131 réponses à ce sujet

[Haverrun]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

The Chantry does FAR MORE than just hide away mages in towers.

Oh, you don't have to tell ME this.  I am very much aware of the fact that the Chantry is an institution of invasive culture hegemony and I've discussed on this forum more than once.  However, I try to keep in mind that the Chantry--the correct political entity--was just one version of the religion about Andraste and the Maker (the one an Orlesian emperor decided was correct) and that it's probably possible to have a less authoritarian version of it.

Why have a less authoritarian version of it? The Chantry is too weak. If it goes down the toilet even more, Thedas might as well make way for the Qun. Resistance is futile.

So.. Inflict mass suffering to introduce a new system of.... Suffering.. "Dont worry mages, we will get rid of these damn oppresors.. all you gotta do is have your tongue cut out, be leashed and put in a pen"

Historically, the Chantry was able to fight back the Qunari with the help of mages who played a large part in it. Isn't Tevinter between the Chantry nations and the Qunari? I believe that they're the border keeping the Qunari from launching an all-out invasion on the rest of Thedas.

[Riona45]

XxDeonxX wrote...
Not as many follow it yes. But it still has ALOT of followers. Countries would come to its defence it people tried to remove it. Isn't it like.. the biggest religion in the world still?

Most people on Earth don't follow it--most people on Earth aren't even Christian.

[Eveangaline]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Haverrun wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

The Chantry was not built solely to police magelings. All that's just a fairly minor sideshow. The teachings of Andraste form the backbone of civilization in all of Thedas.

Take away the current Chantry-based civilization in Thedas and you replace it with either the Qun as the new civilizing influence or total anarchy while a new civ establishes itself.

But the chantry doesn't run the kingdoms, the kings, queens, banorn, and nobles do. Even if the chantry falls apart, they'll still have government set up.

The Catholic Church doesn't have any political power, but you can bet there would be a major crapstorm if suddenly was removed from power.

The Catholic church does not currently have its own army or have major political influence with several large nations as the Chantry does. Considering that not as many people follow the Catholic church as they used to, the impact wouldn't be worldwide.

Not as many follow it yes. But it still has ALOT of followers. Countries would come to its defence it people tried to remove it. Isn't it like.. the biggest religion in the world still?

Do you mean all of christianity, or just catholics? Because if you just mean catholics, then no, if you mean all of christianity, then yes. But large segmants of christianity wouldn't care if the catholic church went down.

[Legbiter]

rabidhanar wrote...

In all seriousness the only thing that would happen would be either a return of the worship of the old gods or the creation of a new religion created to explain the world. Many civilizations have risen and fallen, all the gods and culture forgotten. New countries with new beliefs rise up and take the place of the old.

And that new civilization would still seek to heavily regulate mages. It could outright kill them even. The fact that the Chantry dosen't speaks rather well of them I think. The Templars and the Circles are just chrome over the fact that the Chantry civilization in Thedas dosen't necessarily want to stave in little Jimmy's head just because he shows signs of magic.

Hogwarts with a darker spin if you will.

[Eveangaline]

Legbiter wrote...

rabidhanar wrote...

In all seriousness the only thing that would happen would be either a return of the worship of the old gods or the creation of a new religion created to explain the world. Many civilizations have risen and fallen, all the gods and culture forgotten. New countries with new beliefs rise up and take the place of the old.

And that new civilization would still seek to heavily regulate mages. It could outright kill them even. The fact that the Chantry dosen't speaks rather well of them I think. The Templars and the Circles are just chrome over the fact that the Chantry civilization in Thedas dosen't necessarily want to stave in little Jimmy's head just because he shows signs of magic.

Hogwarts with a darker spin if you will.

Why do you assume they'd be worse about mages? After all, the dalish do fine with mages, places with hedge mages do fine. Not every culture vilifies them.

[Augustei]

Riona45 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
Not as many follow it yes. But it still has ALOT of followers. Countries would come to its defence it people tried to remove it. Isn't it like.. the biggest religion in the world still?

Most people on Earth don't follow it--most people on Earth aren't even Christian.

Theres a pretty big divide between the religions.. Most people is a general term.. They are pretty close to 50% though.. Its not like its only a small ammount of people are christians. It is the dominant belief in the world overall.. Followed very closely by The church of islam.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

On a practical level, I thought the approach the writers did was quite good. It does make sense that there would be some oppressive control scheme in place in a world that contains people who can throw balls of fire out their hands. Much of fantasy tends to hold to some idealistic tenents. One of the nice things about DA was it did that to a much lesser degree than norm.

Whether that's the Chantry or the Qunari practice of cutting their tongues out, it was one of many little things Bioware did to distinguish themselves from the normal generic fantasy setting where everyone but the big mean baddie is an incredibly responsible person who would never abuse their power.

I have no idea how the Dalish control their mages. In the relatively pragmatic world of Thedas, I very much doubt they controlled them by simply relying on the intrinsic goodness of the fellow elf though.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 19 février 2011 - 06:06 .

[Haverrun]

Anders said that templars only kill mages when they can prove that they are dangerous for the good of all. As he said himself mages are barely tolerated. That is the problem. I believe the Chantry doesn't kill them because the tranquil are useful for enchantments and that mages are useful for warfare. There could also be the fact that not all templars would necessarily take joy in butchering all mages men, women, and children.

[Augustei]

Eveangaline wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Haverrun wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Legbiter wrote...

The Chantry was not built solely to police magelings. All that's just a fairly minor sideshow. The teachings of Andraste form the backbone of civilization in all of Thedas.

Take away the current Chantry-based civilization in Thedas and you replace it with either the Qun as the new civilizing influence or total anarchy while a new civ establishes itself.

But the chantry doesn't run the kingdoms, the kings, queens, banorn, and nobles do. Even if the chantry falls apart, they'll still have government set up.

The Catholic Church doesn't have any political power, but you can bet there would be a major crapstorm if suddenly was removed from power.

The Catholic church does not currently have its own army or have major political influence with several large nations as the Chantry does. Considering that not as many people follow the Catholic church as they used to, the impact wouldn't be worldwide.

Not as many follow it yes. But it still has ALOT of followers. Countries would come to its defence it people tried to remove it. Isn't it like.. the biggest religion in the world still?

Do you mean all of christianity, or just catholics? Because if you just mean catholics, then no, if you mean all of christianity, then yes. But large segmants of christianity wouldn't care if the catholic church went down.

Christianity is the largest religion, and Catholics are the largest in number under Christiany.
PRetty vastly outnumbering all other forms of Christiany. 17% are Catholic.. 5.78% are prodestants

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 19 février 2011 - 06:07 .

[Riona45]

XxDeonxX wrote...
They are pretty close to 50% though..

More like 33%.

Its not like its only a small ammount of people are christians.

No, but that doesn't mean you aren't overstating things.

[Legbiter]

Eveangaline wrote...

Why do you assume they'd be worse about mages? After all, the dalish do fine with mages, places with hedge mages do fine. Not every culture vilifies them.

No. They're afflicted with just the same problems of abominations and magelings on a power trip as the rest of Thedas. They just suck up the losses, pick the pieces up and move on. 

[LobselVith8]

The RustMonster wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post, but I was talking about the ancient mighty empires. The Romans, the Byzantines, the Egyptians, etc. These cultures had a significant lack of magic.

Oh, you're correct as usual.  Hegemony, social upheaval, and war only existed in ancient times.

<_< Alright, since I apparently failed to relay my opinion clearly enough I'll just go ahead and say it again right now. If the Chantry is removed from power, anarchy would erupt because of the void in the political system and most likely would result in the total collapse of several empires in Thedas, most likely Orlais and Ferelden, the most devout Andrastian nations with the most Chantry power. Now, people have said that life will go on. The real world has provided numerous examples of fallen empires, and the world moved on and recovered from it. I mentioned that if the Chantry fell, we really couldn't predict the outcome based off of real world history, because those empires noticeably lacked the massively destructive power of magic. The mere existence of mages potentially makes the fall of an empire extremely more critical and dangerous than it ever was in history.

I think Ferelden can go on without it. Loghain and Maric contemplating dissolving the Chantry because of the occupation by Orlais they supported, after all. If the Chantry fell, life would go on, and if mages were responsible for tearing it down because of what's being done to them, it would be no different than when Andraste and Shartan emancipated their people from the clutches of the Tevinter Imperium.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post, but I was talking about the ancient mighty empires. The Romans, the Byzantines, the Egyptians, etc. These cultures had a significant lack of magic.

Oh, you're correct as usual.  Hegemony, social upheaval, and war only existed in ancient times.

<_< Alright, since I apparently failed to relay my opinion clearly enough I'll just go ahead and say it again right now. If the Chantry is removed from power, anarchy would erupt because of the void in the political system and most likely would result in the total collapse of several empires in Thedas, most likely Orlais and Ferelden, the most devout Andrastian nations with the most Chantry power. Now, people have said that life will go on. The real world has provided numerous examples of fallen empires, and the world moved on and recovered from it. I mentioned that if the Chantry fell, we really couldn't predict the outcome based off of real world history, because those empires noticeably lacked the massively destructive power of magic. The mere existence of mages potentially makes the fall of an empire extremely more critical and dangerous than it ever was in history.

I think Ferelden can go on without it. Loghain and Maric contemplating dissolving the Chantry because of the occupation by Orlais they supported, after all. If the Chantry fell, life would go on, and if mages were responsible for tearing it down because of what's being done to them, it would be no different than when Andraste and Shartan emancipated their people from the clutches of the Tevinter Imperium.

yes life would go on... eventually, after alot of bloodshed. It would be opposed in Ferelden as well and cause riots which would have to be put down harshly

They have deep roots and have alot of political influence.. Kings and Queens - especially in Ferelden are crowned by priests of the chantry after all

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 19 février 2011 - 06:11 .

[Haverrun]

With dalish clans and hedge mages as scattered as they are, I doubt they could afford to have many abominations running around. If they did, there should be a considerable amount of Dalish deaths and I don't think they would keep having mages as leaders of the clan if that were the case.

[Koffeegirl]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I'm under the impression that the Chantry is going one way or the other, if only because of A) Anders, and You or Bethany will be in the party as a Mage and that is a big deal. The major plot device is just HOW it will go. Will it burn down in flames or will the templars actually peacefully succumb and realize the Maker is a bunch of hogwash?

Time will tell.

You know I was thinking something similiar to this as well.  Because in all honesty, for DA3 it would be difficult ifor a story continuity wise I think.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

yes life would go on... eventually, after alot of bloodshed. It would be opposed in Ferelden as well and cause riots which would have to be put down harshly

They have deep roots and have alot of political influence.. Kings and Queens - especially in Ferelden are crowned by priests of the chantry after all

I can see how hard Orlais would be hit (but I don't think Ferelden would be hit as hard), but if we're talking about the emancipation of an entire group of people from their oppressors, then I think it's worth the deconstruction of the Chantry.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

yes life would go on... eventually, after alot of bloodshed. It would be opposed in Ferelden as well and cause riots which would have to be put down harshly

They have deep roots and have alot of political influence.. Kings and Queens - especially in Ferelden are crowned by priests of the chantry after all

I can see how hard Orlais would be hit (but I don't think Ferelden would be hit as hard), but if we're talking about the emancipation of an entire group of people from their oppressors, then I think it's worth the deconstruction of the Chantry.

Oh I agree, Orlais will be feeling the effects far more then anyone else. And although very debatable maybe the deaths of many thousands will have to be a necessity for future generations to learn from the mistakes and  Opression of a people. However it can also be said that currency could not be placed on a peoples life and Great evil should not be done to accomplish great good. However seemingly with the current situation. People are going to have to suffer one way or the other.

Ferelden would not be hit as hard as Orlais, but they would still feel the effects of the removal of the chantry and people would still die.. To what degree however cannot be determined but only second guessed

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 19 février 2011 - 07:45 .

[errant_knight]

I don't see how you could remove an institution that the majority of people believe in and support not in a large scale world wide way. You might be able to drive them out of one city--say Kirkwall--but that would probably result in an exalted march.

[Riona45]

errant_knight wrote...

I don't see how you could remove an institution that the majority of people believe in and support not in a large scale world wide way. You might be able to drive them out of one city--say Kirkwall--but that would probably result in an exalted march.

I don't know how closely you're following what's been revealed about the plot, but we do know that something happens (that Hawke played a pivotal role in) that causes the Chantry to lose a significant amount of its power.  It's the reason why Cassandra is trying to learn about Hawke's rise to power.

[Augustei]

Haverrun wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Capt. Obvious wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

The Chantry does FAR MORE than just hide away mages in towers.

Oh, you don't have to tell ME this.  I am very much aware of the fact that the Chantry is an institution of invasive culture hegemony and I've discussed on this forum more than once.  However, I try to keep in mind that the Chantry--the correct political entity--was just one version of the religion about Andraste and the Maker (the one an Orlesian emperor decided was correct) and that it's probably possible to have a less authoritarian version of it.

Why have a less authoritarian version of it? The Chantry is too weak. If it goes down the toilet even more, Thedas might as well make way for the Qun. Resistance is futile.

So.. Inflict mass suffering to introduce a new system of.... Suffering.. "Dont worry mages, we will get rid of these damn oppresors.. all you gotta do is have your tongue cut out, be leashed and put in a pen"

Historically, the Chantry was able to fight back the Qunari with the help of mages who played a large part in it. Isn't Tevinter between the Chantry nations and the Qunari? I believe that they're the border keeping the Qunari from launching an all-out invasion on the rest of Thedas.

They can come through Antiva- Which is a Chantry nation, The Free Marches, Which is a chantry nation, Orlais which is definitly a chantry nation, Ferelden which is a chantry Nation, or the Anderfels which is a chantry nation.

Tevinter is only parallel to Seheron where the Qunari are centralised in par Vollen which Rivain would be between the chantry nations and the Qunari. Rivain has no formal religion however

[Augustei]

Riona45 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I don't see how you could remove an institution that the majority of people believe in and support not in a large scale world wide way. You might be able to drive them out of one city--say Kirkwall--but that would probably result in an exalted march.

I don't know how closely you're following what's been revealed about the plot, but we do know that something happens (that Hawke played a pivotal role in) that causes the Chantry to lose a significant amount of its power.  It's the reason why Cassandra is trying to learn about Hawke's rise to power.

Kirkwall is the centre of the Chantrys Eastern power. so if they lost Kirkwall they could by exstention lose All of their eastern influence

[Nashiktal]

Remove the chantry? Won't happen. Major religions such as this don't dissapears in a fiery bang. They stretch, split, and multiply. They also "adapt" somehow and remain relevant for a time. The chantry will probably have it's Luther and cause a split. (Besides my hawke will support the chantry.)

[HolyJellyfish]

Nashiktal wrote...

Remove the chantry? Won't happen. Major
religions such as this don't dissapears in a fiery bang. They stretch,
split, and multiply. They also "adapt" somehow and remain relevant for a
time. The chantry will probably have it's Luther and cause a split.
(Besides my hawke will support the chantry.)

Are
you so sure your Hawke will support the chantry as it is? Your PC's
father was killed / removed because of the Chantry. Not only that, but
if you are a Mage, the Chantry will certainly not care for your support
(You are a wanted apostate). And even if you aren't, Bethany isn't going
to make friends with them.

YOu may not have much of a choice.

[LobselVith8]

Ancient Egyptian gods and the pantheon of gods of the Ancient Greeks and Romans were part of major religions at one time, too.

[Hakuro de Killer]

Dhiro wrote...

And gay elves! Who will save us from the gay elves! They're not even bisexual, the bastards!

You rang?