31 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaewaros]

In a nutshell: Baldur's Gate was the one game that made me a neurotic optimizer.

After learning the games rules and battle mechanics, I have never made a single- or a multiclass fighter with less than 18/00 strength. Usually I favor a fighter/thief since they make the best fighters in BG1 (without Tutu). I reroll my characters stats a billion times to get the maximum benefit in the character creation. I also can't find the willpower to take any of the less "effective" NPC's to my party, constantly building it from the same few individuals - usually  Minsk (and Bo), Khalid, Coran, Viconia and Edwin. Sometimes I even end up letting some of my party members (Jaheira, Dynaheir) die on purpose so that I can remove them from the party without their close friends leaving the party with them.

These sick, neurotic symptoms usually stay within the Forgotten Realms, since I don't really care about character optimisation when playing, for instance, a game from the Ultima or the Elder Scrolls series. So is there some strange, twisted element to Baldur's Gate series that makes a regular, peace loving person like myself, wanting to go out and slaughter Drizzt The Drow just to get his neat blades? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Shaewaros, 18 février 2011 - 11:56 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Maybe it's the difficulty (in your first playthrough) that taught you to take every advantage you can get. By now you should be able to get through even with a suboptimal team though, so why don't you force yourself for once? Make a plan which characters to take along and play one of the weaker builds (or at least with non-perfect primary attributes).

[Shaewaros]

You are right, once one learns BG's rules it's not really that hard to survive even with a slightly less optimized party. Yet somehow once I begin the character creation, I can't stand making a "flawed" character, one that isn't optimal. This is probably due to the fact that you stated - the steep learning curve and the harsh difficulty. I still vaguely remember the first time I tried plaing BG1 - I couldn't even get to the Friendly Arm Inn without dying numerous times.

I have been planning on creating a party consisting only of "little folk" - hobbits, gnomes and dwarves. This would certainly make the game a lot harder. The unfortunate part is that in BG2 there are no hobbit, gnome or dwarf females to romance and it would feel kind of awkward to romance Jaheira as a hobbit PC.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I started going easy on the attributes once I started to characterize my PCs, for example the nimble but frail Kensei build (str 13, dex 19, con 8) was interesting, if not very healthy.

[Shaewaros]

Role-playing games should always be purely about role-playing one's character and making realistic decision based on the characters personality. I usually try to follow this guideline when playing an rpg like Morrowind. However in Baldur's Gate I always end up creating those optimized stat-monsters with no personality. Maybe I should go see a therapist or something? 

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Okay, then force yourself to accept the first roll you get, no changing of attributes at all.

[Morbidest]

Whatever happened to Frabjous's autoroller tool, which alllowed you to benefit from thousands of rolls in just a few minutes, instead of a few hours? If you're an addicted optimizer, that seems to be the easiest way to go.

Die hard optimizers can avoid feeling guilty by assuming that it's the PC's semi-divine destiny which drives you to make him/her perfect. Manifest Destiny and all that sort of thing. As Jaheira says in BG2 (in the worst pun in the whole saga): "Your fate even makes the Shark Gods flounder".  

[Grond0]

Shaewaros wrote...
I have been planning on creating a party consisting only of "little folk" - hobbits, gnomes and dwarves. This would certainly make the game a lot harder. The unfortunate part is that in BG2 there are no hobbit, gnome or dwarf females to romance and it would feel kind of awkward to romance Jaheira as a hobbit PC.

Sounds like you want the Mazzy romance mod.  I've not tried it myself, but it's sitting on Spellhold Studios if you're interested.

[Shaewaros]

Grond0 wrote...

Shaewaros wrote...
I have been planning on creating a party consisting only of "little folk" - hobbits, gnomes and dwarves. This would certainly make the game a lot harder. The unfortunate part is that in BG2 there are no hobbit, gnome or dwarf females to romance and it would feel kind of awkward to romance Jaheira as a hobbit PC.

Sounds like you want the Mazzy romance mod.  I've not tried it myself, but it's sitting on Spellhold Studios if you're interested.

Mazzy's romance is still in progress according to Spellhold Studios's mod page.

Morbidest wrote...

Whatever happened to Frabjous's
autoroller tool, which alllowed you to benefit from thousands of rolls
in just a few minutes, instead of a few hours? If you're an addicted
optimizer, that seems to be the easiest way to go.

Die hard
optimizers can avoid feeling guilty by assuming that it's the PC's
semi-divine destiny which drives you to make him/her perfect. Manifest
Destiny and all that sort of thing. As Jaheira says in BG2 (in the
worst pun in the whole saga): "Your fate even makes the Shark Gods
flounder". ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png 

Frabjous's autoroller? Interesting... I haven't tried that before but maybe I will in the future. On the other hand there is something therapeutic about rerolling the stats for ages - makes you feel like you have done something to earn your fine stats, kind of like giving birth to a child. Wow, that sounded pretty nerdy. :happy:

Yea, you could say that being a child of Bhaal is an excellent excuse to make your character a super-human killing machine. Man, what was I thinking? That my character would be a mere mortal? How childish of me.  Maybe I don't have to go to see a shrink after all.

Modifié par Shaewaros, 18 février 2011 - 09:26 .

[Morbidest]

Shaewaros wrote...

I have been planning on creating a party consisting only of "little folk" - hobbits, gnomes and dwarves. This would certainly make the game a lot harder. The unfortunate part is that in BG2 there are no hobbit, gnome or dwarf females to romance and it would feel kind of awkward to romance Jaheira as a hobbit PC.

You might be pleasantly surprised to find that - except on the magic side - it's not harder at all. "little folk" superior saves make the initial going a lot easier and Mazzy is a better fighter than Minsc, and on a par with Keldorn and Korgan. Having Mazzy in the group gives you an excuse to keep Valygar around for her sake, and even Korgan has a wee crush on her. A halfing cleric might be interesting.

Modifié par Morbidest, 18 février 2011 - 09:44 .

[Shaewaros]

Morbidest wrote...

Shaewaros wrote...

I have been planning on creating a party consisting only of "little folk" - hobbits, gnomes and dwarves. This would certainly make the game a lot harder. The unfortunate part is that in BG2 there are no hobbit, gnome or dwarf females to romance and it would feel kind of awkward to romance Jaheira as a hobbit PC.

You might be pleasantly surprised to find that - except on the magic side - it's not harder at all. "little folk" superior saves make the initial going a lot easier and Mazzy is a better fighter than Minsc, and on a par with Keldorn and Korgan. Having Mazzy in the group gives you an excuse to keep Valygar around for her sake, and even Korgan has a wee crush on her.

Keeping Valygar for Mazzy's sake? Nooo, that's against rules. I don't actually feel Mazzy to be a better fighter than Minsk - yea, she has a better thaco but her weapons aren't as good as Minsk's. Lil folk have better saving throws, I agree, but they don't necessarily have as large impact in most of the fights as superior spells and weaponry do. For instance, Mazzy is practically useless against golems with her primary weapon skills. However Mazzy is an excellent tank with superb AC and saving throws. And she's a pretty good archer as well.

Modifié par Shaewaros, 18 février 2011 - 09:52 .

[Morbidest]

I used to feel the same way about Mazzy, but I tried her once, developed her as a Crom Fayr user (went back and checked), and she became just a little bit less deadly than Sarevok in ToB.

Modifié par Morbidest, 18 février 2011 - 09:53 .

[Shaewaros]

Yea, maybe she could be great in the long run but personally I like to optimize my party specifically for SoA. Actually I usually don't even care to play ToB through since it's pretty linear compared to SoA and there are not nearly as many interesting side quests.

[Morbidest]

I agree with you about ToB; finish it about half the time.
Just for the hades of it I looked at a save towards the end of Suldanessellar and compared my 3 fighter types:
                          Str       Dex       Const        Thaco           AC           Aver. Save throw    #attacks
PC(Kensai)    20        18          18               -16               0                      0                          5
Mazzy(C.F.)     25        18          16              -13               -10                   1                          2.5
Jaheira           19        17           17              -1                 -10                   4                          2.5

Mazzy had just killed the Black Dragon. Obviously we all use the NPCs we think are the most fun, but with the right hammer she's quite a gal.   

[Shaewaros]

LOL, I think a certain +5 warhammer might be the reason for her being so successful.

[Kaeloree]

Hey guys,



Just letting you know that while the Mazzy Romance forum is still up, it's unfortunately been cancelled. In the next forum overhaul it will be moved to a new inactive mods section. Sorry!

[Shaewaros]

Kaeloree wrote...

Hey guys,

Just letting you know that while the Mazzy Romance forum is still up, it's unfortunately been cancelled. In the next forum overhaul it will be moved to a new inactive mods section. Sorry!

That's really a shame, I would have loved to try it out. What is it with all romance mods being made exclusively for the big people? Why can't we have a humble hobbit perspective for once?

[Bhryaen]

Kaeloree wrote...
Hey guys,

Just letting you know that while the Mazzy Romance forum is still up, it's unfortunately been cancelled. In the next forum overhaul it will be moved to a new inactive mods section. Sorry!

I think this is great- not the news, but that there are relatively official sorts from the modder community who actually bother to read our ridiculous discussions and pipe in to settle issues this way. Clearly modders are still just a different segment of the fan base...

But as to the OP's original point I always feel guilty about the massive rerolling thingy. Even if it gives a sense that, "Hey, I earned these high rolls, didn't I?"... it really still just comes down to powergaming. My only resort is a recent development- based on NWN experiences- whereby I won't lower any stat below 8 and will try to keep all at 10 or higher. Of course, this still drives me to reroll massively, and I still tend to optimize the key attributes, but then the general character doesn't have absurd 3's in WIS and/ or CHA. A genuinely roleplayed WIS 3 char... wouldn't last long...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 20 février 2011 - 12:52 .

[Shaewaros]

Bhryaen wrote...

Kaeloree wrote...
Hey guys,

Just letting you know that while the Mazzy Romance forum is still up, it's unfortunately been cancelled. In the next forum overhaul it will be moved to a new inactive mods section. Sorry!

I think this is great- not the news, but that there are relatively official sorts from the modder community who actually bother to read our ridiculous discussions and pipe in to settle issues this way. Clearly modders are still just a different segment of the fan base...

But as to the OP's original point I always feel guilty about the massive rerolling thingy. Even if it gives a sense that, "Hey, I earned these high rolls, didn't I?"... it really still just comes down to powergaming. My only resort is a recent development- based on NWN experiences- whereby I won't lower any stat below 8 and will try to keep all at 10 or higher. Of course, this still drives me to reroll massively, and I still tend to optimize the key attributes, but then the general character doesn't have absurd 3's in WIS and/ or CHA. A genuinely roleplayed WIS 3 char... wouldn't last long...

You are not alone, brother, we all here have felt the same guilt you are feeling.

I've actually never played BG 1 or BG 2 with a character that had CHA, INT or WIS lower than 8-10, even though they aren't useful to most character classes. I always try to create some kind of image of my character in my mind while playing the game and I haven't been able to associate myself with the image of a drooling sociopath that can barely speak. I mean who wants to associate himself with someone like that?

I've actually wondered how that charisma boosting ring in BG 2, that raises charisma to 18 once worn, would work in real life? I mean If you give it to someone who looks and acts like  Tor Johnson, how does it turn him into Brad Pitt in a blink of an eye? I know it's supposed to be magic but there has to be some limit to what a simple spell can do...

I've always loved the way NPCs in Fallout 2 respond to dumb PC - the game is actually really fun to play as a dumb character just to see all the funny dialogue that the developers have created specially for a dumb PC. There is actually a Let's Play in youtube of Fallout 2 played with dumb PC, if you haven't seen it you should definitely check it out.

[HolyAvenger]

I must be one of those weird people who doesn't compulsively optimize and has never felt the need to. I always choose my party and choices based on RP reasons, and I tend to stick to reasonable rather than min/maxed stats- I like RP'ing fairly smart characters so I'll stick to at least median values for Int and Wis, even for fighter or paladins.

[Bhryaen]

Shaewaros wrote...
I've actually never played BG 1 or BG 2 with a character that had CHA, INT or WIS lower than 8-10...

Alas, I have fairly regularly ever since after my first character. I wanted that STR 18/00, and it comes so rarely that it might show up with a smaller stack of overall points, so the only way to also have DEX 18/19, CON 18/19 is to lower INT and/or WIS and/or CHA to 3... so I have. It's only recently that I've picked up BG again that it just doesn't feel right. For sure a stupid, blathering, and/or utterly antisocial individual could never realistically make it through BG's storyline. The enemy is supposedly a brilliant, cunning mastermind who can also play politics and win the hearts of the ladies, not just a fellow dolt who keeps messing things up! We're not just picking up after a slob... So actually on roleplaying terms STR, DEX, and CON are the most sacrificeable attributes... But I'm still guilty as charged...

I've actually wondered how that charisma boosting ring in BG 2, that raises charisma to 18 once worn, would work in real life? I mean If you give it to someone who looks and acts like  Tor Johnson, how does it turn him into Brad Pitt in a blink of an eye? I know it's supposed to be magic but there has to be some limit to what a simple spell can do...

This interpretation of CHA has always bugged me. Clearly looks have an impact but charisma is not about winning a Miss Multiverse contest. It's about being sociable and persuasive. A chubby bard might lose a few CHA points for his self-indulgence, but if his voice is strong, his wit sharp, and his art true, he should do at least as well as or better than a veritable Brad Pitt. Charisma involves the impact you have on others due to how you come across in personality and in social skills. The CHA score isn't offered up by Miss Multiverse judges: sexy contestant, "And I like tennis, and I go for walks, and crossword puzzles really stump me sometimes;" judge, "Yeah, but look at those legs! Give her a CHA 18!" That just doesn't seem to be how CHA works in my opinion. It's a matter of how likeable- even lovable- rather than how physically attractive they are. I'd say a Brad Bitt (or Angelina Jolie for that matter) is about as good looking as most actors out there, but he's also a fairly good actor who can stay in character well and has demonstrated an ability to play more complex roles, so it's the depth that adds the charisma, not primarily the looks. It's worth noting that most people don't respect a fashion model. Would you quote one? "Well, for flab I just do tummy crunches twice a day..." Uh huh...

What a magically-boosted CHA should do, however, I don't know. A high CHA should reflect a personable individual, so putting such a ring on a normally antisocial CHA 6 individual would entail a roleplayed personality change. Theoretically a poor, unconvincing speaker who no one wished to endure before would suddenly be able to sell oceanfront property in the middle of a desert.

I've always loved the way NPCs in Fallout 2 respond to dumb PC - the game is actually really fun to play as a dumb character just to see all the funny dialogue that the developers have created specially for a dumb PC. There is actually a Let's Play in youtube of Fallout 2 played with dumb PC, if you haven't seen it you should definitely check it out.

I've played dumb characters with NWN, and the dialogue changes there too, and some of it is amusing, but it's a novelty that wears thin fairly soon. Still, I might check out that YouTube thingy for the fun of it.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 21 février 2011 - 02:21 .

[Grond0]

Bhryaen wrote...
This interpretation of CHA has always bugged me. What a magically-boosted CHA should do, however, I don't know. A high CHA should reflect a personable individual, so putting such a ring on a normally antisocial CHA 6 individual would entail a roleplayed personality change.

How about treating it as a magic ring that affects others rather than yourself - something like a poor man's charm person without a saving throw?  It is thus not the character's behaviour that changes, but others' perception of it.  Did you ever listen to someone in the pub and think what a great guy they were and then wonder why in the cold (and hungover) light of day?  The ring might similarly distort people's perceptions to put the most favourable possible gloss on what was being said and done.

[Bhryaen]

Grond0 wrote...
How about treating it as a magic ring that affects others rather than yourself - something like a poor man's charm person without a saving throw?  It is thus not the character's behaviour that changes, but others' perception of it.  Did you ever listen to someone in the pub and think what a great guy they were and then wonder why in the cold (and hungover) light of day?  The ring might similarly distort people's perceptions to put the most favourable possible gloss on what was being said and done.

Yes, this is quite right. There has to be a distinction between the natural charm that comes from a high-CHA character vs magical charm from, well, magic. The one requires actual persuasive skill while the latter bypasses any need for such skill- like Gauntlets of Ogre STR giving the strength without the weight training. Maybe I shouldn't have used the "charmed NPCs don't go hostile" component since now it makes sense: they'll have a migraine after! (Must keep aspirin equipped...)

[Shaewaros]

Grond0 wrote...

Bhryaen wrote...
This interpretation of CHA has always bugged me. What a magically-boosted CHA should do, however, I don't know. A high CHA should reflect a personable individual, so putting such a ring on a normally antisocial CHA 6 individual would entail a roleplayed personality change.

How about treating it as a magic ring that affects others rather than yourself - something like a poor man's charm person without a saving throw?  It is thus not the character's behaviour that changes, but others' perception of it.  Did you ever listen to someone in the pub and think what a great guy they were and then wonder why in the cold (and hungover) light of day?  The ring might similarly distort people's perceptions to put the most favourable possible gloss on what was being said and done.

This is indeed the only reasonable explanation, although people should still be able to have a saving throw against it. I mean it's not really a poor man's charm person if it doesn't even allow a saving throw - it's a pretty darn wealthy man's charm person.

I agree on Bhryaen's view on CHA - it should be more about personality than looks and that's precisely what I was after in the first place (like I said "looks and ACTS").

Modifié par Shaewaros, 21 février 2011 - 06:28 .

[Cowboy_christo]

Wasnt there a mod that change the cha ring to giving you +5-6 or something? It alwyas made more sense to me. It doesnt completely destroy charisma as a stat. Is usefull for high charisma character and less for low charisma character.



But the true thing id make it do would be to make it give you the friend spell buff when worn.