244 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

The RustMonster wrote...

TJPags wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

TJPags wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

TJPags wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Cullen was a severely traumatized man. I don't think anyone would be right in the head after forcing to endure what he endured.

Lots of people have been traumatized.

Not all did what he did.

Different people react differently to trauma. It all depends on the personality of the victim and what their personal breaking point happens to be. 

That's absolutely true.

I only bring him into it because he's really the only person connected with the Chantry that I can think of acting in an evil way.

I wouldn't call him evil though. He has the good intentions of Thedas at heart. It may be a cruel act, but it can definitely be rationally justified. Like everything else in DA, it can't be called evil 100%. Dark, yes. Evil, not really.

Again, I don't necessarily disagree.  I said he acted in an evil way, not that he was evil.

But I can't think of another character associated with the Chantry who acted in a way that can be called evil.
 
Can anyone else?

I think there's purposefully no overtly evil character in the Chantry. If there was, it would put pretty much everyone on the anti-Chantry side of the debate. But by having grey Chantry characters, and some genuinely good characters, it leaves both sides viable viewpoints.

I'm not even really sure there are grey characters - other than Cullen.

Really, the whole debate, IMO, comes down to people who think it's evil to keep the mages locked up v those who don't think that.

Like any religion, it's those in charge who determine the actions of the organization.  We haven't met those people yet.  They may be evil, simply misguided, or genuinely good-hearted, and feel they have no choice.

[Albatroz]

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

The Dalish were raiding human settlements, and offering humans as sacrifices to their gods. Additionally, the Chantry didn't start the war, the Orlesian empire did. When the Dalish counterattacked the Orlesians with an extremely powerful force, the Chantry and Templars got involved to help protect Orlais.

[Eveangaline]

mrsph wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

The elves may or may not have started that war.

And the dwarves? At the end of DAO, the chantry wants to do an exalted march on them if they have a circle of mages....basically they want to march on them for not following the mage imprisoning practices of the chantry, when Orzamar isn't even a chantry following country!

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

It's all in context I think. It seems fairly clear, despite our own open-minded 21st century views, that humanity does not view elves and dwarves as "human" or remotely equal beings in the world of Dragon Age (btw, what is the world itself called). From their perspective, I doubt many humans loose sleep over the fate of dwarves and elves.

As has been mentioned, most of the "hate" for the Chantry, joking or real, mostly stems out of the realtively negative picture we have towards that type of institution today. If we want to joke less about this than it's important to try to look at things through the eyes of a native human of the era.

Obviously if you identified with a dwarf or elf (as evidenced by your avatar) you might think differently, but from an in-game human point of view, I doubt many view what they do as evil.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 19 février 2011 - 05:01 .

[Albatroz]

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
 By purging the Tower and starting over at zero, you can assure the safety of everyone else in Thedas. I'd say you can definitely consider that a justifiable action. Whether or not you agree with it is another thing entirely.

That wasn't what I was talking about though.

I guess we're pretty much never on the same page.

My bad. I'll be honest, I didn't know there was an epilogue entry about Cullen going crazy. I assumed everyone was talking about his opinion to go through with the Rite of Annulment. Still, knowing this now, I would chalk that up to insanity after being mentally tortured by demons and blood mages, not an act of evil

[Narrsan]

Nimpe wrote...

I heard the chantry ate my future babies

[Riona45]

AlexXIV wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Depends on what ending you get. Save the circle and he snaps and kills a bunch of mages.

To be honest that's what I thought was being talked about.

Doesn't it depend on how you talk to him? I remember I got the 'snapping' ending only once but the second and following I played nice with him and there was no mention of him in the epilogues. Unless it is a bug again.

No, I don't think the tone you use matters, I think what's important is how you deal with the mage tower, as stated before.  If you purge the tower, he eventually takes it over and rules as a hardass.  I saved the mages and asked for the mage boon, and got the ending in which he snaps, runs a few innocent appentices through, and escapes, presumably to become some sort of mage serial killer.

That is what cannot be rationally justified.  It might be understandable (via the insanity defense) but not justifiable.

[TJPags]

Eveangaline wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

The elves may or may not have started that war.

And the dwarves? At the end of DAO, the chantry wants to do an exalted march on them if they have a circle of mages....basically they want to march on them for not following the mage imprisoning practices of the chantry, when Orzamar isn't even a chantry following country!

Are you sure about this? I remember a slide indicating there was an Exalted March considered when Brother Burkel is killed during some rioting . . . .But not the one your referring to.

And besides - epilogues are rumor and hearsay.

[Eveangaline]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

It's all in context I think. It seems fairly clear, despite our own open-minded 21st century views, that humanity does not view elves and dwarves as "human" or remotely equal beings in the world of Dragon Age (btw, what is the world itself called). From their perspective, I doubt many humans loose sleep over the fate of dwarves and elves.

As has been mentioned, most of the "hate" for the Chantry, joking or real, mostly stems out of the realtively negative picture we have towards that type of institution today. If we want to joke less about this than it's important to try to look at things through the eyes of a native human of the era.

I'm not joking. They think it's justified to spread their religion on the point of a sword, that's evil. It's unequestionably evil, as would be the people that support it.

[AustinKain]

The Water God wrote...

AustinKain wrote...

The Water God wrote...

AustinKain wrote...

Zabaniya wrote...

AustinKain wrote...

It was emperor Kordilius Drakon I of Orlais who formalized the cult into a religion and created the frist Chantry.

So the Chantry is a Orlaisean cult and therefore it is evil.

Evil, but with outrageous fashion.  Especially their shoes.  They're such ridiculous shoes.

 

Also in Orlais the nobles all wear a comsetic( Orlias men wear make up) to show their status, and the highest of the rankings will weak masks to demonstrate their rank.

Not to mention ALL Nobles in Orlais are Bisexuals!!!!

Sorry but the book i have that is from the offical lore doesnt say anything about the bisexual nature but what i put in previously was from the offical strategy guide for DA2.(the mini guide is free at Gamestop& EBgames now)

The aristocrats of orlais like to outdo each other when it comes to sexual tastes. According to the wiki most orleasians just consider homosexuality a quirk of character. One famous example is orleasian emperor Florian is said to have had sexual relations with his cousin Meghren from the stolen throne.

But thats a topic for another day.

Never belive everything you read in a wiki.

[Eveangaline]

TJPags wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

The elves may or may not have started that war.

And the dwarves? At the end of DAO, the chantry wants to do an exalted march on them if they have a circle of mages....basically they want to march on them for not following the mage imprisoning practices of the chantry, when Orzamar isn't even a chantry following country!

Are you sure about this? I remember a slide indicating there was an Exalted March considered when Brother Burkel is killed during some rioting . . . .But not the one your referring to.

And besides - epilogues are rumor and hearsay.

It can happen in two ways, one the riots with burkel, or two helping dagna go study at the circle. And frankly, their using the death of one man as an excuse to invade a country is also bs.

[Maugrim]

Like all long standing organizations the Chantry has issues. What the Chantry needs is something akin to the Reformation. Ideally not as violent but seeing as this is Dragon Age it probably wouldn't be all sunshines and unicorns.

None of my Hawke's will be pro or anti chantry, they will if possible work to improve it.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 19 février 2011 - 05:03 .

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Eveangaline wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

Evil and good aren't absolutes. They're directly linked to a cultural/social point of view. From my personal view (ie: me, the person sitting in this chair typing this) I think the Chantry is pretty evil. Then again, I think most of human society in the game is. It helps to be able to see things from other than your view point though.

It's all in context I think. It seems fairly clear, despite our own open-minded 21st century views, that humanity does not view elves and dwarves as "human" or remotely equal beings in the world of Dragon Age (btw, what is the world itself called). From their perspective, I doubt many humans loose sleep over the fate of dwarves and elves.

As has been mentioned, most of the "hate" for the Chantry, joking or real, mostly stems out of the realtively negative picture we have towards that type of institution today. If we want to joke less about this than it's important to try to look at things through the eyes of a native human of the era.

I'm not joking. They think it's justified to spread their religion on the point of a sword, that's evil. It's unequestionably evil, as would be the people that support it.

Evil and good aren't absolutes. They're based off your moral compass which is usually based off the society you belong to. Certainly, my personal view is that the Chantry is evil. So is most of human society. Personal view being that of me, the person in my chair typing all this. But, it's important to be able to see through the eyes of others to understand where they're coming from. Something I don't think you're doing. At all.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 19 février 2011 - 05:07 .

[Riona45]

TJPags wrote...
Really, the whole debate, IMO, comes down to people who think it's evil to keep the mages locked up v those who don't think that.

No, it's more complicated than that, it's just that the "mage debate" seems to be what people tend to prefer discussing.

[Eveangaline]

mrsph wrote...

Orzammar can get an exalted declared on by making these choices (from the wiki so take it with a grain of salt)

Harrowmont as leader with Branka getting the anvil (she starts kidnapping surfacers)
Allow a chantry to be opened in Orzammar
Dagna being allowed to go to the circle.

Are you sure about the first one? I don't remember that.

[Legbiter]

The Andrastian chantry and it's teachings is the bedrock on which civilization in Thedas is built. If there was no Chantry then most of Thedas would be civilized via the Qun.

And if neither was present then Thedas would be confined to whatever brutish tribe you were born into, Sunday being Headhunt Day.

A continent consisting of secular, kind and sensitive societies agreeable to the emo-teens here, would not last five minutes against well, anything really.

Plus, any RPG based on it would kinda suck.

Modifié par Legbiter, 19 février 2011 - 05:07 .

[AlexXIV]

Riona45 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Depends on what ending you get. Save the circle and he snaps and kills a bunch of mages.

To be honest that's what I thought was being talked about.

Doesn't it depend on how you talk to him? I remember I got the 'snapping' ending only once but the second and following I played nice with him and there was no mention of him in the epilogues. Unless it is a bug again.

No, I don't think the tone you use matters, I think what's important is how you deal with the mage tower, as stated before.  If you purge the tower, he eventually takes it over and rules as a hardass.  I saved the mages and asked for the mage boon, and got the ending in which he snaps, runs a few innocent appentices through, and escapes, presumably to become some sort of mage serial killer.

That is what cannot be rationally justified.  It might be understandable (via the insanity defense) but not justifiable.

I save the circle everytime but only got him snapping when I talked to him in a fashion as if I don't care what he says. I don't exactly remember, but options were like 'I don't fear abominations, they fear me', 'I am not going to kill innocents', 'I rather spare a maleficar than killing an innocent' and 'I will see what has to be done when I get there'. After first time I always picked the neutral to keep him from snapping since I wanted Cullen to not snap and save the Circle at the same time.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 février 2011 - 05:07 .

[Eveangaline]

Legbiter wrote...

The Andrastian chantry and it's teachings is the bedrock on which civilization in Thedas is built. If there was no Chantry then most of Thedas would be civilized via the Qun.

And if neither was present then Thedas would be confined to whatever brutish tribe you were born into, Sunday being Headhunt Day.

A continent consisting of secular, kind and sensitive societies agreeable to the emo-teens here, where the big issues of the day revolved around some combination

Forgetting the civilization of the Tevinter imperium?

[Riona45]

The RustMonster wrote...
My bad. I'll be honest, I didn't know there was an epilogue entry about Cullen going crazy. I assumed everyone was talking about his opinion to go through with the Rite of Annulment.

 
Fair enough.

Still, knowing this now, I would chalk that up to insanity after being mentally tortured by demons and blood mages, not an act of evil

Read my posts carefully and you'll note that I never even mentioned the word "evil."  I also already mentioned the insanity defense.

Are you just predisposed to disagreeing with me or something?

Modifié par Riona45, 19 février 2011 - 05:07 .

[Albatroz]

Eveangaline wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

It's all in context I think. It seems fairly clear, despite our own open-minded 21st century views, that humanity does not view elves and dwarves as "human" or remotely equal beings in the world of Dragon Age (btw, what is the world itself called). From their perspective, I doubt many humans loose sleep over the fate of dwarves and elves.

As has been mentioned, most of the "hate" for the Chantry, joking or real, mostly stems out of the realtively negative picture we have towards that type of institution today. If we want to joke less about this than it's important to try to look at things through the eyes of a native human of the era.

I'm not joking. They think it's justified to spread their religion on the point of a sword, that's evil. It's unequestionably evil, as would be the people that support it.

It can't be "unquestionably evil" because I'm questioning it. Brother Burkel tried to spread the Chant peacefully, and in the epilogue he ends up being lynched because of it. This was an act of aggression instigated by the dwarves against the Chantry and Andrasitianism (term). Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

[TJPags]

Eveangaline wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

The elves may or may not have started that war.

And the dwarves? At the end of DAO, the chantry wants to do an exalted march on them if they have a circle of mages....basically they want to march on them for not following the mage imprisoning practices of the chantry, when Orzamar isn't even a chantry following country!

Are you sure about this? I remember a slide indicating there was an Exalted March considered when Brother Burkel is killed during some rioting . . . .But not the one your referring to.

And besides - epilogues are rumor and hearsay.

It can happen in two ways, one the riots with burkel, or two helping dagna go study at the circle. And frankly, their using the death of one man as an excuse to invade a country is also bs.

Hmm, I've set Dagna up at the Circle several times, never got that slide.

But, again, I've lose all repect for epilogue slides and arguments based on them - no offense.

However, I'd argue that those actions - declaring Exalted Marches and the like - do not make the religion evil, but perhaps the people at the top.  I can draw some real world paralels, but such things are frowned upon on these boards.

We really need a private group to talk about things like this.