169 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The DAO system could never surprise the player, since he always knew what the content of the option he'd chosen was.

One of these days Sylvius is going to throw a "to me" or even an "in my experience" into these absolute declarative statements of implied objectivity and I'm going to have to pick my jaw up off the floor.

Aaanyway, on topic I do expect that DA2's system will on average be a more effective implementation of the paraphrase/dialogue system than we've yet seen in either Mass Effect game, if only due to the absence of the inherently limiting Paragon/Renegade dichotomy.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 février 2011 - 11:45 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The DAO system could never surprise the player, since he always knew what the content of the option he'd chosen was.

One of these days Sylvius is going to throw a "to me" or even an "in my experience" into these absolute declarative statements of implied objectivity and I'm going to have to pick my jaw up off the floor.

That wouldn't be necessary here, as I'm making an irrefutable claim.  The content of the PC's line is contained entirely within the text of that line, and the text was there for the player to read.

If you think that there's some other aspect of the game which was lacking, that's another issue.  I don't dispute that the DA2 system might even fill those needs better than the DAO system does, but I insist that the DA2 system is only an improvement on the DAO system if it loses nothing of what the DAO system offers.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That wouldn't be necessary here, as I'm making an irrefutable claim. 

It's only irrefutable if you've deemed the numerous counterarguments presented from time to time as baseless, unreasonable, and false.  Even if we accept, hypothetically, that you are the ultimate arbiter of what constitutes "content" in terms of cRPG dialogue, I'm not sure what could possibly give you that authority.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The content of the PC's line is contained entirely within the text of that line, and the text was there for the player to read.

If you think that there's some other aspect of the game which was lacking, that's another issue.  I don't dispute that the DA2 system might even fill those needs better than the DAO system does, but I insist that the DA2 system is only an improvement on the DAO system if it loses nothing of what the DAO system offers.

Oh we're both familiar with each other's argument.  You say DAO offers X.  I say the paraphrase/voiced setup offers Y.  You see no value in Y, and I feel that X is suboptimal bordering on useless without Y.  If forced to choose between just X and just Y, I pick Y, you pick X.   And around and around we go.

And just to fill in the blanks for anyone following along:
X is the full line.
Y is tone, inflection and intent.

Personally though I don't think comparisons to DAO on this subject are terribly useful, and think discussing the DA2 system as an improvement upon Mass Effect is the better angle.  But I'm no ultimate arbiter of what cosntitutes dialogue in cRPGs either.

[lv12medic]

Maybe the diamond means a hard or sharp (or harsh) response. Not necessarily mean or anything, but sort of a telling people to harden up and get moving.



I'm going off the idea that diamond is the hardest natural occurring substance.



I'm just weird like that.

[Riloux]

It's a little ironic how the conversation wheel is supposed to make things clearer, but it seems to be doing the opposite.



I wish they gave us an option to disable paraphrasing, or even better, voiced Hawke.

[upsettingshorts]

Riloux wrote...

It's a little ironic how the conversation wheel is supposed to make things clearer, but it seems to be doing the opposite.

It makes things clearer and more enjoyable for some, less clear and less enjoyable for others.  Just like DAO's system, with different people raising their hands in favor of either.

Riloux wrote...

I wish they gave us an option to disable paraphrasing, or even better, voiced Hawke.

Of course ultimately a toggle between both systems would appeal to the most people, but I imagine that falls squarely in the "easier asked for than accomplished" category of options.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 février 2011 - 12:04 .

[Dhiro]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

That wouldn't be necessary here, as I'm making an irrefutable claim. 

It's only irrefutable if you've deemed the numerous counterarguments presented from time to time as baseless, unreasonable, and false.  Even if we accept, hypothetically, that you are the ultimate arbiter of what constitutes "content" in terms of cRPG dialogue, I'm not sure what could possibly give you that authority.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The content of the PC's line is contained entirely within the text of that line, and the text was there for the player to read.

If you think that there's some other aspect of the game which was lacking, that's another issue.  I don't dispute that the DA2 system might even fill those needs better than the DAO system does, but I insist that the DA2 system is only an improvement on the DAO system if it loses nothing of what the DAO system offers.

Oh we're both familiar with each other's argument.  You say DAO offers X.  I say the paraphrase/voiced setup offers Y.  You see no value in Y, and I feel that X is suboptimal bordering on useless without Y.  If forced to choose between just X and just Y, I pick Y, you pick X.   And around and around we go.

And just to fill in the blanks for anyone following along:
X is the full line.
Y is tone, inflection and intent.

Personally though I don't think comparisons to DAO on this subject are terribly useful, and think discussing the DA2 system as an improvement upon Mass Effect is the better angle.  But I'm no ultimate arbiter of what cosntitutes dialogue in cRPGs either.

It's like watching the two of you having sex.

[upsettingshorts]

Dhiro wrote...

It's like watching the two of you having sex.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 février 2011 - 12:07 .

[mesmerizedish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

It's like watching the two of you having sex.

Hawt.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's only irrefutable if you've deemed the numerous counterarguments presented from time to time as baseless, unreasonable, and false.  Even if we accept, hypothetically, that you are the ultimate arbiter of what constitutes "content" in terms of cRPG dialogue, I'm not sure what could possibly give you that authority.

The content is the stuff that's there.

There isn't any tone there, since we can't see it and it's never mentioned by the game.  There isn't any inflection.  And the intent, in DAO or DA2, isn't knowable to BioWare, so it can't possibly be in the game.

Oh we're both familiar with each other's argument.  You say DAO offers X.  I say the paraphrase/voiced setup offers Y.  You see no value in Y, and I feel that X is suboptimal bordering on useless without Y.  If forced to choose between just X and just Y, I pick Y, you pick X.   And around and around we go.

And just to fill in the blanks for anyone following along:
X is the full line.
Y is tone, inflection and intent.

Personally though I don't think comparisons to DAO on this subject are terribly useful, and think discussing the DA2 system as an improvement upon Mass Effect is the better angle.  But I'm no ultimate arbiter of what cosntitutes dialogue in cRPGs either.

Let's say I at a pizza last week, and I really liked it.  This week, you offer me something else, which you call a pizza, and insist that it's better.  But I look at it, and all I see is a plate filled with mud.

What you're saying here is that the mud is better because it's better than a plate filled with just dry soil.  And while I don't dispute that the mud is better than dry soil, it's still nowhere near as good, nor even vaguely similar to, the pizza I had.

Mass Effect was terrible.  I have never seen a worse dialogue system.

DAO's dialogue system allowed the player to know what the literal meaning of his character's remarks would be.  That's what I want from DA2.  That, I think, is a pretty low standard too, as it's one BioWare has met time and time again.  Failure to meet that standard is equivalent to total failure.

I have no objection to the game offering you greater understanding of tone, intent, or inflection.  I'm not saying DA2 shouldn't give you those things.  I'm saying that DA2 should give me the things that DAO, KotOR, JE, and BG did.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Of course ultimately a toggle between both systems would appeal to the most people, but I imagine that falls squarely in the "easier asked for than accomplished" category of options.

There needs to be a way to capure the benefits of one without losing the benefits of the other.

[upsettingshorts]

Ignoring your previous post as I really have no desire to rehash previous discussions again (short version: Swap "mud" and "pizza" between games, there's my POV!), because they accomplish nothing and we just arrive back at similar posts where - in some way - one of us reminds the other we exist in threads like these.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There needs to be a way to capure the benefits of one without losing the benefits of the other.

There is a way, it's called an "unlimited budget."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 février 2011 - 12:18 .

[Dhiro]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dhiro wrote...

It's like watching the two of you having sex.

[Naitaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ignoring your previous post as I really have no desire to rehash previous discussions again (short version: Swap "mud" and "pizza" between games, there's my POV!), because they accomplish nothing and we just arrive back at similar posts where - in some way - one of us reminds the other we exist in threads like these.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There needs to be a way to capure the benefits of one without losing the benefits of the other.

There is a way, it's called an "unlimited budget."

No it's called less paraphrasing or no paraphrasing with intent icon...

[upsettingshorts]

Naitaka wrote...

 no paraphrasing with intent icon...

I would hate that.  It would introduce repetition to the experience of the voiced protagonist, something I do not want.  It annoys me just as much as "OMG I DIDN'T WANT HIM TO SAY THAT" annoys people about the paraphrase.  I do not want to hear a character say what I already just read aloud in my head.  

Hence the unlimited budgets/toggle "solution."  I don't believe there's a realistic "please everyone" answer to this issue.  Only choices with pros and cons.

Also what does "less paraphrasing" mean, in terms of how it would be executed? You mean a more detailed and verbose summary?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 février 2011 - 12:44 .

[mesmerizedish]

Naitaka wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ignoring your previous post as I really have no desire to rehash previous discussions again (short version: Swap "mud" and "pizza" between games, there's my POV!), because they accomplish nothing and we just arrive back at similar posts where - in some way - one of us reminds the other we exist in threads like these.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

There needs to be a way to capure the benefits of one without losing the benefits of the other.

There is a way, it's called an "unlimited budget."

No it's called less paraphrasing or no paraphrasing with intent icon...

Well, it could be called "select exactly what the character will say instead of a paraphrase," but I think that's clunky and unnecessary. Sylvius disagress... Sylvius, I think, will never be happy

[The Lesser Evil]

Diamond icon = hard reaction. How did that even stretch itself out to four pages of discussion?

Well, Sylvius's persistent "Paraphrasing is bad!" helped, but still.

[Newnation]

JobacNoor wrote...

Bobad wrote...

This response is diamonds?.

Look at your sister's corpse.
Now back to me.
Now back at her corpse.
Now back to me.

Sadly, your sister isn't alive like I am. But if she used Old Spice scented body wash she could smell like me.

Look down.
Back up.
Her corpse is now diamonds. I'm on a nug.

This post was just so full of win.

[Naitaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

*snip

Also what does "less paraphrasing" mean, in terms of how it would be executed? You mean a more detailed and verbose summary?

Yes that's what I mean, although it probably will take up too much space with the wheel system. They can always go back to list form with intent icon I guess? 

Regardless, I'm more or less in Sylvius's camp on this one. DA:O fills that role of a story driven (Not a sandbox like the Elder Scroll serie) game with a more traditional take on role-playing that I'm comfortable with. The market is already filled with game with cinematic experience in FPS/TPS, not to mention Mass Effect games fills this same role for me as well.

[Insomniak]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The DAO system could never surprise the player, since he always knew what the content of the option he'd chosen was.

One of these days Sylvius is going to throw a "to me" or even an "in my experience" into these absolute declarative statements of implied objectivity and I'm going to have to pick my jaw up off the floor.

That wouldn't be necessary here, as I'm making an irrefutable claim.  The content of the PC's line is contained entirely within the text of that line, and the text was there for the player to read.

If you think that there's some other aspect of the game which was lacking, that's another issue.  I don't dispute that the DA2 system might even fill those needs better than the DAO system does, but I insist that the DA2 system is only an improvement on the DAO system if it loses nothing of what the DAO system offers.

Well, not to refute your supposedly "irrefutable claim" but, in my experience, the context of the lines in DAO were not always clear to me. I will admit (to my shame) that I was one of the few people that got ninja'manced by Zevran because I didn't really understand that what I was saying was actually flirtatious as opposed to diplomatic/polite. Then again, I'm socially awkward and struggle with picking up on those sorts of cues - or maybe I'm just dense... take your pick.

In cases like this, I think icons that indicate intent would be beneficial...

Modifié par javajedi217, 19 février 2011 - 01:12 .

[JrayM16]

javajedi217 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The DAO system could never surprise the player, since he always knew what the content of the option he'd chosen was.

One of these days Sylvius is going to throw a "to me" or even an "in my experience" into these absolute declarative statements of implied objectivity and I'm going to have to pick my jaw up off the floor.

That wouldn't be necessary here, as I'm making an irrefutable claim.  The content of the PC's line is contained entirely within the text of that line, and the text was there for the player to read.

If you think that there's some other aspect of the game which was lacking, that's another issue.  I don't dispute that the DA2 system might even fill those needs better than the DAO system does, but I insist that the DA2 system is only an improvement on the DAO system if it loses nothing of what the DAO system offers.

Well, not to refute your supposedly "irrefutable claim" but, in my experience, the context of the lines in DAO were not always clear to me. I will admit (to my shame) that I was one of the few people that got ninja'manced by Zevran because I didn't really understand that what I was saying was actually flirtatious as opposed to diplomatic/polite. Then again, I'm socially awkward and struggle with picking up on those cues - or I'm just dense... take your pick.

OK, I've seen this road before.  Many people have started a debate with Sylvius as to the nature of tone in dialogue before, myself included.  It will derail the thread.  I suggest all involved turn back now.

Edit:  Never mind, it's already too late. 

Modifié par JrayM16, 19 février 2011 - 01:13 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I do not want to hear a character say what I already just read aloud in my head. 

Do you subvocalise when you read?  Maybe that's the difference.

[RosaAquafire]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I just read aloud

Upsettingshorts wrote...
in my head

hrm

Modifié par RosaAquafire, 19 février 2011 - 01:14 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

javajedi217 wrote...

Well, not to refute your supposedly "irrefutable claim" but, in my experience, the context of the lines in DAO were not always clear to me.

Then you weren't reading them well, as their content was entirely available to you.  The words were there for you to read.  There can be no debate about that.

I will admit (to my shame) that I was one of the few people that got ninja'manced by Zevran because I didn't really understand that what I was saying was actually flirtatious as opposed to diplomatic/polite.

That, I think, is a different problem.  There your character acted without your input.  You chose what he said, and he said that.  That part worked well.  The next bit - where the romance happened - that was the problem.

The dialogue system worked fine.  Trying to have the dialogue system be something it isn't is where the problem arises.

Then again, I'm socially awkward and struggle with picking up on those sorts of cues

The cures weren't there to be picked up.  This is my core complaint with the paraphrase system in the first place.  Not enough information is being made available to the player.

That the problem arose even in DAO should have been enough to warn BioWare off from making it worse by adding the paraphrase system.