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[88mphSlayer]

Chaos Gate wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Babli wrote...

Mass Effect 2 was NOT dumbed down!



I just love this picture

Not accurate.  "Streamlining", is nowhere near the same as "dumbing down".  About half the skills on the ME1 pic were useless, and each skill level provided negligible bonuses.  At least in ME2, every skill level felt like a real and honest upgrade and the differences between each skill level were significant.

Next time try not using blatant lies.

"Real and honest upgrades" in Mass Effect 2? Seriously?

Because all the investment of skill points in Mass Effect 2 got you was being able to swap between fire ammo or ice ammo. Wow. You didn't even have to do any upgrading if you didn't want to - the game's mechanics were so "streamlined" that you could complete the game without levelling up.

At least in ME1, there were plenty of skills to choose from, which added to depth to your character, and while the skill increases were small, by the time you had fully upgraded a particular skill, you really saw a difference.

Mass Effect 2 was definitely dumbed down. It was so dumbed down it made me cry.

when you see that stats screen you're mostly looking at redundancy when you consider that:
-they removed dice-roll from the combat in ME2, negating all of the "weapon upgrade skills", stuff like increased pistol accuracy or increased sniper accuracy mean nothing with no dice-roll
-they merged spectre/first aid with "unity" that requires no upgades
-they merged health/armor upgrades into armor itself instead of being a naked stat, negating stuff like soldier, fitness, or combat armor upgrading
-they created a new charm/intimidate system that depended on the personality of your character instead of simply being a learnable skill
-they also brought over ammo upgrades as an individual/squad ability, and gave each character something to benefit to the overall makeup of the squad instead of just being "take a tech person and biotic" or "tech and soldier" or etc. (having that many more characters meant sparsing out benefits)
-they made "mastery" something that can branch into 2 different skills, as it is there is only one possible mastery in ME1's stats
-they added additional biotic/tech powers, and gave the player the ability to retrain in any of the additional dozen or so biotic/tech or weapon skills

it's not really all that bad when you start thinking about where all of that stuff went, i think the only thing they really nerfed completely was squad armor upgrading which would be cool if they brought it back, also the shotgun in ME2 doesn't feel nearly as good to use, and it would be cool to upgrade the raw naked firepower of each weapon outside of stuff like inferno rounds (which already feels like cheating anyways)

[DRSH]

I like Gears of War.

[KiraTsukasa]

Storywise, I think ME2 was merely a way to bridge ME1 to ME3 and set up for the final chapter so no one can say "**** hit the fan for no reason". As for the skills and such, ME2 went in a different direction than ME1, which is a good thing, so BioWare can look at both and see what worked and what didn't and adjust to make ME3 the best of the trilogy.

[Thompson family]

Not WORST GAME EVAR, and not "universally hated"... just valid criticisms being drawn out now that the sequel is announced and on its way.
The hyperbolic assessment by ME2 fans of these criticisms seems to be that they're being made by "idiots" or "haters" or "conservative anti-shooter gamers", which are just hate terms aimed at dismissing said criticisms.

Which is just sad, because it's obvious there's a large contingent of fans who felt disappointed with ME2 in some way.

"Selling out"
"Dumbed Down"
"Over-simplified"
"What I saw was something that might stress a Mass Effect player, that might sail over their head. [sic] (Note: it's hard to maintain a pose of arrogance when you don't recognize "their" as a plural pronoun.)
"If what I saw in Dragon Age II was dumbed down then the game's still got a high IQ."
"It's for the old-school, for the kind of person in this world who knows keyboard shortcuts and has at least oncefixed a TV for a relative simply by properly using the machine's menus.
"That was dumb. Dragon Age II is not."

All those were direct quotes from the linked article.

"hate terms dismissing [valid] criticisms," indeed.

Modifié par Thompson family, 19 février 2011 - 01:46 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Gatt9 wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's called an opinion. You may have heard of it.

That one isn't opinion,  it's fact.  They stripped pretty much every RPG component out of ME2 and replaced it with Gears of War. 

HAHAHAHA

you obviously haven't played Gears of War... or Mass Effect 2 for that matter.

The only thing the same in both games is the cover system. But hell, that was in ME1 as well.

[Chaos Gate]

^ Sorry, but I disagree.

Whatever BioWare had intended for Mass Effect 2, by the time it was completed and released, it had become a Gears of War clone with a few extra characters. At least, that's how it felt to me.

And I've played both games, and I enjoyed Gears of War. I love hardcore shooters, especially those made by Epic, id Software and Raven. I just didn't want the latest iteration of Mass Effect to be in the same vein. Because while the franchise has shooty elements, it's definitely more than a shooter. That's the impression that I got while playing the first ME.

Just my opinion. I love your avatar, by the way. It's hot.

Modifié par Chaos Gate, 19 février 2011 - 01:56 .

[Lumikki]

Dragon Age II is RPG while MassEffect serie is hybrid. So looking situation like both games are pure RPG. Of course some RPG fans can see situation like that. Everyone can have they opinions...

[2papercuts]

Mesina2 wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's called an opinion. You may have heard of it.

That one isn't opinion,  it's fact.  They stripped pretty much every RPG component out of ME2 and replaced it with Gears of War. 

Mass Effect 2 is NOTHING like Gears of War.

i can't tell if your a troll or not

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Chaos Gate wrote...

^ Sorry, but I disagree.

Whatever BioWare had intended for Mass Effect 2, by the time it was completed and released, it had become a Gears of War clone with a few extra characters. At least, that's how it felt to me.

And I've played both games, and I enjoyed Gears of War. I love hardcore shooters, especially those made by Epic, id Software and Raven. I just didn't want the latest iteration of Mass Effect to be in the same vein. Because while the franchise has shooty elements, it's definitely more than a shooter. That's the impression that I got while playing the first ME.

Just my opinion. I love your avatar, by the way. It's hot.

It just annoys me b/c.... everyone uses it as a put down. I happen to love both games. One for multiplayer, one for story... but I still say the only thing the same in the two games is the tps cover system.

If it was a gears clone.... there wouldn't be any leveling at all, no choices to make, no missions but the main story, no exploring, etc. Oh and the characters would be bigger and have more muscles.

My avatar? Thanks! Ash is amazing... and definitely "hot" <3

[Il Divo]

I find it hilarious that some here are attempting to use skill screens to demonstrate why Mass Effect 2 was 'dumbed down'. Streamlined, yes. But one might think that choosing whichever gun had the largest number in your inventory and 1% pistol damage was advanced Calculus judging by some of the fan reactions here.

Instead of 9 useless ranks to a skill, we now have 3 useful ranks + one bonus. It is neither smarter or dumber than before, just less cluttered.

[Jaron Oberyn]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's called an opinion. You may have heard of it.

That one isn't opinion,  it's fact.  They stripped pretty much every RPG component out of ME2 and replaced it with Gears of War. 

HAHAHAHA

you obviously haven't played Gears of War... or Mass Effect 2 for that matter.

The only thing the same in both games is the cover system. But hell, that was in ME1 as well.

Sorry but Gatt's right. Besides, I find it ironic how ME is trying to be GoW in space, while GoW is trying to add RPG elements to it's third game. Sad sad... Apparently Cliffy B admitted that RPG's were the games of the future or something to that extent. 

-Polite

[Darkchipper07]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Chaos Gate wrote...

^ Sorry, but I disagree.

Whatever BioWare had intended for Mass Effect 2, by the time it was completed and released, it had become a Gears of War clone with a few extra characters. At least, that's how it felt to me.

And I've played both games, and I enjoyed Gears of War. I love hardcore shooters, especially those made by Epic, id Software and Raven. I just didn't want the latest iteration of Mass Effect to be in the same vein. Because while the franchise has shooty elements, it's definitely more than a shooter. That's the impression that I got while playing the first ME.

Just my opinion. I love your avatar, by the way. It's hot.

It just annoys me b/c.... everyone uses it as a put down. I happen to love both games. One for multiplayer, one for story... but I still say the only thing the same in the two games is the tps cover system.

If it was a gears clone.... there wouldn't be any leveling at all, no choices to make, no missions but the main story, no exploring, etc. Oh and the characters would be bigger and have more muscles.

My avatar? Thanks! Ash is amazing... and definitely "hot" <3

I think they are referring to the story also which in both cases was bad.

[_Somebody]

Il Divo wrote...

I find it hilarious that some here are attempting to use skill screens to demonstrate why Mass Effect 2 was 'dumbed down'. Streamlined, yes. But one might think that choosing whichever gun had the largest number in your inventory and 1% pistol damage was advanced Calculus judging by some of the fan reactions here.

Instead of 9 useless ranks to a skill, we now have 3 useful ranks + one bonus. It is neither smarter or dumber than before, just less cluttered.

I wish we still had a charm/intimidate skill class though. 

[Femlob]

We're taking Kotaku seriously now?

Must've missed that memo.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's called an opinion. You may have heard of it.

That one isn't opinion,  it's fact.  They stripped pretty much every RPG component out of ME2 and replaced it with Gears of War. 

HAHAHAHA

you obviously haven't played Gears of War... or Mass Effect 2 for that matter.

The only thing the same in both games is the cover system. But hell, that was in ME1 as well.

Sorry but Gatt's right. Besides, I find it ironic how ME is trying to be GoW in space, while GoW is trying to add RPG elements to it's third game. Sad sad... Apparently Cliffy B admitted that RPG's were the games of the future or something to that extent. 

-Polite

Have you even played them? 

The ONLY thing the same is the cover system... good grief. Gears of War 3 doesn't count as it isn't out yet!

[2papercuts]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Have you even played them? 

The ONLY thing the same is the cover system... good grief. Gears of War 3 doesn't count as it isn't out yet!

and the combat


ME3 just needs chainsaws really...

Modifié par 2papercuts, 19 février 2011 - 02:24 .

[Il Divo]

Somebody wrote...

I wish we still had a charm/intimidate skill class though. 

Make no mistake, I do too. That was one casualty. I simply don't see how that leads to dumbed down necessarily.

Modifié par Il Divo, 19 février 2011 - 02:22 .

[lazuli]

2papercuts wrote...

and the combat


ME3 just need chainsaws really...

...and active reloads, and executions, and using downed enemies as cover, and hobbling around waiting to bleed out, and annoying vehicles, and roadie running, and somersaulting off of cover, and moving from cover to cover with the push of a single button, and non-sniper weapons with scopes...

Let's not oversimplify.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

2papercuts wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Have you even played them? 

The ONLY thing the same is the cover system... good grief. Gears of War 3 doesn't count as it isn't out yet!

and the combat


ME3 just needs chainsaws really...

oh no... the combat was the same!!! IT'S A CLONE!!!! /sarcasm

Combat is very similar in every game that was meant to have good combat in it. Of course the combat is going to remind you of Gears of War b/c of ... wait for it..... THE COVER SYSTEM.

Even so, Gears has no dialogue choices, no story choices to speak of, no leveling, no exploration, everything I said earlier. It can't be a "clone" if everything isn't the same.

[Aumata]

Mass Effect 1 dumb down shooters.
Mass Effect 2 dumb down RPG's.
What going to happen for Mass Effect 3? o_O

I need to proof-read.

Modifié par Aumata, 19 février 2011 - 02:42 .

[patocerda]

You know, it almost seems that this guy envies ME or had a hard time with it, I mean, come on, he called us fools and un-willing to go on a full RPG.

Seriously?

[KiraTsukasa]

Il Divo wrote...

Somebody wrote...

I wish we still had a charm/intimidate skill class though. 

Make no mistake, I do too. That was one casualty. I simply don't see how that leads to dumbed down necessarily.

You do. Sort of. ME2 makes the Paragon and Renegade meters more than just a meter by putting the Charm skill into Paragon and the Intimidate skill into Renegade. In ME1 they basically did nothing except for give you a boost in ME2 if it was full on the character you imported. And they gave you a single quest at 75% full. Personally, I found it rather silly that you could play full Renegade and have all points in Charm and vice versa.

[Whatever42]

The charm/intimidate skill has no real place in the mass effect games. When putting points into a persuade skill at the expense of a combat skill then that persuade skill needs to provide alternate tactical options. In a significant number of encounters (rivalling the cost of the dedicate points), instead of killing everyone, I should have the ability to talk my way out of it. That provides real RPG alternatives.



In ME1, there were really none of those alternatives. The charm/intimidate for the most part just gave us a slightly better outcome to some sidequests. I can only think of really one circumstance where I could talk my way out of some combat, with the Apocolypse Now quest, and that hardly justified it.



If they weren't going to offer alternative paths for you to finesse your way through content in ME2 then right thing to do was to remove charm/intimidate as skills.

[CliffDiverBOA]

Both games were good. I don't really focus too much on the gameplay mechanics of the game as long as it dosen't mess up the pace of the game. While I do hope that alot of the features of Mass Effect that were left out in Mass Effect 2 come back in Mass Effect 3, I will not bash on Mass Effect 2 because it changed the way I play the game. As I like to say, "If you can't adapt to a change in the combat situation, you shouldn't have stepped off the chopper."