244 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

The problem with this argument is half of you are arguing from your personal perspective and the other half is arguing from the perspective of a human inhabitant of Thedas. It's a pointless argument.

Good point.

As someone else pointed out, the Chantry takes in orphans and such.  It - like any religion - gives people a sense of purpose and community.  These are good things, I think.

Like all religions - well, most - people who follow it want it to spread.  Obviously, they feel it is a good thing, and that others should be exposed to it.  Again, a good thing, or at least not an evil one.

Now, sometimes they do it by force.  I can agree this is wrong.  Yet as I hinted earlier, many real world relgions have done the same thing.  Does that make these current real world religions evil?  I think that's a stretch.

People who paint the Chantry and those in it as evil - I ask again, as I did earlier - can you find me a Chantry character who does evil things in an of the DA games?

The templars in awakenings who try to kill you if you break into the house where anders suspects his phylactery. They don't actually 'do' evil because I kill them first, but if they for example succeeded killing the Commander of the Grey and Hero of Ferelden and his group, then the Mother would probably win and destroy Amaranthine and Vigil keep.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 19 février 2011 - 05:29 .

[Albatroz]

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

I think Mr. Rustmonster is stretching the term 'justified' a bit too much. If that can be justified, then anything can. There is a difference between being just or a self-righteous, narrowminded and paranoid fool.

So basically any reason anyone can think of for doing anything is enough justification I guess. New justification for the chantry, THEY WERE BORED!

I'm just trying to say that there are multiple ways to look at the Chantry and there actions, and neither one is right. Looking at the things from the perspective of someone in the setting, the decisions make a lot of sense. Looking at them with a modern perspective and modern opinions makes things look pretty differently. Even in real life history we can look back and say "this was evil" or "this was wrong" or "I disagree with this" but if you think about in that periods context and culture it makes sense and seems well thought out. As a roleplayer, not a modern day citizen, I agree with most of the Chantry's actions and opinions.

Interesting, it is always fun to roleplay as evil characters.

According to you. It's not black and white. It's all about perspective. I think by now I realize I'm not going to convice you otherwise, but there it is.

[Riona45]

TJPags wrote...
Like all religions - well, most - people who follow it want it to spread. 

Do we know for a fact that most religions that have ever existed have been like that?  That seems like a standing assertion that requires some evidence.

Modifié par Riona45, 19 février 2011 - 05:32 .

[Eveangaline]

Riona45 wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Like all religions - well, most - people who follow it want it to spread. 

Do we know for a fact that most religions that have ever existed have been like that?  That seems like a standing assertion that requires some evidence.

I'm pretty sure there are some that explicitely don't want to convert people, hell, in judaism rabbis are supposed to try to talk possible converts out of it.

[Albatroz]

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

I'll grant you that there are some people in the Chantry are only looking out for themselves. But a lot of people, perhaps the majority, actually want to make a difference. Look at it like a police force. Yes, there are the corrupt cops, or the cops that only want the thrill of busting people for no good reason. But a lot of them genuinely want to make their town, city, state, or country a better place for the rest of the citizens to live. How does this change just because its a fantasy setting?

The problem with those kind of orginizations however, is that they promote such a 'this group comes before all!' that even those that do want to do good and help others, will often be willing to cover up or justify the bad actions taken by others in the group, or leading it. There are things like the 'blue code of silence' , where otherwise good cops will take measures to make sure that their comrades are not punished for indisgresions- which can range from parking tickets to rape. It puts the group, in this case the chantry, above doing good, and certainly above those who aren't members.

So maybe they do cover for each other, but if they continue to do their jobs and bring others to justice, does the good not outweigh the bad? That's up to personal opinions.

I'd just like to take a step back and recommend to everyone here the book Gone, Baby, Gone by Denis Lehane. It's a really good mystery book that's ultimately about the difference between legal justice and social justice. I'm not going to say that it will change any one's argument here. Heck, it may even strengthen the opposing argument. But it's just  a really good book- one of my favorites- and it sort of relates to this subject.

[marshalleck]

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

I'll grant you that there are some people in the Chantry are only looking out for themselves. But a lot of people, perhaps the majority, actually want to make a difference. Look at it like a police force. Yes, there are the corrupt cops, or the cops that only want the thrill of busting people for no good reason. But a lot of them genuinely want to make their town, city, state, or country a better place for the rest of the citizens to live. How does this change just because its a fantasy setting?

Policing is most often nothing more than a reactive process, for example responding to the scene of a crime after a person has been murdered or killed someone who was attacking them. The onus of "protection" of the individual is and has always been on the individual. It's the same with Templars in DA; they ride into town after a mage has already gone full abomination and disintegrated half the local population. Which by the way, happens most often as a result of ignorance and poor or no magical training component in the popular culture--a side effect of people harboring and hiding their magi kin to keep them from being carted off to the local Circle Tower, never to be seen again. 

In cultivating and perpetuating the ignorance of magic and how to control it (by sequestering all mages in a tower) it can be said that the Chantry and their Templars are causing more harm than good by fostering an environment in which magic and its use is hidden and uncontrolled, which opens the door to demonic possession. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 février 2011 - 05:37 .

[Riona45]

Eveangaline wrote...

I'm pretty sure there are some that explicitely don't want to convert people, hell, in judaism rabbis are supposed to try to talk possible converts out of it.

Yeah.  I don't want to turn this into a discussion about real life religion, but the idea that people who practice a faith inevitably want it to spread isn't universal.  Even in the setting, the Dalish elves don't seem interested in getting humans to believe in their gods.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Wesley: She's an apostate. By dictate of the order...
Hawke: Keep that to yourself, Templar,  and I keep my sister from harming innocent people. Do we understand each other or shall I make you understand with my sword?
Aveline: Wesley, they save us. I'm sure The Maker understands...
Wesley: I understand...

[Eveangaline]

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

I'll grant you that there are some people in the Chantry are only looking out for themselves. But a lot of people, perhaps the majority, actually want to make a difference. Look at it like a police force. Yes, there are the corrupt cops, or the cops that only want the thrill of busting people for no good reason. But a lot of them genuinely want to make their town, city, state, or country a better place for the rest of the citizens to live. How does this change just because its a fantasy setting?

The problem with those kind of orginizations however, is that they promote such a 'this group comes before all!' that even those that do want to do good and help others, will often be willing to cover up or justify the bad actions taken by others in the group, or leading it. There are things like the 'blue code of silence' , where otherwise good cops will take measures to make sure that their comrades are not punished for indisgresions- which can range from parking tickets to rape. It puts the group, in this case the chantry, above doing good, and certainly above those who aren't members.

So maybe they do cover for each other, but if they continue to do their jobs and bring others to justice, does the good not outweigh the bad? That's up to personal opinions.

I'm sure the victems who try to get justice only to get stonewalled by supposedly good members don't think so. But I guess they don't have the right to be unhappy, after all, if someone goes out and gives alms to the poor, they get to commit one rape a year, or if they go out and save one kid, they're allowed to kidnap another! Because god knows,we shouldn't hold those who we're supposed to entrust with justice to any type of standards.

[Albatroz]

Ok, so I'm practically falling asleep at my keyboard so I'm gonna hit the sack. I'd just like to thank everyone involved for the good debate. I genuinely enjoy having these types of philosophical/political conversations. And remember, check out Gone, Baby, Gone from your local library for a good read on a subject sort of related to this.

[Fenn_]

They certainly have redeeming qualities but they need to be reformed or destroyed completely.

Modifié par Fenn , 19 février 2011 - 05:45 .

[Albatroz]

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

I'll grant you that there are some people in the Chantry are only looking out for themselves. But a lot of people, perhaps the majority, actually want to make a difference. Look at it like a police force. Yes, there are the corrupt cops, or the cops that only want the thrill of busting people for no good reason. But a lot of them genuinely want to make their town, city, state, or country a better place for the rest of the citizens to live. How does this change just because its a fantasy setting?

The problem with those kind of orginizations however, is that they promote such a 'this group comes before all!' that even those that do want to do good and help others, will often be willing to cover up or justify the bad actions taken by others in the group, or leading it. There are things like the 'blue code of silence' , where otherwise good cops will take measures to make sure that their comrades are not punished for indisgresions- which can range from parking tickets to rape. It puts the group, in this case the chantry, above doing good, and certainly above those who aren't members.

So maybe they do cover for each other, but if they continue to do their jobs and bring others to justice, does the good not outweigh the bad? That's up to personal opinions.

I'm sure the victems who try to get justice only to get stonewalled by supposedly good members don't think so. But I guess they don't have the right to be unhappy, after all, if someone goes out and gives alms to the poor, they get to commit one rape a year, or if they go out and save one kid, they're allowed to kidnap another! Because god knows,we shouldn't hold those who we're supposed to entrust with justice to any type of standards.

I'm not saying I agree with what I posted. I'm playing Devil's Advocate. If I had my way, every rapist would be rotting in a cell for the rest of his life. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's an opinion that exists and it's no less legitimate than anyone elses. No one perspective is more right or legitmate than any other on topics like this.

[Eveangaline]

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

I'll grant you that there are some people in the Chantry are only looking out for themselves. But a lot of people, perhaps the majority, actually want to make a difference. Look at it like a police force. Yes, there are the corrupt cops, or the cops that only want the thrill of busting people for no good reason. But a lot of them genuinely want to make their town, city, state, or country a better place for the rest of the citizens to live. How does this change just because its a fantasy setting?

The problem with those kind of orginizations however, is that they promote such a 'this group comes before all!' that even those that do want to do good and help others, will often be willing to cover up or justify the bad actions taken by others in the group, or leading it. There are things like the 'blue code of silence' , where otherwise good cops will take measures to make sure that their comrades are not punished for indisgresions- which can range from parking tickets to rape. It puts the group, in this case the chantry, above doing good, and certainly above those who aren't members.

So maybe they do cover for each other, but if they continue to do their jobs and bring others to justice, does the good not outweigh the bad? That's up to personal opinions.

I'm sure the victems who try to get justice only to get stonewalled by supposedly good members don't think so. But I guess they don't have the right to be unhappy, after all, if someone goes out and gives alms to the poor, they get to commit one rape a year, or if they go out and save one kid, they're allowed to kidnap another! Because god knows,we shouldn't hold those who we're supposed to entrust with justice to any type of standards.

I'm not saying I agree with what I posted. I'm playing Devil's Advocate. If I had my way, every rapist would be rotting in a cell for the rest of his life. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's an opinion that exists and it's no less legitimate than anyone elses. No one perspective is more right or legitmate than any other on topics like this.

Your point rests on the false belief that opinions can't be wrong. Opinions can be wrong. Opinions can be illigitimate if they are based on faulty assumptions or misinformation.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

I'll grant you that there are some people in the Chantry are only looking out for themselves. But a lot of people, perhaps the majority, actually want to make a difference. Look at it like a police force. Yes, there are the corrupt cops, or the cops that only want the thrill of busting people for no good reason. But a lot of them genuinely want to make their town, city, state, or country a better place for the rest of the citizens to live. How does this change just because its a fantasy setting?

The problem with those kind of orginizations however, is that they promote such a 'this group comes before all!' that even those that do want to do good and help others, will often be willing to cover up or justify the bad actions taken by others in the group, or leading it. There are things like the 'blue code of silence' , where otherwise good cops will take measures to make sure that their comrades are not punished for indisgresions- which can range from parking tickets to rape. It puts the group, in this case the chantry, above doing good, and certainly above those who aren't members.

So maybe they do cover for each other, but if they continue to do their jobs and bring others to justice, does the good not outweigh the bad? That's up to personal opinions.

I'm sure the victems who try to get justice only to get stonewalled by supposedly good members don't think so. But I guess they don't have the right to be unhappy, after all, if someone goes out and gives alms to the poor, they get to commit one rape a year, or if they go out and save one kid, they're allowed to kidnap another! Because god knows,we shouldn't hold those who we're supposed to entrust with justice to any type of standards.

I'm not saying I agree with what I posted. I'm playing Devil's Advocate. If I had my way, every rapist would be rotting in a cell for the rest of his life. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's an opinion that exists and it's no less legitimate than anyone elses. No one perspective is more right or legitmate than any other on topics like this.

Your point rests on the false belief that opinions can't be wrong. Opinions can be wrong. Opinions can be illigitimate if they are based on faulty assumptions or misinformation.

I just wanted to quote this to keep the quote-within-a-quote going. Will it break when it shrinks down to a letter a line? The suspense! 

[LobselVith8]

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

The Dalish were raiding human settlements, and offering humans as sacrifices to their gods. Additionally, the Chantry didn't start the war, the Orlesian empire did. When the Dalish counterattacked the Orlesians with an extremely powerful force, the Chantry and Templars got involved to help protect Orlais.

The Dalish claim the war happened because they refused to convert and kicked out the missionaries, and then the Chantry sent in templars. As for the human sacrifices, there's no evidence to support this is true with any of the clans we encounter. In fact, Orlais has a history of invading other nations, dating back to its inception with Emperor Drakon and followed through with the invasion of Nevarra after the Third Blight (a nation they "saved" from the darkspawn) and the current attempts to take over Ferelden.

TJPags wrote...
Really, the whole debate, IMO, comes down to people who think it's evil to keep the mages locked up v those who don't think that.

Actually, you're very wrong about that, but I'd rather avoid another mages vs. templars debate than point out how ridiculous your comment is.

[Johnny Shepard]

[quote]kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

[quote]Eveangaline wrote...

[quote]The RustMonster wrote...

[quote]Eveangaline wrote...

[quote]The RustMonster wrote...

[quote]Eveangaline wrote...

[quote]The RustMonster wrote...

[quote]marshalleck wrote...

[quote]The RustMonster wrote...

[quote]marshalleck wrote...

[quote]The RustMonster wrote...
Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

[/quote]
You mean so they can keep their Templar army addicted and under their control.

[/quote]

Templars either volunteer, or are volunteered by their parents as children which is no fault of the Chantry. Either way, they know what they're getting into. I'll also say again, it's arguably justifiable because it helps to serve the greater good and safety of all of Thedas.

[/quote] You're right, it's all an act of pure altruism. I'm sure there is no material motivation in maintaining a standing army of drug-addicted Templars in several nations of Thedas, or monopolizing the lucrative production of magical items, potions, or healing services. Nope, none at all. "We're doing this for the people!"

Uh-huh. Heard it before, didn't buy it then, don't buy it now. The Chantry is a self-serving institution that's looking out for it's own power and prestige. It is not interested in the well-being of the people. That society has yet to melt down (at least by medieval standards) is more to do with intimidation, coercion, and lucky happenstance than some ephemeral notion of "the greater good" being served. 

[/quote]

I'll grant you that there are some people in the Chantry are only looking out for themselves. But a lot of people, perhaps the majority, actually want to make a difference. Look at it like a police force. Yes, there are the corrupt cops, or the cops that only want the thrill of busting people for no good reason. But a lot of them genuinely want to make their town, city, state, or country a better place for the rest of the citizens to live. How does this change just because its a fantasy setting?

[/quote]

The problem with those kind of orginizations however, is that they promote such a 'this group comes before all!' that even those that do want to do good and help others, will often be willing to cover up or justify the bad actions taken by others in the group, or leading it. There are things like the 'blue code of silence' , where otherwise good cops will take measures to make sure that their comrades are not punished for indisgresions- which can range from parking tickets to rape. It puts the group, in this case the chantry, above doing good, and certainly above those who aren't members.[/quote]

So maybe they do cover for each other, but if they continue to do their jobs and bring others to justice, does the good not outweigh the bad? That's up to personal opinions.

[/quote]
I'm sure the victems who try to get justice only to get stonewalled by supposedly good members don't think so. But I guess they don't have the right to be unhappy, after all, if someone goes out and gives alms to the poor, they get to commit one rape a year, or if they go out and save one kid, they're allowed to kidnap another! Because god knows,we shouldn't hold those who we're supposed to entrust with justice to any type of standards. [/quote]

I'm not saying I agree with what I posted. I'm playing Devil's Advocate. If I had my way, every rapist would be rotting in a cell for the rest of his life. I'm just trying to get the point across that it's an opinion that exists and it's no less legitimate than anyone elses. No one perspective is more right or legitmate than any other on topics like this.

[/quote]

Your point rests on the false belief that opinions can't be wrong. Opinions can be wrong. Opinions can be illigitimate if they are based on faulty assumptions or misinformation. [/quote]

I just wanted to quote this to keep the quote-within-a-quote going. Will it break when it shrinks down to a letter a line? The suspense! 

[/quote]
The problem I se with the Chantry is that they have really strick rules of how to belive. You have to belive that the Maker is gone and that only by pain and devotion can he return. They are also selfish because they all want to be the one that the Maker returns to and treat people who belive that he has not left, badly.

[Razored1313]

No not evil, corrupt definitely but not evil.



The way they treat mages is cruel, and non believers are mocked, any other opposing theories are swiftly dealt with (the whole andraste being a Mage theory for example)



I believe reform is required, and if presented with the option to get rid of higher ups, then chantry will survive in my universe, otherwise the chantry WILL fall if I am presented the option.

[marshalleck]

The RustMonster wrote...

I'm not saying I agree with what I posted. I'm playing Devil's Advocate. If I had my way, every rapist would be rotting in a cell for the rest of his life.

Well see that goes back to my earlier point. The Chantry and Templars don't really prevent the crimes they supposedly police from happening. Is the rapist sitting in a cell for the rest of his life justice? The crime was perpetrated and nothing can undo that.  We need to steer this back onto Dragon Age though before it delves into the abyss, so let's consider the apostate. Is it really most effective to break up families, haul off children and murder parents or siblings that use magic, thus creating a motivation to keep its status hidden (and often untrained) and thus greatly increasing the possibility of a mage becoming possessed and going on a rampage? And why is it necessary that all contact with families and friends must be severed upon going to a Circle Tower? There are other groups that do this, they are cults and they seek to sever those core relationships that tie people together in order to break down the mental resistance to influence over behavior and thought. 

Could there not be a better way where magic is taught to be a natural ability? Where Circle Towers don't lock people away from society forever, but where the residents are allowed to practice their craft and do their research with transparency and openness? I hate to evoke mental images of Hogwart's  but rather than using the Circle Towers as brainwashed exploitative labor, why not treat it as an academic/research/trade institution, where people don't have to live in fear of being run through and their families don't have to be broken apart to get them there?

Well, here's why not: because as I said earlier, the Chantry is primarily concerned with its own power and influence, and relinquishing that control is not in its own interest. So control must be wrested from it by force, if it will not be given up voluntarily. If the Chantry and the Templars refuse to bend, they'll be broken instead. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 février 2011 - 06:11 .

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

The RustMonster wrote...

TJPags wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Cullen was a severely traumatized man. I don't think anyone would be right in the head after forcing to endure what he endured.

Lots of people have been traumatized.

Not all did what he did.

Different people react differently to trauma. It all depends on the personality of the victim and what their personal breaking point happens to be. 

I think his point is that regardless of the trauma others have endured their own pains and were made better. Just because you have something bad happen to you doesnt mean you have to let it taint you

[Eveangaline]

marshalleck wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

I'm not saying I agree with what I posted. I'm playing Devil's Advocate. If I had my way, every rapist would be rotting in a cell for the rest of his life.

Well see that goes back to my earlier point. The Chantry and Templars don't really prevent the crimes they supposedly police from happening. Is the rapist sitting in a cell for the rest of his life justice? The crime was perpetrated and nothing can undo that.  We need to steer this back onto Dragon Age though before it delves into the abyss, so let's consider the apostate. Is it really most effective to break up families, haul off children and murder parents or siblings that use magic, thus creating a motivation to keep its status hidden (and often untrained) and thus greatly increasing the possibility of a mage becoming possessed and going on a rampage? And why is it necessary that all contact with families and friends must be severed upon going to a Circle Tower? There are other groups that do this, they are cults and they seek to sever those core relationships that tie people together in order to break down the mental resistance to influence over behavior and thought. 

Could there not be a better way where magic is taught to be a natural ability? Where Circle Towers don't lock people away from society forever, but where the residents are allowed to practice their craft and do their research with transparency and openness? I hate to evoke mental images of Hogwart's  but rather than using the Circle Towers as brainwashed exploitative labor, why not treat it as an academic/research/trade institution, where people don't have to live in fear of being run through and their families don't have to be broken apart to get them there?

Well, here's why not: because as I said earlier, the Chantry is primarily concerned with its own power and influence, and relinquishing that control is not in its own interest. So control must be wrested from it by force, if it will not be given up voluntarily. 

Or they could go back to hedge mages, or the system the dalish use. THey don't have circles and they're just fine. And agreed 100% on the chantry.

Modifié par Eveangaline, 19 février 2011 - 06:11 .

[marshalleck]

Eveangaline wrote...

Or they could go back to hedge mages, or the system the dalish use. THey don't have circles and they're just fine.

The dalish are a perfect example of magical control as a function of the culture, and the Chantry's way not being the only way and definitely far from the best way.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 février 2011 - 06:16 .

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

How in the world do we know the Dalish are fine? Because we don't run into any problems they have with mages running wild in our adventures?

I mean seriously. Look into a mirror and ask yourself if you really, really, really believe people who have access to the type of power magic brings will generally spit out responsible, well adjusted members of society. Really.

We could really go loopy and say the reason the Dalish are still so few in number is because half their leaders end up massaccaring them all. ;p The point being that we have no idea really what the state of mage....irresponsibility is in the Dalish community. A reasonable person though can probably hazard some guesses though.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 19 février 2011 - 06:15 .

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

How in the world do we know the Dalish are fine? Because we don't run into any problems they have with mages running wild in our adventures?

I mean seriously. Look into a mirror and ask yourself if you really, really, really believe people who have access to the type of power magic brings will generally spit out responsible, well adjusted members of society. Really.

We could really go loopy and say the reason the Dalish are still so few in number is because half their leaders end up massaccaring them all. ;p The point being that we have no idea really what the state of mage....irresponsibility is in the Dalish community. A reasonable person though can probably hazard some guesses though.

I have to agree with this. Not all Dalish mages are well adjusted. Look at Zath or Velanna. They both used their magical abilities to bring harm to others to quench their thirst for vengeance

[marshalleck]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

How in the world do we know the Dalish are fine? Because we don't run into any problems they have with mages running wild in our adventures?

I mean seriously. Look into a mirror and ask yourself if you really, really, really believe people who have access to the type of power magic brings will generally spit out responsible, well adjusted members of society. Really.

We could really go loopy and say the reason the Dalish are still so few in number is because half their leaders end up massaccaring them all. ;p The point being that we have no idea really what the state of mage....irresponsibility is in the Dalish community. A reasonable person though can probably hazard some guesses though.

I have to agree with this. Not all Dalish mages are well adjusted. Look at Zath or Velanna. They both used their magical abilities to bring harm to others to quench their thirst for vengeance

As if Circle mages are well-adjusted? Look at Uldred. Cherry-picking contrary examples doesn't advance the conversation. And please, it's not MAGIC that powered their thirst for vengeance, it was their personalities. If they couldn't shoot fire from their fingertips they'd use swords and arrows instead. And if they couldn't use those, they'd drop boulders on their foes. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 février 2011 - 06:22 .

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

marshalleck wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

How in the world do we know the Dalish are fine? Because we don't run into any problems they have with mages running wild in our adventures?

I mean seriously. Look into a mirror and ask yourself if you really, really, really believe people who have access to the type of power magic brings will generally spit out responsible, well adjusted members of society. Really.

We could really go loopy and say the reason the Dalish are still so few in number is because half their leaders end up massaccaring them all. ;p The point being that we have no idea really what the state of mage....irresponsibility is in the Dalish community. A reasonable person though can probably hazard some guesses though.

I have to agree with this. Not all Dalish mages are well adjusted. Look at Zath or Velanna. They both used their magical abilities to bring harm to others to quench their thirst for vengeance

As if Circle mages are well-adjusted? Look at Uldred. Cherry-picking contrary examples doesn't advance the conversation. 

...that's the point. Mages are a recipe for disaster. I think it's nice that the world they live in actually took the time to ask itself, "would it really be realistic to have all these people with god-like powers roaming the lands unregulated?"

Obviously not every mage is going to be a power hungry maniac. We're not simpletons. People are more than a label. But, it's hard to argue that access to that much power doesn't have an effect one could probably pick up using statistical analysis if stats existed in that time.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 19 février 2011 - 06:26 .