonuses in Elemental Mastery, Galvanism, and Spirit Mastery effect corresponding staff's damage like Pyromancer?

Modifié par godlike13, 04 mars 2011 - 07:31 .

[0rz0]

Almost required to go vanguard if you plan on 2h dps.That's where the damage is.

[themageguy]

shame we dont get any nature damage spells for mage hawke. Mind u from what ive read seems merrill will cover that no problem.
Still i do miss stinging swarm.....

[Graunt]

0rz0 wrote...

Almost required to go vanguard if you plan on 2h dps.That's where the damage is.

Only seeing four "mandatory" Vanguard talents, but then where else would you go outside of the two-handed tree and Berserker/Reaver/Templar?  Everything else is utility, support or tank based.

[Adhin]

On Bravery, I found it really easy to get 4-5 enemies with in 10m of my 2H warrior in the demo. To get an idea of how big 10m is, try out the base fireball and put you in the middle of it. It's pretty solid distance. Don't have to even be 'on' you just have to be in the area. And it is a good chunk of dmg, crit and Attack your looking at.

Though It definitely benefits a DPS build thats going to be taking damage too. So its more 'pure DPS' and more 'DPS Tank' setup. It potentially has the most DPS increase as a base 'keep it on' kind of skill. just 3 targets and its matching most sustained, more then that and it starts to really shine. I mean Might at base, 10% dmg, its upgrades is only 25% Crit damage. If you don't have a high crit chance, that doesn't really do much.

So, yeah, 2 points into Bravery and 3 guys your already besting Might's bonuses, add 4+ guys and you surpass it. I personally think thats well worth it honestly. But it definitely is more useful if you plan to grab there attention.

Modifié par Adhin, 04 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[Graunt]

Adhin wrote...

On Bravery, I found it really easy to get 4-5 enemies with in 10m of my 2H warrior in the demo. To get an idea of how big 10m is, try out the base fireball and put you in the middle of it. It's pretty solid distance. Don't have to even be 'on' you just have to be in the area. And it is a good chunk of dmg, crit and Attack your looking at.

Though It definitely benefits a DPS build thats going to be taking damage too. So its more 'pure DPS' and more 'DPS Tank' setup. It potentially has the most DPS increase as a base 'keep it on' kind of skill. just 3 targets and its matching most sustained, more then that and it starts to really shine. I mean Might at base, 10% dmg, its upgrades is only 25% Crit damage. If you don't have a high crit chance, that doesn't really do much.

So, yeah, 2 points into Bravery and 3 guys your already besting Might's bonuses, add 4+ guys and you surpass it. I personally think thats well worth it honestly. But it definitely is more useful if you plan to grab there attention.

You'll have 100% crit on Whirlwind with the upgrade (and possibly other combat auras from other members), plus Barvery is worthless against bosses that don't have at least two adds on you the entire time.  

The reason to put points into the two auras from Vengeance anyway are for Cleave.  For a "pure DPS" build, Bravery may not be worth it since you'll probably get more returns from the specializations.  Having to dump three points into Warmonger just for a situational ability doesn't seem that appealing.  Sometimes it would be really great, and other times practically useless.  It really boils down to how good specializations are and just how often through the whole game you can easily surround yourself with 4+ enemies.

Modifié par Graunt, 04 mars 2011 - 01:26 .

[0rz0]

To upgrade whirlwind you'll need to learn almost the whole 2h tree however.

[Adhin]

And its a single move, AoE around you with 100% crit chance is awesome for a 1 shot ordeal but it's not exactly an all time thing. And not something I'd want to be spamming in an extended wave fight. And how easy it is to do 3 or more? Every fight that's not a boss and then, even some bosses. That's majority of the game.

But yeah I'd turn it off for a boss fight who doesn't have any major add's as it would be kinda pointless at that point. I wasn't saying that in a 'don't go vanguard' kind of way, just that its more useful then might in 90% of the games situations.

Plus the stuff you get in Warmonger is nice, I plan to basically upgrade Pommel strike, and fully upgrade Bravery. But im building my Warrior to be a DPS-Tank, mixed roll. Going Bersker->Reaver too. I basically only have 10 things bought up, nothing in Vanguard. Leaves me 10-15 points of wiggle room for the 2 specializations.

Upgraded Pommel Strike (Pommel Blow) is a good combo starter for Chain lightning. Hit a guy with it, Merrill Chains, probably auto-kill that target and then cause some havoc amongst his buddies. Definitely a great opener for an Elite target in a pack. Least that's my current line of thinking with Warmonger.

As for Bravery upgrade, Bravura (the one that does 5% dmg per add to initial target) it only requires 3 in Warmonger. You start with Pummel, have to get Taunt, which means once you buy Bravery you 'already' have the requirements at there most basic. So it's an easy upgrade really.

[Graunt]

0rz0 wrote...

To upgrade whirlwind you'll need to learn almost the whole 2h tree however.

Which is what you would be doing anyway if you were a "DPS" Warrior...

But yeah I'd turn it off for a boss fight who doesn't have any major
add's as it would be kinda pointless at that point. I wasn't saying that
in a 'don't go vanguard' kind of way, just that its more useful then
might in 90% of the games situations.

Might is 10% damage for 20% stamina, it's 10% always.  Bravery is 30% stamina for situational increases, saying it's "90% more useful" is not accurate, especially when you factor in stamina costs for abilities (and abilities that we don't even know about from the specializations).

Might also costs 1 point, Bravery costs 2 to reach, one of which is mostly useless and it doesn't even really get good until the 3rd point.  Until you get Bravura all you get is +chance to hit (which is useless on most trash if you're going STR anyway) and 3% crit.

Modifié par Graunt, 04 mars 2011 - 04:33 .

[Ultimecia]

Vanguard only has one talent you don't want: Destroyer (and even then it's not bad).
- Control cause you need Cleave
- Might cause it increases damage and crits (Muscle)
- Assail will let you take on adds with no damage taken (knockbacks)
- Cleave will let you one-shot lieutenants
- Claymore will let you stunlock bosses (Petrify Scythe, Winter's Grasp Mighty Blow)
- Massacre will effectively cut mob's HP by 20% so adds are dealt with faster

Don't see any optionals here for an optimal 2hander

Modifié par Ultimecia, 04 mars 2011 - 04:45 .

[Sabresandiego]

Im not a fan on bravery either, because I dont like my boosts to be dependant on being sorrounded by more than 1 opponent. I do have to make the comment though that the changes which they made to strength recently made bravery a much better talent. Even if you invest 3 points in strength every level, your attack % is nowhere near 100%. The attack % bonuses of bravery are now very useful.

[Adhin]

The whole buff is useful but it definitely is a 'risk-reward' setup. I think the Webs name says it all, Warmonger. It's all about being a battle hog. You ****** everyone off, you feed off people trying to kill you. I think in a play style where your 2H warrior is the primary tank and group damage dealer (like I'm setting up) Bravery is freakin' sweet.

I'm going to have everything on me to begin with, may as well skyrocket that DMG up there. Every 3% crit, at base 50% dmg bonus is basically 1.5% dmg boost over the course of 10 hits. That's 6.5% dmg boost (1.5 of which is the 3% crit). Overall that kinda thing is going to make downing groups very efficient.

Not like im trying to say Might or Vanguard tree is crap, I like that tree. I'm just trying to get across how useful Warmonger is in general. You go into a big fight and Bravery will basically max out your Attack chance, and give your dmg/crit a rather good boost. The whole things made of win in a good chunk of the game.

Vanguard is very static, which is good, you always do the same regardless of the situation. With out thinking about specializations, 2H, Vanguard, and enough to get Bravery+Bravura I think would make for some crazy damage outputs. Imagine getting a group together, putting on Cleave/Bravery then Mighty Blowing said elite/boss in a pack. Kinda makes me wonder what combo that one QA guy did to max out Vanguard and 1 shot a minor Boss.

Modifié par Adhin, 04 mars 2011 - 08:48 .

[jomonoe]

Adhin wrote...

Vanguard is very static, which is good, you always do the same regardless of the situation. With out thinking about specializations, 2H, Vanguard, and enough to get Bravery+Bravura I think would make for some crazy damage outputs. Imagine getting a group together, putting on Cleave/Bravery then Mighty Blowing said elite/boss in a pack. Kinda makes me wonder what combo that one QA guy did to max out Vanguard and 1 shot a minor Boss.

HHHHNNNNNNNGGGG. Oh man, the damage. I guess getting bravery and bravura will be completely dependent on how good Berserk and Reaver are, for me. Also, do you have a link to your tank DPS two hander? I've been trying to figure out how to make a 2 hander survivable as the main tank. Thanks!

Oh also, a question to anyone, which do you think is better in the Vanguard tree; upgraded Might or Control? Not sure which one is better, having better crits or critting more often. Sunder seems to add a flat 10% crit chance which is great so after getting Sunder, I'm not sure on investing in increasing the damage of each crit or adding another 10% crit chance and having 20% crit chance.

Modifié par jomonoe, 05 mars 2011 - 02:04 .

[Adhin]

First off to your question on upgrading Might vs Controle. The real question ultimately in that is Crit damage (25%) vs Critical Hit Chance (10%). This is something I tried to point out with Bravery base feature. But at its base Critical hits do +50% dmg. That means every 1% of Critical hit is basically 0.5% dmg boost over 10 hits (on avg). So at base 10% crit chance is like 5% dmg.

25% 'Critical Damage' is a bit trickerier as your base critical chance is 0, literally whatever the hell you have in Dex. But lets say your going into the 2H Tree and have 10% base Crit. Instead of 0.5% its now 0.75% dmg increase per crit with an upgraded Might, putting that 5% to a 7.5%. So... whats that mean? You'd basically need 20% base Crit chance to get 'Muscles' 25% to equal out to the same as a base +10% crit chance boost would do.

So Comparing Upgrade to Upgrade, Controles is better at a base but that's not taking into account cross-tree combo stuff like having a 100% crit chance with Whirlwind. Might+Muscle would ultimately make that far more effective then some Attack and Crit chance. At the same time, 10% Crit chance, with Sunder puts you at 20% base and 50% chance to Stagger on Crit so... I guess I'd say Might at base is more useful for damage output, but Controles upgrade is more benefitical in more situations.

As to my current build I have it basically writen up to lvl 10, the rest is all going to be for Reaver/Berserk. Unless I find I don't want half the abilities in that. Also Turn the Blade (or Elemental Aegist) Adamant (Aegis upgrade) basically going to heavily depend on what Berserk/Reaver have available. If I can find comparible things I'll drop them in a heartbeat for the specialization stuff.

Kurn Hawke - Warrior / Berserker / Reaver
1: Pommel Strike - A
2: Stonewall - A
3: Taunt - A
4: Pommel Blow - P
5: Turn the Blade - S (or Elemental Aegist)
6: Bravery - S
7: Bulwark - P
8: Adamant - P (or Elemental Shroud)
9: Bravura - U
10: Bravado - U

Now tanking is kinda a base feature of Warriors, its really all about your Armor in the end. All the talents in the world wont save you if your Armor rating is only 20%. So getting Armor rating as close to the max as possible is important regardless of your build. Stat wise I need 42 STR just to equip some of the better weapons (for damage output) so I plan to go 2 STR, 1 CON up to 15 (41str) then switch it over to all Con (excepte 16 where I put 1 point into str). Listed that out in a post page back or so, basically should give me solid HP and let me equip the best armor/weapons.

Strategy wise, Stonewall/Bulwark is going to be a big part of that. Fully upgraded its 5 seconds of what amounts to total immunity (100% Damage Resistance). So using that in certain situations should go a long way for ones survivability. Bravery is there to allow my damage to skyrocket in big groups making it easier to kill them quickly. Upgraded Pummel Strike is there to allow for some cross class combos with Merrill.

I'm going to set her up to do 3 basic things to aid Hawke. 1 for survivability Arcane Barrier -> Arcane Fortress, this ability is basically like Stonewall but it lasts 6 seconds instead of 5, downside is it has a longer cooldown. But that's ok, having her be able to do that (since she can't heal) will go a long ways to keeping my tank alive. Add to that his ability to stonewall and...yeah.

2nd is basically 1 of the 2 CCC I want to take advantage of, Crushing Prison -> Paralyzing Prison. If a target is staggered (aka, upgraded Pummel strike), Paralyzing Prison causes 200% dmg (x2 its already high physical damage) and paralyzes for its 10 second duration. That's going to be an Elite or higher AI Tactic for her. If there is an elite+ that I've staggered 1st thing she'll do is throw that spell on them. Crush there health and CC them for 10 seconds allowing for, hopefully, easier time crushing them.

3rd is basically the 2nd CCC thing, Chain Lightning -> Chain Reaction. Same kinda thing as above but it'll be for anything. Normal+ mobs, if I stagger one she'll chain lightning it doing 600% damage! to that target and then arc out to up to 4 more.

So yeah for my self it'll be a lot of Pommel Strikes (pretty cheap and easy to use thing) on higher rank targets to try and stun them. If they get stunned, they'll auto get staggered which sets Merrill up for some heavy hurting. I'll have Bravery and taunt to keep things close, between stonewall and Barrier that'll increase my survivability. And then, of course, whatever the hell I can get outa Reaver and Berserker. I know Devour is back with Reaver, so there should be some kinda self-heal going on in that somehow. Hoping Berserk still has HP regeneration somewhere, sadly that stuffs up in the air atm.

Modifié par Adhin, 05 mars 2011 - 02:53 .

[Graunt]

Adhin wrote...
So at base 10% crit chance is like 5% dmg.

That would only be true if you had a 100% chance to hit, although I'm still a little confused on how this works, because I thought they said you "always hit" in this game, there's just glancing blows.  Unless they were only talking about always hitting with special abilities and that auto attacks are what require ATTK.

In any event, you would want +ATTK auras up on bosses and +CRIT chance on trash.  Having at least one Mage with Valiant Aura up doesn't hurt either.  Your Warrior would have a 20% crit base before Control/Might are activated.  It will probably be pretty easy to hit right around 35% crit without putting anything into DEX.  I would be shocked if Berserker doesn't have something that enhances crit chance.

Modifié par Graunt, 05 mars 2011 - 03:06 .

[Graunt]

distinguetraces wrote...

Peter Thomas wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Yeah, I wish Hard still had 50% friendly fire.

If I was asked to implement it, that isn't how it would be done. Half of way too much damage is still way too much.

I don't understand what this means. Are you referring to the way glancing blows scale up as difficulty drops?

He's just saying that Friendly Fire at 50% doesn't seem to matter because the damage your characters are doing is insane, more than enough to kill any ally in a single hit, and that cutting it in half wouldn't really change that much.

[Adhin]

and the crit vs crit dmg doesn't matter as 100% hit chance. Though that is based off only attacks that do count as 'hits' (aka, full dmg and can crit). Can't crit on a glancing blow, I mean...wtf would that be? Regardless of how often you hit the dmg boost ultimately is about the same. And thats all my point was is that straight 10% crit chance is more easily calculable and ultimately, more useful in more situations.

Also I'd rather have 10% dmg via might for groups then 10% crit chance. Crit chance is purely random, its effect on your overall DPS is calculated in the long term not the immediate. So a fully upgraded controle, ultimately, would be more useful for bosses with the bonus to attack and crit chance (as you'll be hitting them a lot more often). Might would be better on killing off groups as a constant quick damage, to me, would be more beneficial. Either way I stand by what I said, 10% crit is at its base more useful then 25% crit damage. As crit damage 'requires' you have a good chunk of crit chance to fully shine and 10% crit already has base 50% dmg to work off of.

[jomonoe]

Cool, thanks for the break down Adhin. Yours is the first build I saw that doesn't heavily invest in a weapon web right off the bat and it seems to be a good way to go. I'm definitely going to include Stonewall and maybe Bulwark now.

[Atmosfear3]

IMO upgraded Control and upgrade Might are both equally useful. For taking on groups of normal mobs, control with command upgrade is most useful, giving you enough burst to take down the mooks faster. Once you are on the boss and have better uptime for your attacks, Might with Muscle upgrade becomes more useful, especially if you apply Death Hex for the 100% crit.

[Rocambole4]

Adhin wrote...
...
Also I'd rather have 10% dmg via might for groups then 10% crit chance. Crit chance is purely random, its effect on your overall DPS is calculated in the long term not the immediate. So a fully upgraded controle, ultimately, would be more useful for bosses with the bonus to attack and crit chance (as you'll be hitting them a lot more often). Might would be better on killing off groups as a constant quick damage, to me, would be more beneficial. Either way I stand by what I said, 10% crit is at its base more useful then 25% crit damage. As crit damage 'requires' you have a good chunk of crit chance to fully shine and 10% crit already has base 50% dmg to work off of.

I disagree here. At least partially.

The fact that 10% crit is less reliable than 10% base damage is true. Crit, however, can give you damage spikes, and damage spikes are good (you can, for instance, down a healer before he ends casting something). Also, some stuff in the game is triggered by crits (like Sunder). That doesn't allow us to use simple math to see how much damage will that crit create (if it crits and nothing happens, it's just a crit. If it crits, proc Sunder and you chain lightning the target, it will be responsible to a huge damage multiplier).

IMHO, crit rating is importand to DPS while straight DPS increase is better for tanks (you cannot rely on crits to build aggro consistently).

Also, about the 2nd part (10% crit vs 25% crit damage), it really depends on what the crit rating is before this bonus. Is you have 10% crit chance, of course 10% crit chance is better (it will double your chance to crit, crits do 50% more damage, so you'll do 110% of the damage on average. With 10% crit and 175% dmg, it would be 107,5%. It quickly changes tough. If you have 50% crit chance, you'll do 125% damage. At 60%, 130%. At 50%, but with +25% crit damage, 137,5%. So, if you have 50% crit chance, the bonus to damage is better, considering only the sustained damage matters.

Of course, it all depends on building your group wisely too. If you're planning to use Hex of Death all the time, crit becomes much less on an issue, and DPS increase is a must - you'll crit much harder after all  

[Adhin]

I'm not 100% sure where we are disagreeing you basically just restated everything I said. My point was at base, Might (10% dmg) is better then +10% attack on Control. The 'upgrade' 10% crit on control is better (at base) then Might's 25%. Ultimately I'd prefer to use Might as there's way to spike your critical strike chance via Bravery and Sunder. Only 2 ways you have besides Control, but you can't use Control and Might at the same time so that's a bit pointless to think about.

Spike damage 'can' be good. It's only good if you can get your crit chance pretty far up there though. With out bravery thats nearly impossible for a Warrior with out going heavy into Dex. Rogue's, for instance are built for it, they already have to go a ton of dex to use stuff (42 for high end daggers probably). And high Cunning for locking picking and armor and all that so...there literally setup for it, Plus they have a passive that lets them chain 10 hits up for +20% crit. There's no excuse for a rogue not to be going around with 30+ base and spiking into the 50-60's.

A Warrior though? Not really, doing that would require a lot of dex, which means **** armor. Which means your no longer able to survive much. So Sunder gets you 10% base, Bravery can stack up 3% per target and, as an example in the demo, last fight with Isabela you can get 7 guys all in a group at the start. That's 18% crit chance early on added to is. Round that up, 30% pretty solid. Ultimately that just supports me saying Might is your best option though heh.

Toss out something extra here to show my point. Peter showed back awhile that the general balance for normal mobs is a 2H warrior can kill them in 4.2 hits. That means 5 hits, or 4 hits 1-2 being a crit. If they have (for simple math reasons) 420 HP and you do 100 DMG. With Might on your doing 110 base dmg, thats 440 dmg in 4 hits. So just turning that on basically means mooks go down in 4 hits instead of 5, completely bowling over the idea of needing a crit to, hopefully, kill 1-2 in a pack in 4 hits instead of 5. ALL of them would die in 4 hits.

That's the kinda point ive been trying to get across anyways. 10% dmg is generally always more useful then a few crit, even for heavy Crit based classes. When each Crit can be directly related into a certain % of dmg, once you get a certain bulk of % (say 30-50) a few extra crit wont make as much a difference as 10% anyways. 10% will always be there, always doing that 10%.

Course in most RPG's that 10% dmg would also effect critical strike dmg, but I think DA2 (unless Peter says otherwise) is literally just a chance to do +50% more dmg, instead of 150% of your dmg after everything else has been figured.

[Atmosfear3]

Boss fight with boss + 6 normal minions

Aveline picks up boss
2H Hawke picks up the minions with Bravery and Control w/ Command. Assuming we have sunder, thats 20% crit before any gear.
Minions are down, Hawke gets on the boss and turns on Might w/ Muscle [Off: bravery, control to free up stamina for specials]

Burst is much better when you need to kill something quickly. While minions are not particularly tough, they can be a nuisance and given free reign, can do quite a bit of damage if left uncheck. Once you are on a boss and have greater DPS uptime, Might + death hex from any mage will give your warrior increased DPS as well as burst for the duration of the hex.

[jomonoe]

Both Muscle and Command look to be quite potent in their own ways and in their own times. I was thinking that figuring out which one is definitively better would mean saving a point in Vanguard but now I think that upgrading both of them might not be too bad of an idea. Turn on Command with Bravery for solid crit chance against mobs and turn on Muscle for guaranteed crit attacks like upgraded Whirlwind. I want more points, dang it, haha. Now I am quite curious to see what kind of damage 2 handed warriors can dish out by combining Vanguard, Berserker, and Reaver.