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[Evil Johnny 666]

InvaderErl wrote...

Gleym wrote...

I love all the panic that's going on now that a lot of the complaints from unhappy ME1 fans (who were dismissed as a minority) are being repeated by game websites. 'Cause, y'know, god forbid that the complaints might actually be considered valid and not dismissible as 'whiny nitpicking'.

Oh yes, a editor from KOTAKU didn't like Mass Effect, ITS ALL OVER FOLKS! You heard it from Gleym, ME2 is universally hated now! Nevermind that its won or come in 2nd on every public poll during the GOTY session, nevermind its broken the record for GOTY records recieved, nevermind its been praised critically in too many places to count. A single editor on Kotaku made a dig!

Never heard of the Blade Runner case? A movie that originally almost flopped, got crushed by an almost every critic out there, and then YEARS after, having survived because of the advent of VCRs and the die-hard fans, seen the light of day again, with now almost every critic out there citing the movie as ONE OF THE BEST MOVIES EVER MADE? But... but... how is this possible, "division by zero... no response..." :explodes:

Plus, I present to you logical fallacy, something that would highly penalize you in an analytic essay.

Guys, don't you realize those are not valid arguments? If you want to prove something is good, you need to SHOW WHY, not say some other known dude says it's good, that's worthless.

[InvaderErl]

Except my point was to the public reception of ME2 not to its quality (which is subjective), if I had said ME2 is a GREAT GAME BECAUSE of those things, you would be in the right - but I did not, hence your post is irrelevant.

Rather my post was in response to Gleym's assertion that

Gleym wrote...

I love all the panic that's
going on now that a lot of the complaints from unhappy ME1 fans (who
were dismissed as a minority) are being repeated by game websites.

As some kind of mark that critical opinion is turning against the game when given the last two months and the very visible response from not just critical sources but regular gamers as well, its ludicrous to somehow proclaim this ONE dig as a cause for the other half of the debate to "panic".

Modifié par InvaderErl, 18 février 2011 - 10:58 .

[Gatt9]

InvaderErl wrote...

Gleym wrote...

I love all the panic that's going on now that a lot of the complaints from unhappy ME1 fans (who were dismissed as a minority) are being repeated by game websites. 'Cause, y'know, god forbid that the complaints might actually be considered valid and not dismissible as 'whiny nitpicking'.

ITS ALL OVER FOLKS! You heard it from Gleym, ME2 is universally hated now! Nevermind that its won or come in 2nd on every public poll during the GOTY session, nevermind its recieved a staggering number of GOTY awards, nevermind its been praised critically and by the mainstream in too many places to count. A single editor on Kotaku made a dig! That completely proves that ME2 is the WOST GAME EVAR.

Please.

Edit:

Reading through the comments page you may have jumped the gun in proclaiming his some kind of brother in arms

StephenTotilo

@Theoutlet
Fri 18 Feb 2011 12:49 PM

"I like Mass Effect, too! Though navigating through the Normandy could still use some streamlining."

Curious isn't it?  Red Dead Redemption,  Bioshock 2,  Starcraft 2,  Grand Turismo 5,  but the best game of a the year is an RPG that had all of it's RPG elements stripped out,  and it's gameplay changed to Gears of War with *really* bad AI,  and possess a below average level of writing.

Now would probably be a good time to start investigating the growing body of evidence that the gaming press is corrupt.  Honestly,  at this point,  it's blatant.

Edit:

Except my point was to the public reception of ME2 not to its quality (which is subjective). 

Some sites use an "Algorithm" to "Make user reviews less susceptible to manipuation",  which does nothing more than prune the low scores out.  Some sites have been caught skewing reviews for advertisers.  Some sites have released the "Rules for previews" that you're required to follow or be blacklisted.

You're making the assumption that there's no manipulation going on,  it's really obvious that is not the case today.

Modifié par Gatt9, 18 février 2011 - 11:00 .

[InvaderErl]

And there was a more lucrative horse to back if EA really wanted to rack up GOTY awards in some attempt to boost sales (specifically Battlefield).

As for the rest of your post your making up speculation that suits you. I didn't like that Red Dead swept the Gamespot awards but I didn't suspect that they were "Brought off!" simply because it disagreed with my personal opinion which is a rather immature approach to take.

If you want a look at what I suspect was the decision process for a lot of sites this is as good a place as any. http://www.giantbomb...?podcast_id=205 specifically the second half at the one hour mark when they get into discussions of ME2.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 18 février 2011 - 11:05 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

InvaderErl wrote...

Except my point was to the public reception of ME2 not to its quality (which is subjective), if I had said ME2 is a GREAT GAME BECAUSE of those things, you would be in the right - but I did not, hence your post is irrelevant.

Rather my post was in response to Gleym's assertion that

Gleym wrote...

I love all the panic that's
going on now that a lot of the complaints from unhappy ME1 fans (who
were dismissed as a minority) are being repeated by game websites.

As some kind of mark that critical opinion is turning against the game when given the last two months and the very visible response from not just critical sources but regular gamers as well, its ludicrous to somehow proclaim this ONE dig as a cause for the other half of the debate to "panic".

Then I think you're overreacting. He's not saying that there's a particularly big shift in the critics' view on the game, nor does he says it's going to happen, only that he finds it funny that a lot of people react so much to Kotaku showing a bit of criticism. Which I agree.

But it's not only saying that a game if good because of the scores that is a fallacy, but using it in an argument at all. Just using the fact that ME2 got very good scores or good reception to support your claims, rather than use it as an argument in itself is a fallacy. It's like, you don't try to defend a point and then get all, see, ALL those other people agree with me. It's as worthless as saying the game is good because of the reception, it doesn't mean anything.

[InvaderErl]

Except my claim is that it got a good reception in which case it is totally valid to draw on that information as that is the very argument itself. I cannot use objective information to make a subjective statement but I can certainly use objective information to make an objective statement.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue ME2 was not well received and has continued to be well received (hence its successes during the recent GOTY season) which was the statement I was making.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 18 février 2011 - 11:15 .

[MJRick]

Gatt9 wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's called an opinion. You may have heard of it.

That one isn't opinion,  it's fact.  They stripped pretty much every RPG component out of ME2 and replaced it with Gears of War. 

Dude take it away

[Evil Johnny 666]

InvaderErl wrote...

Except my claim is that it got a good reception in which case it is totally valid as that is the very argument itself. I cannot use objective information to make a subjective statement but I can certainly use objective information to make an objective statement.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue ME2 was not well recieved and has continued to be well recieved (hence its successes during the recent GOTY season) which was the very statement I was making.

I get it, I was just talking over a particular thing you said (the because thing).

[Goofy McCoy]

IN A WORLD OF WAIST HIGH WALLS, ONE MAN WILL TEAM UP WITH A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION TO RESOLVE THE "DADDY ISSUES" OF ALL HIS CLOSEST FRIENDS.



There are plenty of ways to cut down ME2, but when it comes down to it, it was successful, it was fun, and I think the majority of people who played it will be waiting for part 3.



Still, one can always hope that BW will change course back towards what we "wanted" mass effect to be.

[Sentox6]

Gatt9 wrote...
Curious isn't it?  Red Dead Redemption,  Bioshock 2,  Starcraft 2,  Grand Turismo 5,  but the best game of a the year is an RPG that had all of it's RPG elements stripped out,  and it's gameplay changed to Gears of War with *really* bad AI,  and possess a below average level of writing.

Meh. The main plot was poorly written, but the character writing was certainly not "below average".

As for your list, well... GT5 wasn't nearly as good as it should have been, given the insane amount of development time. RDR is chronically overrated (just like GTA4, unsurprisingly). Bioshock 2 and Starcraft 2 are both good games, but neither of them do anything fantastic. ME2 is just more of an experience, which I suspect is why it garnered so many awards.

Goofy McCoy wrote...

IN A WORLD OF WAIST HIGH WALLS, ONE  MAN WILL TEAM UP WITH A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION TO RESOLVE THE "DADDY ISSUES" OF ALL HIS CLOSEST FRIENDS.

Bwahaha. They should put that on the GOTY box.

Modifié par Sentox6, 18 février 2011 - 11:24 .

[Thompson family]

I started out writing a long post on all the "deep" games I've played and am playing, but it sounded a lot like bragging.



I'll stick to just one example: Rise of Flight, the game I'm playing now. It's a World War I flight sim so detailed, diving at even a moderate speed in some aircraft will cause your propeller to spin too fast as it goes through the air, causing your engine to rev to fast, destroying your engine.



The aircraft are underpowered, frail and temperamental. It is an extremely demanding game. I've played and will play other games that are much more of the "deep" strategy and role-playing kind, including Oblivion, Morrowind, Knights of the Old Republic and so forth. KOTOR probably ranks among my top five of all time, and I've been playing games since the 1980s.



The insistence of old school RPGrs in using terms like "dumbed down" in their open, merciless scorn of other game players, frankly, has caused me to lose a great deal of respect for their point of view.

[InvaderErl]

If they ever want to know how it feels they should take a jaunt over to the StarCraft forums, RTS snobs look down on the RPG snobs and FPS snobs with equal disdain.

[Stardusk78]

ME2 story is very interesting; characters are OK...Mordin is the best...action is of course why we love it. But remember it is a bridging story....ME3 will by default have MUCH more RPG elements....

[Mr. MannlyMan]

InvaderErl wrote...

Except my claim is that it got a good reception in which case it is totally valid to draw on that information as that is the very argument itself. I cannot use objective information to make a subjective statement but I can certainly use objective information to make an objective statement.

I don't think anyone can seriously argue ME2 was not well received and has continued to be well received (hence its successes during the recent GOTY season) which was the statement I was making.

Except Gleym wasn't arguing that ME2 wasn't well recieved; he was just pointing out that some of the complaints that fans have posted here about ME2 are not just nitpicks by a small forum minority, but are valid criticisms being made by media sources (many of which have also posted VERY favorable reviews of the game).

InvaderErl wrote...

Gleym wrote...

I love
all the panic that's going on now that a lot of the complaints from
unhappy ME1 fans (who were dismissed as a minority) are being repeated
by game websites. 'Cause, y'know, god forbid that the complaints might
actually be considered valid and not dismissible as 'whiny
nitpicking'.

ITS ALL OVER FOLKS! You heard it from Gleym,
ME2 is universally hated now! Nevermind that its won or come in 2nd on
every public poll during the GOTY session, nevermind its recieved a
staggering number of GOTY awards, nevermind its been praised critically
and by the mainstream in too many places to count. A single editor on
Kotaku made a dig! That completely proves that ME2 is the WOST GAME
EVAR.

Not WORST GAME EVAR, and not "universally hated"... just valid criticisms being drawn out now that the sequel is announced and on its way.
The hyperbolic assessment by ME2 fans of these criticisms seems to be that they're being made by "idiots" or "haters" or "conservative anti-shooter gamers", which are just hate terms aimed at dismissing said criticisms.

Which is just sad, because it's obvious there's a large contingent of fans who felt disappointed with ME2 in some way.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

 It was not "dumbed down." It simply took out the annoying parts of an RPG and added in the good parts of a shooter.

[InvaderErl]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]
Except
Gleym wasn't arguing that ME2 wasn't well recieved; he was just pointing out that some of the complaints that fans have posted here about ME2 are not just nitpicks by a small forum minority,

To clarify,

This is specifically what caught my attention.

Gleym wrote...

 unhappy ME1 fans (who were dismissed as a minority)

Now I don't think complaints should be discounted because one group may or may not be in a minority and was not the focus of my post. However this group IS a minority which is what I was speaking to. Even the polls on this forum indicate a positive reaction to ME2.

Additionally his post makes it sound as if these complaints are showing up on websites all over as  some kind of new trend in critical response to ME2:

"that a lot of the complaints from unhappy ME1 fans are being repeated by game websites"

Again this sentence is not as you said SOME of the complaints which I would have read over and not given a second thought to but the tone of the post indicates this to be some kind of assertion about a shift in response to the game.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 18 février 2011 - 11:58 .

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

This discussion will never die, will it. *sigh*



I'm going to stop reading these forums until ME3 comes out.

[88mphSlayer]

Mass Effect 1's combat was already dumb



Mass Effect 2 just streamlined that dumbness into something more fun



now that they've streamlined the dumb into dumb fun, maybe they can add some complexity



but i don't see the point in fooling myself about what ME1's gameplay was

[Mr. MannlyMan]

InvaderErl wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie]
Except
Gleym wasn't arguing that ME2 wasn't well recieved; he was just
pointing out that some of the complaints that fans have posted here
about ME2 are not just nitpicks by a small forum minority,

To clarify,

This is specifically what caught my attention.

Gleym wrote...

I love all the panic that's going on now that a lot of the complaints from unhappy ME1 fans (who were dismissed as a minority) are being repeated by game websites.

His post, at least as I read it, was that he was inferring that this group was in fact not a minority. Now I don't think complaints should be discounted because one group may or may not be in a minority and was not the focus of my post. However this group IS a minority which is what I was addressing. Nothing more.

He meant that the complaints being made by "this group" were being dismissed on the basis that they belonged to a "minority" of ME2-hatin' fans, which is utter rubbish TBH.

Edit: Believe me, as much as I disagree with people who complain that ME2 had zero story and zero RPG elements, I also cannot understand how others interpret "I liked the variety in ME1 and the RPG elements" as "I want them to bring ME1's system back, flaws and all". For some reason, there is a LOT of misinterpretation on these boards.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 19 février 2011 - 12:13 .

[Frraksurred]

Denial is actually pretending that the clusterfuky and awkward systems in ME1 were "smart".

Also, as pointed out above:
"Streamlining", is nowhere near the same as "dumbing down"

Mmm, I think we have been down this road a little too many times.

I never said that all the systems in ME1 were "smart", there were obviously flaws.  What I do mean to say is that regardless of whether you refer to it as "dumbing down" or "streamlining", it was reduced in a way many would like to see at least a partial return too.  There are things I enjoy about ME1 and things I enjoy about ME2, and I would love to see a bit more balance in those areas.

As far as being down this road too many times, in that respect I agree with you 100%

[InvaderErl]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

He meant that the complaints being made by "this group" were being dismissed on the basis that they belonged to a "minority" of ME2-hatin' fans, which is utter rubbish TBH.

And if I had read your post I would have moved right on by but your post is worded much better than his.

Gleym wrote...

I love all the panic that's going on now that a lot of the complaints from unhappy ME1 fans (who were dismissed as a minority) are being repeated by game websites. 'Cause, y'know, god forbid that the complaints might actually be considered valid and not dismissible as 'whiny nitpicking'.

The subjective element of his post I've never touched on, whether the complaints are valid or not nor was I really interested in that part of the post.

My point now is, your post and his have different meanings as a result of a few key words, again yours is better worded.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 19 février 2011 - 12:15 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Eh, alright? Personally I try to ignore subjective or personal distortions in posts, which is probably something that more people should try to do more often.



I'm just sayin', there was nothing in his post that really warranted a big reaction. Arguing about that really ain't worth anyone's time, including yours.

[StowyMcStowstow]

annihilator27 wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's called an opinion. You may have heard of it.

That one isn't opinion,  it's fact.  They stripped pretty much every RPG component out of ME2 and replaced it with Gears of War. 

What? ME2 still has rpg elements. And it plays nothing like Gears.

Actually, it does. That whole cover based thing was done by Gears of War first, so hence "it plays like Gears." The whole shooting bit isn't really what people mean when they say it plays like Gears, the cover based system is. However, the cover based system has become so ubiquitous in shooters these days it doesn't really even matter.

[Chaos Gate]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Babli wrote...

Mass Effect 2 was NOT dumbed down!



I just love this picture

Not accurate.  "Streamlining", is nowhere near the same as "dumbing down".  About half the skills on the ME1 pic were useless, and each skill level provided negligible bonuses.  At least in ME2, every skill level felt like a real and honest upgrade and the differences between each skill level were significant.

Next time try not using blatant lies.

"Real and honest upgrades" in Mass Effect 2? Seriously?

Because all the investment of skill points in Mass Effect 2 got you was being able to swap between fire ammo or ice ammo. Wow. You didn't even have to do any upgrading if you didn't want to - the game's mechanics were so "streamlined" that you could complete the game without levelling up.

At least in ME1, there were plenty of skills to choose from, which added to depth to your character, and while the skill increases were small, by the time you had fully upgraded a particular skill, you really saw a difference.

Mass Effect 2 was definitely dumbed down. It was so dumbed down it made me cry.

[Evil Johnny 666]

^exactly. I'd love to see people try to take my arguments of the last page to argument up a bit. You just need to compare the right things to understand ME2 is dumbed down rather than simply streamlined.