244 réponses à ce sujet

[marshalleck]

 See the edit. That is the point. 

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

marshalleck wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

How in the world do we know the Dalish are fine? Because we don't run into any problems they have with mages running wild in our adventures?

I mean seriously. Look into a mirror and ask yourself if you really, really, really believe people who have access to the type of power magic brings will generally spit out responsible, well adjusted members of society. Really.

We could really go loopy and say the reason the Dalish are still so few in number is because half their leaders end up massaccaring them all. ;p The point being that we have no idea really what the state of mage....irresponsibility is in the Dalish community. A reasonable person though can probably hazard some guesses though.

I have to agree with this. Not all Dalish mages are well adjusted. Look at Zath or Velanna. They both used their magical abilities to bring harm to others to quench their thirst for vengeance

As if Circle mages are well-adjusted? Look at Uldred. Cherry-picking contrary examples doesn't advance the conversation. 

Im only trying to keep the convo grounded. I never even compared the dalish to the circle. i was agreeing with a post stating that there are also problems with the dalish system as well... and it also is not really cherry-picking since we havent met many dalish mages....

[LobselVith8]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

How in the world do we know the Dalish are fine? Because we don't run into any problems they have with mages running wild in our adventures?

I mean seriously. Look into a mirror and ask yourself if you really, really, really believe people who have access to the type of power magic brings will generally spit out responsible, well adjusted members of society. Really.

We could really go loopy and say the reason the Dalish are still so few in number is because half their leaders end up massaccaring them all. ;p The point being that we have no idea really what the state of mage....irresponsibility is in the Dalish community. A reasonable person though can probably hazard some guesses though.

I have to agree with this. Not all Dalish mages are well adjusted. Look at Zath or Velanna. They both used their magical abilities to bring harm to others to quench their thirst for vengeance

As if Circle mages are well-adjusted? Look at Uldred. Cherry-picking contrary examples doesn't advance the conversation. And please, it's not MAGIC that powered their thirst for vengeance, it was their personalities. If they couldn't shoot fire from their fingertips they'd use swords and arrows instead. And if they couldn't use those, they'd drop boulders on their foes. 

...that's the point. Mages are a recipe for disaster. I think it's nice that the world they live in actually took the time to ask itself, "would it really be realistic to have all these people with god-like powers roaming the lands unregulated?"

We have that in the nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Chasind tribes, so apparently people do think so. The ruler of Ferelden also declares that mages have earned the right to govern themselves if the Hero asks for the Circle to be given its independence. As for a recipe for disaster, you mean like Aneirin the Healer? Jowan becoming Master Levyn and protecting refugees from the darkspawn? The mages from the Circle of Magi saving the Andrastian nations from the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches? The Hero of Ferelden having the potential to be a mage?

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 février 2011 - 06:41 .

[marshalleck]

The Water God wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

How in the world do we know the Dalish are fine? Because we don't run into any problems they have with mages running wild in our adventures?

I mean seriously. Look into a mirror and ask yourself if you really, really, really believe people who have access to the type of power magic brings will generally spit out responsible, well adjusted members of society. Really.

We could really go loopy and say the reason the Dalish are still so few in number is because half their leaders end up massaccaring them all. ;p The point being that we have no idea really what the state of mage....irresponsibility is in the Dalish community. A reasonable person though can probably hazard some guesses though.

I have to agree with this. Not all Dalish mages are well adjusted. Look at Zath or Velanna. They both used their magical abilities to bring harm to others to quench their thirst for vengeance

As if Circle mages are well-adjusted? Look at Uldred. Cherry-picking contrary examples doesn't advance the conversation. And please, it's not MAGIC that powered their thirst for vengeance, it was their personalities. If they couldn't shoot fire from their fingertips they'd use swords and arrows instead. And if they couldn't use those, they'd drop boulders on their foes. 

And thats why magic in the hands of those people is dangerous in the first place.

Well the Chantry better start collecting and locking up bows, arrows, swords, and boulders as well. 

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

The Water God wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

How in the world do we know the Dalish are fine? Because we don't run into any problems they have with mages running wild in our adventures?

I mean seriously. Look into a mirror and ask yourself if you really, really, really believe people who have access to the type of power magic brings will generally spit out responsible, well adjusted members of society. Really.

We could really go loopy and say the reason the Dalish are still so few in number is because half their leaders end up massaccaring them all. ;p The point being that we have no idea really what the state of mage....irresponsibility is in the Dalish community. A reasonable person though can probably hazard some guesses though.

I have to agree with this. Not all Dalish mages are well adjusted. Look at Zath or Velanna. They both used their magical abilities to bring harm to others to quench their thirst for vengeance

As if Circle mages are well-adjusted? Look at Uldred. Cherry-picking contrary examples doesn't advance the conversation. And please, it's not MAGIC that powered their thirst for vengeance, it was their personalities. If they couldn't shoot fire from their fingertips they'd use swords and arrows instead. And if they couldn't use those, they'd drop boulders on their foes. 

And thats why magic in the hands of those people is dangerous in the first place.

Exactly...people with martial training are held to higher standards in american society because they are educated and capable of more because of their training...just as mages should be held to higher standards because of the power they are capable of...another example is connor...he had no evil motives but look at the damage he caused

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

I suppose in the end it comes down to drastically different levels of faith in their fellow man. Some of you apparently have much more than I. ;p

And please quote the full point I made. People are obviously not just the sum of their labels. But, I think it's naive to think overwhelming power doesn't tend to corrupt a person, even if there are those it doesn't.

And trying to compare this to a soldier is just being obstinate. For game balance reasons there are some mechanistic restrictions, but actual in-world/in-character/whatever...mages have far and above more power available to them than a soldier trained in the use of a sword.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 19 février 2011 - 06:30 .

[marshalleck]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Exactly...people with martial training are held to higher standards in american society because they are educated and capable of more because of their training...just as mages should be held to higher standards because of the power they are capable of...another example is connor...he had no evil motives but look at the damage he caused

The damage he caused because he was improperly trained, because his mother couldn't stand the idea of her son being taken from her, locked in a tower, and never being able to see him again. Perhaps if those were not the conditions for her son to be trained, she never would have hid his magical talent and tried to bring Jowan in secret to train the child. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 février 2011 - 06:32 .

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

marshalleck wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Exactly...people with martial training are held to higher standards in american society because they are educated and capable of more because of their training...just as mages should be held to higher standards because of the power they are capable of...another example is connor...he had no evil motives but look at the damage he caused

The damage he caused because he was improperly trained, because his mother couldn't stand the idea of her son being taken from her, locked in a tower, and never being able to see him again. 

And he was improperly trained because he wasnt at a circle.... so the system would have aided him if he had been there right????

[Chuvvy]

The only thing wrong with religion is people.

[Riona45]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...
And he was improperly trained because he wasnt at a circle.... so the system would have aided him if he had been there right????

He would have been there, most likely, if being a mage wasn't so stigmatized.

[LobselVith8]

The RustMonster wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Even ignoring their treatment of mages, they killed off tons of elves and took their homeland because they had a different religion. And at the end of DAO, they were thinking of doing the same to teh dwarves. That's pretty evil.

It's all in context I think. It seems fairly clear, despite our own open-minded 21st century views, that humanity does not view elves and dwarves as "human" or remotely equal beings in the world of Dragon Age (btw, what is the world itself called). From their perspective, I doubt many humans loose sleep over the fate of dwarves and elves.

As has been mentioned, most of the "hate" for the Chantry, joking or real, mostly stems out of the realtively negative picture we have towards that type of institution today. If we want to joke less about this than it's important to try to look at things through the eyes of a native human of the era.

I'm not joking. They think it's justified to spread their religion on the point of a sword, that's evil. It's unequestionably evil, as would be the people that support it.

It can't be "unquestionably evil" because I'm questioning it. Brother Burkel tried to spread the Chant peacefully, and in the epilogue he ends up being lynched because of it. This was an act of aggression instigated by the dwarves against the Chantry and Andrasitianism (term). Also, if Orzammar closes its doors to the surface, the Chantry is arguably justified in using force to keep their flow of lyrium coming, so they can continue to fight against the evils of blood mages and abominations with their Templars.

Or the right to keep armored drug addicts under their thumb by attacking a sovereign nation, which wouldn't do much good since they can't refine lyrium themselves and surface dwarves aren't "immune" to raw lyrium as the Orzammar dwarves are, so the Chantry can fight against the evils of mages who want to be emancipated from their oppressors.

[marshalleck]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Exactly...people with martial training are held to higher standards in american society because they are educated and capable of more because of their training...just as mages should be held to higher standards because of the power they are capable of...another example is connor...he had no evil motives but look at the damage he caused

The damage he caused because he was improperly trained, because his mother couldn't stand the idea of her son being taken from her, locked in a tower, and never being able to see him again. 

And he was improperly trained because he wasnt at a circle.... so the system would have aided him if he had been there right????

I've never once in this thread suggested that magical abilities don't need to be trained. Clearly they do. My argument is that the method the Chantry and Templars currently employee exacerbate the potential of wild mages attempting to avoid that training, at great risk to themselves and those around them. 

[Cervantesgiant]

I'm not going to participate in any overly meaningful way to the conversation other than asking as an observer it would be wonderful to see more citation of in game examples and facts, most of this seems really off the cuff and being generally interested in how this conversation goes (being that it isn't working from the premise that Chantry = evil) the lack of evidence for either position is a little troubling.

Is the chantry only concerned with its own power structure and influence? Why would you say it is?

Are templars actually enslaved via lyrium addiction or is it just the unfortunate consequence of what it takes to be a templar and why?

Simply because an explanation makes sense doesn't make it true.



As far as the chantry locking up mages while the elves seem to get along alright, from what I've seen demons don't appear to be as antagonistic towards the elves as they are towards humans, granted this is an argument from ignorance as we've never seen elves and demons interact. Another possibility is that it would appear that the elves are in general a mostly magical race where as humans are very selectively capable of being even weak mages and in this context the use of magic is more dangerous to the whole than it would be for elves.



We can't preclude the notion that the Andrastian religion is actually truth and if it is that would force us to reevaluate the light we view the chantry in, are they bigoted or are they simply not willing to compromise on what's true and right? We do not have the entire chant of light and so we cannot even begin to judge the Chantry within it's own context.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

[quote]Riona45 wrote...

[quote]TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...
And he was improperly trained because he wasnt at a circle.... so the system would have aided him if he had been there right????[/quote]

He would have been there, most likely, if being a mage wasn't so stigmatized.[/quote

I am not saying that it is right that they be locked up. i am saying it is necessary due to the inherent risks of the powers mages are capable of and the temptation they are constantly bombarded with via demons...

[LobselVith8]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

How in the world do we know the Dalish are fine? Because we don't run into any problems they have with mages running wild in our adventures?

I mean seriously. Look into a mirror and ask yourself if you really, really, really believe people who have access to the type of power magic brings will generally spit out responsible, well adjusted members of society. Really.

We could really go loopy and say the reason the Dalish are still so few in number is because half their leaders end up massaccaring them all. ;p The point being that we have no idea really what the state of mage....irresponsibility is in the Dalish community. A reasonable person though can probably hazard some guesses though.

The Dalish clans have been in existance for centuries, as have the Chasind tribes, and both have mages among non-mages, so I don't see why we couldn't conclude that they exist perfectly well without Chantry or templar control. Putting aside that there was an entire nation of mages and non-mages in the Dales, there's even a semi-permanent settement near the border of Rivain for the Dalish. I don't see why one would assume that there's no responsibility given the longevity of the Dalish.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

marshalleck wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Exactly...people with martial training are held to higher standards in american society because they are educated and capable of more because of their training...just as mages should be held to higher standards because of the power they are capable of...another example is connor...he had no evil motives but look at the damage he caused

The damage he caused because he was improperly trained, because his mother couldn't stand the idea of her son being taken from her, locked in a tower, and never being able to see him again. 

And he was improperly trained because he wasnt at a circle.... so the system would have aided him if he had been there right????

I've never once in this thread suggested that magical abilities don't need to be trained. Clearly they do. My argument is that the method the Chantry and Templars currently employee exacerbate the potential of wild mages attempting to avoid that training, at great risk to themselves and those around them. 

the method they currently employ is bad as it has fostered bad mages...they need to teach memebers of thedas that while some mages are susceptible to evil most are actually good people. however they still need to be held to a higher standard because of the dangers

[Riona45]

Cervantesgiant wrote...
We do not have the entire chant of light and so we cannot even begin to judge the Chantry within it's own context.

That's a pretty silly argument.  No one here lives in Thedas, and we can't read a fictional religious book, but that doesn't mean we can't have opinions about the Chantry based on what we do know about them (and you can't honestly argue that we don't know anything about them).

[marshalleck]

Cervantesgiant wrote...

I'm not going to participate in any overly meaningful way to the conversation other than asking as an observer it would be wonderful to see more citation of in game examples and facts, most of this seems really off the cuff and being generally interested in how this conversation goes (being that it isn't working from the premise that Chantry = evil) the lack of evidence for either position is a little troubling.
Is the chantry only concerned with its own power structure and influence? Why would you say it is?
Are templars actually enslaved via lyrium addiction or is it just the unfortunate consequence of what it takes to be a templar and why?

Try reading the codex and talking to characters in the first game. I've been reading and participating in discussions of the Chantry, Templars, and mages since DAO first came out over a year ago and I really am not interested in rehashing the fundamentals. Maybe someone else will.

[Riona45]

marshalleck wrote...

Try reading the codex and talking to characters in the first game. I've been reading and participating in discussions of the Chantry, Templars, and mages since DAO first came out over a year ago and I really am not interested in rehashing the fundamentals. Maybe someone else will.

Certainly not me.  There's plenty of lore on the wiki (with citations) for those who would like to educate themselves.

[KezzieZ]

I don't think everyone in the Chantry is evil.

The problem is that, like any sort of institution, there's going to be people that misinterpret what's supposed to be done or are in it for the influence (and the Chantry has plenty of that to throw around in Ferelden).

I mean, if you overhear the excerpts of The Chant of Light in-game, most of them seem to be about doing good deeds and such- at least, when they're not about the history of the Chantry and Maker or about spreading knowledge of the Chant.

[LobselVith8]

Cervantesgiant wrote...

I'm not going to participate in any overly meaningful way to the conversation other than asking as an observer it would be wonderful to see more citation of in game examples and facts, most of this seems really off the cuff and being generally interested in how this conversation goes (being that it isn't working from the premise that Chantry = evil) the lack of evidence for either position is a little troubling.
Is the chantry only concerned with its own power structure and influence? Why would you say it is?
Are templars actually enslaved via lyrium addiction or is it just the unfortunate consequence of what it takes to be a templar and why?

Alistair seemed to think it was, but we have no proof either way about the reason for their lyrium addiction. The Chantry has also supported the occupation of Ferelden by the Orlesian Empire, so power and influence are factors for their decisions. We also have the Dales codex from the Dalish Warden claiming templars were sent into the Dales after the elves refused to be converted and kicked out the missionaries.

As for what the Chantry does to the mages, Emperor Drakon established the Circle of Magi because of his religious views, along with the Chantry and the Order of Templars. No codex cites blood mages or abominations as the reason for the Circle. As for imprisoning mages in Circles, we have the History of the Circle codex to illustrate that imprisoning mages had to do with a peaceful protest held by mages in a cathedral, which the Divine Ambrosia wanted to respond to with an Exalted March on her own church, and it lead to mages being imprisoned for life. If mages are being imprisoned in present day because of a protest that was held centuries ago, it calls into question the validity of their claims that they do it for the greater good.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Here's what we know about the Dalish. Not what we pretend.



Dalish clans have 1-2 mages. No more than that. What they do with the others that have the gift. We have no idea. ie: What happened to all the others after Lanya wins the spot to be the apprentice. For all we know, they went ahead and killed them all to keep the possibility of mages going wild as low as possible.



Then we have actual Dalish mages we've met. Zathrian. Like many people in this world, he's not black or white. But, he's definitely got power. And he used it to curse countless humans to a life of lycanthropy. Far more than those who originally angered him. In fact, keeping this curse going was feeding him immortal life. Yea, sounds like a paragon of virtue there.



Then we have Velanna who's killing people fairly indiscriminately out of anger for her sister's kidnapping/capture.



Regardless of one's views on the morality of either, neither of them seems any more responsible or good or righteous or whatever other positive adjective you can think of than a typical human.



And yet, all these arguments that somehow the Danish are just better as a group of people than humanity. I find that silly.



And so, no. I don't think one can "conclude" that the Dalish are just "fine" with their mages.