244 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark-sider77]

The chantry does have some issues, but calling it evil is big exaggeration. The chantry does serve a purpose in Thedas and it does its fair share of good deeds. It suffers from some corruption, but so do all human institutions. While the Chantry would benefit from reform, destroying it is going way to far and would do more harm than good. After all, outside the Chantry type civilizations in Thedas you are left with such wonderful examples like the Dwarfs with their oppressive caste system, the Tivinter Imperium with its mageocracy and institutionalized slavery, and the Qunari who are nothing if not strict and disciplined. You have the dalish, but they blame humans for losing their immortality and think isolation is the only way to regain it, such an attitude only encourages bigotry toward humans. Compared to its in universe alternatives, the chantry doesn't only look good, it looks like one of the more benevolent forces in Thedas.

[marshalleck]

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

[Albatroz]

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
My bad. I'll be honest, I didn't know there was an epilogue entry about Cullen going crazy. I assumed everyone was talking about his opinion to go through with the Rite of Annulment.

 
Fair enough.

Still, knowing this now, I would chalk that up to insanity after being mentally tortured by demons and blood mages, not an act of evil

Read my posts carefully and you'll note that I never even mentioned the word "evil."  I also already mentioned the insanity defense.

Are you just predisposed to disagreeing with me or something?

The evil comment was specifically directed at you, just kind of to this debate in general now that I'm aware that people were talking about the epilogue. As for the predispostion to disagreement, it kind of makes sense considering the context of what we've been talking about. I'm pro-Chantry, and you're not.

[Legbiter]

Eveangaline wrote...

Forgetting the civilization of the Tevinter imperium?

Naw. Tevinter at least pays lip service to Andraste even if they're technically heretics.

[Albatroz]

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

[TJPags]

Legbiter wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Forgetting the civilization of the Tevinter imperium?

Naw. Tevinter at least pays lip service to Andraste even if they're technically heretics.

Actually, they were pretty much an empire before Andraste.

Since, you know, she was an escaped Tevinter slave who made war on them.

[Eveangaline]

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

It's all in context I think. It seems fairly clear, despite our own open-minded 21st century views, that humanity does not view elves and dwarves as "human" or remotely equal beings in the world of Dragon Age (btw, what is the world itself called). From their perspective, I doubt many humans loose sleep over the fate of dwarves and elves.

As has been mentioned, most of the "hate" for the Chantry, joking or real, mostly stems out of the realtively negative picture we have towards that type of institution today. If we want to joke less about this than it's important to try to look at things through the eyes of a native human of the era.

I'm not joking. They think it's justified to spread their religion on the point of a sword, that's evil. It's unequestionably evil, as would be the people that support it.

It can't be "unquestionably evil" because I'm questioning it. Brother Burkel tried to spread the Chant peacefully, and in the epilogue he ends up being lynched because of it. This was an act of aggression instigated by the dwarves against the Chantry and Andrasitianism (term). Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

They're justified in invading somewhere so they can force it's people to hand over their natural resources? **** no. Their right to dope up their drugged guards doesn't overide the dwarves right to not be forced to convert or die. And yes what happened to brother burkal was sad, but it wasn't the orzamar government that killed him, it was random rioters. They're going to invade a country because a murder happened and it happened to be one of theirs that was killed? Do they invade ferelden anytime someone who follows the chant gets murdered? They were probably looking for an excuse.

[Roma Victa]

Nimpe wrote...

I heard the chantry ate my future babies

No, it was dingos that ate your baybees.

[Legbiter]

TJPags wrote...

Actually, they were pretty much an empire before Andraste.

Since, you know, she was an escaped Tevinter slave who made war on them.

You read the same codex entry as I did. Thanks for the heads up.

[AlexXIV]

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

I think Mr. Rustmonster is stretching the term 'justified' a bit too much. If that can be justified, then anything can. There is a difference between being just or a self-righteous, narrowminded and paranoid fool.

[Riona45]

The RustMonster wrote...
The evil comment was specifically directed at you...

I take it you mean it wasn't directed at me.  If not, you need to be more clear about what you mean.
 

As for the predispostion to disagreement, it kind of makes sense considering the context of what we've been talking about. I'm pro-Chantry, and you're not.

I've had debates that weren't this frustrating, so...no.

Modifié par Riona45, 19 février 2011 - 05:16 .

[Amagoi]

It's pretty obvious that an organization that regularly takes in single mothers and their bastards, and orphans is a nefarious group dedicated to pure evil. Where you been OP?

[Eveangaline]

AlexXIV wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

I think Mr. Rustmonster is stretching the term 'justified' a bit too much. If that can be justified, then anything can. There is a difference between being just or a self-righteous, narrowminded and paranoid fool.

So basically any reason anyone can think of for doing anything is enough justification I guess. New justification for the chantry, THEY WERE BORED!

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

The problem with this argument is half of you are arguing from your personal perspective and the other half is arguing from the perspective of a human inhabitant of Thedas. It's a pointless argument.

[Albatroz]

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
The evil comment was specifically directed at you...

I take it you mean it wasn't directed at me.  If not, you need to be more clear about what you mean.
 

As for the predispostion to disagreement, it kind of makes sense considering the context of what we've been talking about. I'm pro-Chantry, and you're not.

I've had debates that weren't this frustrating, so...no.

Did I honestly write was instead of wasn't? God it's late in my timezone. Sorry for the confusion, it's getting kind of hard to write without making mistakes right now. I should probably go to bed soon.

Modifié par The RustMonster, 19 février 2011 - 05:18 .

[marshalleck]

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

[Riona45]

Legbiter wrote...

The Andrastian chantry and it's teachings is the bedrock on which civilization in Thedas is built. If there was no Chantry then most of Thedas would be civilized via the Qun.

And if neither was present then Thedas would be confined to whatever brutish tribe you were born into, Sunday being Headhunt Day.

So, tribal societies are always "brutal?"  That's quite the value judgment there.

[megaz635]

Spoiler: The chantry leader is corrupted and in Dragon age 2 Hawke has the choice to kill the leader and steer the people of the world into a new way of life. Or Hawke may not interfere and see the actions of the chantry affect the future.

Joking

Modifié par megaz635, 19 février 2011 - 05:23 .

[Albatroz]

Eveangaline wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

I think Mr. Rustmonster is stretching the term 'justified' a bit too much. If that can be justified, then anything can. There is a difference between being just or a self-righteous, narrowminded and paranoid fool.

So basically any reason anyone can think of for doing anything is enough justification I guess. New justification for the chantry, THEY WERE BORED!

I'm just trying to say that there are multiple ways to look at the Chantry and there actions, and neither one is right. Looking at the things from the perspective of someone in the setting, the decisions make a lot of sense. Looking at them with a modern perspective and modern opinions makes things look pretty differently. Even in real life history we can look back and say "this was evil" or "this was wrong" or "I disagree with this" but if you think about in that periods context and culture it makes sense and seems well thought out. As a roleplayer, not a modern day citizen, I agree with most of the Chantry's actions and opinions.

[Riona45]

AlexXIV wrote...
I save the circle everytime but only got him snapping when I talked to him in a fashion as if I don't care what he says. I don't exactly remember, but options were like 'I don't fear abominations, they fear me', 'I am not going to kill innocents', 'I rather spare a maleficar than killing an innocent' and 'I will see what has to be done when I get there'. After first time I always picked the neutral to keep him from snapping since I wanted Cullen to not snap and save the Circle at the same time.

Trying to be "nice" to Cullen won't necessarily make him nice toward you, and it won't change his mind about mages, so I have the feeling it doesn't matter.

[TJPags]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

The problem with this argument is half of you are arguing from your personal perspective and the other half is arguing from the perspective of a human inhabitant of Thedas. It's a pointless argument.

Good point.

As someone else pointed out, the Chantry takes in orphans and such.  It - like any religion - gives people a sense of purpose and community.  These are good things, I think.

Like all religions - well, most - people who follow it want it to spread.  Obviously, they feel it is a good thing, and that others should be exposed to it.  Again, a good thing, or at least not an evil one.

Now, sometimes they do it by force.  I can agree this is wrong.  Yet as I hinted earlier, many real world relgions have done the same thing.  Does that make these current real world religions evil?  I think that's a stretch.

People who paint the Chantry and those in it as evil - I ask again, as I did earlier - can you find me a Chantry character who does evil things in an of the DA games?

[Eveangaline]

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

I think Mr. Rustmonster is stretching the term 'justified' a bit too much. If that can be justified, then anything can. There is a difference between being just or a self-righteous, narrowminded and paranoid fool.

So basically any reason anyone can think of for doing anything is enough justification I guess. New justification for the chantry, THEY WERE BORED!

I'm just trying to say that there are multiple ways to look at the Chantry and there actions, and neither one is right. Looking at the things from the perspective of someone in the setting, the decisions make a lot of sense. Looking at them with a modern perspective and modern opinions makes things look pretty differently. Even in real life history we can look back and say "this was evil" or "this was wrong" or "I disagree with this" but if you think about in that periods context and culture it makes sense and seems well thought out. As a roleplayer, not a modern day citizen, I agree with most of the Chantry's actions and opinions.

Interesting, it is always fun to roleplay as evil characters.

[Albatroz]

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

I'll grant you that there are some people in the Chantry are only looking out for themselves. But a lot of people, perhaps the majority, actually want to make a difference. Look at it like a police force. Yes, there are the corrupt cops, or the cops that only want the thrill of busting people for no good reason. But a lot of them genuinely want to make their town, city, state, or country a better place for the rest of the citizens to live. How does this change just because its a fantasy setting?

[Eveangaline]

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

I'll grant you that there are some people in the Chantry are only looking out for themselves. But a lot of people, perhaps the majority, actually want to make a difference. Look at it like a police force. Yes, there are the corrupt cops, or the cops that only want the thrill of busting people for no good reason. But a lot of them genuinely want to make their town, city, state, or country a better place for the rest of the citizens to live. How does this change just because its a fantasy setting?

The problem with those kind of orginizations however, is that they promote such a 'this group comes before all!' that even those that do want to do good and help others, will often be willing to cover up or justify the bad actions taken by others in the group, or leading it. There are things like the 'blue code of silence' , where otherwise good cops will take measures to make sure that their comrades are not punished for indisgresions- which can range from parking tickets to rape. It puts the group, in this case the chantry, above doing good, and certainly above those who aren't members.