244 réponses à ce sujet

[Riona45]

The Water God wrote...

The Tower not only protects the rest of Fereldan from mages but also protects the mages from the rest of Fereldan. If all the mages just decided to walk out of the tower today they would be torn apart from the crowds of people who hate mages themselves.

I guess you never thought carefully as to why that might be.  Then again, you started this thread assuming that everyone hates the Chantry--after participating in a thread only a few days back with people who clearly had diverse opinions--so you either aren't very bright or aren't very sincere.

Wynne even says herself "For every mage in the circle tower, theres another torn apart in a crowd somewhere."

She doesn't know everything.

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

The Tower not only protects the rest of Fereldan from mages but also protects the mages from the rest of Fereldan. If all the mages just decided to walk out of the tower today they would be torn apart from the crowds of people who hate mages themselves. If all of a sudden the Knight Commanders of the Chantry decided that the maker was cool with blood mages and just released them upon the world, there would be a major outcry from the rest of the nation. The mages need the circle at the moment, the average Fereldan citizen is far to intolerant.

Wynne even says herself "For every mage in the circle tower, theres another torn apart in a crowd somewhere."

Because the Chantry preaches hatred and intolerance of mages. Look at how Greagoir refers to mages as "cursed" in the opening of the Magi Origin, how Keli thinks all mages are cursed because of her Andrastian views, and Lily's comments about how Initiates are warned about the dangers "those cursed with magic pose." Since we know there are indeed free mages in the world not governed by the Chantry or its templars, I don't see why it'd be wrong for the mages of the Circles to be given their independence. Even the ruler of Ferelden supports this when it's requested by the Hero of Ferelden.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Here's what we know about the Dalish. Not what we pretend.



Dalish clans have 1-2 mages. No more than that. What they do with the others that have the gift. We have no idea. ie: What happened to all the others after Lanya wins the spot to be the apprentice. For all we know, they went ahead and killed them all to keep the possibility of mages going wild as low as possible.



Then we have actual Dalish mages we've met. Zathrian. Like many people in this world, he's not black or white. But, he's definitely got power. And he used it to curse countless humans to a life of lycanthropy. Far more than those who originally angered him. In fact, keeping this curse going was feeding him immortal life. Yea, sounds like a paragon of virtue there.



Then we have Velanna who's killing people fairly indiscriminately out of anger for her sister's kidnapping/capture.



Regardless of one's views on the morality of either, neither of them seems any more responsible or good or righteous or whatever other positive adjective you can think of than a typical human.



And yet, all these arguments that somehow the Danish are just better as a group of people than humanity. I find that silly.



And so, no. I don't think one can "conclude" that the Dalish are just "fine" with their mages.

[Riona45]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Dalish clans have 1-2 mages. No more than that. What they do with the others that have the gift. We have no idea. ie: What happened to all the others after Lanya wins the spot to be the apprentice. For all we know, they went ahead and killed them all to keep the possibility of mages going wild as low as possible.

Now you're just making stuff up.

And yet, all these arguments that somehow the Danish are just better as a group of people than humanity. I find that silly.
 

Um, no, no one argued that.

[LobselVith8]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Here's what we know about the Dalish. Not what we pretend.

Dalish clans have 1-2 mages. No more than that. What they do with the others that have the gift. We have no idea. ie: What happened to all the others after Lanya wins the spot to be the apprentice. For all we know, they went ahead and killed them all to keep the possibility of mages going wild as low as possible. 

Wrong. We know Lanaya comments that the other contenders for First came to respect her in time. We know Aneirin is a mage with the Dalish. We know another Circle mage fled to the Dalish from Witch Hunt.

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Then we have actual Dalish mages we've met. Zathrian. Like many people in this world, he's not black or white. But, he's definitely got power. And he used it to curse countless humans to a life of lycanthropy. Far more than those who originally angered him. In fact, keeping this curse going was feeding him immortal life. Yea, sounds like a paragon of virtue there.

You left out that they killed his son and raped his daughter. Hardly a man who was thinking straight at the time.

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Then we have Velanna who's killing people fairly indiscriminately out of anger for her sister's kidnapping/capture.

Regardless of one's views on the morality of either, neither of them seems any more responsible or good or righteous or whatever other positive adjective you can think of than a typical human.

And yet, all these arguments that somehow the Danish are just better as a group of people than humanity. I find that silly.

And so, no. I don't think one can "conclude" that the Dalish are just "fine" with their mages.

Last time I checked, they didn't have a sea of abominations being created like the Circle Tower did, so I don't see how they're worse than the Chantry controlled Circle with its templars who weren't able to defeat Pride Demon Uldred and his abominations.

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

So that still doesn't mean that the people of Fereldan would agree. Theres another convo at Ostagar where two soliders are talking about how the blight is probably the makers punishment for letting mages live. Even if the Chantry decided to stop preaching intolerence how will that stop the angry mob of townsfolk who want to burn the mages at the stake.

People also get angry because of a new elven Bann and either kill Shianni or cause trouble for the elven Warden who is the new Bann (the Epilogues are bugged - ejoslin has fixed them in her mods I believe). Is that a reason to deny mages basic rights?

[Riona45]

The Water God wrote...
So that still doesn't mean that the people of Fereldan would agree.

Who cares?  Most people of Ferelden don't think elves are really people, either.

[marshalleck]

The Water God wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

The Tower not only protects the rest of Fereldan from mages but also protects the mages from the rest of Fereldan. If all the mages just decided to walk out of the tower today they would be torn apart from the crowds of people who hate mages themselves. If all of a sudden the Knight Commanders of the Chantry decided that the maker was cool with blood mages and just released them upon the world, there would be a major outcry from the rest of the nation. The mages need the circle at the moment, the average Fereldan citizen is far to intolerant.

Wynne even says herself "For every mage in the circle tower, theres another torn apart in a crowd somewhere."

Because the Chantry preaches hatred and intolerance of mages. Look at how Greagoir refers to mages as "cursed" in the opening of the Magi Origin, how Keli thinks all mages are cursed because of her Andrastian views, and Lily's comments about how Initiates are warned about the dangers "those cursed with magic pose." Since we know there are indeed free mages in the world not governed by the Chantry or its templars, I don't see why it'd be wrong for the mages of the Circles to be given their independence. Even the ruler of Ferelden supports this when it's requested by the Hero of Ferelden.

So that still doesn't mean that the people of Fereldan would agree. Theres another convo at Ostagar where two soliders are talking about how the blight is probably the makers punishment for letting mages live. Even if the Chantry decided to stop preaching intolerence how will that stop the angry mob of townsfolk who want to burn the mages at the stake.

A mob of villagers wouldn't be much of a match for a fortress full of independent mages protecting their own interests. 

Just to reiterate in case I haven't made myself clear: I don't think the Circles should be completely abandoned and broken up. I do think mages should be able to handle their own affairs, and should not be locked away from the world (read: they should be allowed communication/visitation with family and loved ones) if that is their wish. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 février 2011 - 07:04 .

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Riona45 wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Dalish clans have 1-2 mages. No more than that. What they do with the others that have the gift. We have no idea. ie: What happened to all the others after Lanya wins the spot to be the apprentice. For all we know, they went ahead and killed them all to keep the possibility of mages going wild as low as possible.

Now you're just making stuff up.

We can always argue the Wiki is wrong. As one who hasn't read every single codex entry personally, I can't really say one way or another, but the  Wiki is fairly clear that Dalish clans only have one to two trained mages. 

As far as the other post by (gaaaaaah, these forums and their not showing you the posts in the thread you're posting in..aaaaaarg) concerning justification for Zathrian. I clearly stated he went far beyond just taking revenge for his family. It's been lifetimes since that happened and he was still going on. You might believe it was still about revenge at that point, but I like to think it was about immortality and that he was only telling himself it was about revenge because most of us don't appreciate looking into the mirror and realizing we're monsters.

And we have absolutely no idea how many abominations have been made in Dalish clans. None. Zip. No idea.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 19 février 2011 - 07:03 .

[Riona45]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Dalish clans have 1-2 mages. No more than that. What they do with the others that have the gift. We have no idea. ie: What happened to all the others after Lanya wins the spot to be the apprentice. For all we know, they went ahead and killed them all to keep the possibility of mages going wild as low as possible.

Now you're just making stuff up.

We can always argue the Wiki is wrong. As one who hasn't read every single codex entry personally, I can't really say one way or another, but the  Wiki is fairly clear that Dalish clans only have one to two trained mages. 

And I'm pretty sure that if the elves slaughtered mages who didn't make the cut as Keeper, we would have heard about it, hence my comment.

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The Water God wrote...
So that still doesn't mean that the people of Fereldan would agree.

Who cares?  Most people of Ferelden don't think elves are really people, either.

And now they are forced to live in alienages.

Their religion was also made illegal, so I don't see how that makes it any more right than the subjugation of an entire group of people.

[LobselVith8]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

We can always argue the Wiki is wrong. As one who hasn't read every single codex entry personally, I can't really say one way or another, but the  Wiki is fairly clear that Dalish clans only have one to two trained mages. 

Aneirin the Healer, the escaped Circle mage from Witch Hunt, so... yes, we can say mages aren't killed in the clans if we have more than two. Even Velanna comments that the staff intended for her will be given to another mage she's familiar with in the clan.

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

As far as the other post by (gaaaaaah, these forums and their not showing you the posts in the thread you're posting in..aaaaaarg) concerning justification for Zathrian. I clearly stated he went far beyond just taking revenge for his family. It's been lifetimes since that happened and he was still going on. You might believe it was still about revenge at that point, but I like to think it was about immortality and that he was only telling himself it was about revenge because most of us don't appreciate looking into the mirror and realizing we're monsters.

And we have absolutely no idea how many abominations have been made in Dalish clans. None. Zip. No idea.

That's the reason why the Warden can help him come to terms with the memories of his brutalized son and his  daughter who committed suicide because she was violated. The fact that it's all a matter of coming to terms with what happened to them shows it isn't about immortality at all. When the Warden helps him deal with the hatred he explicitly refers to, he gives up his life to end the curse.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

marshalleck wrote...

The Water God wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

The Tower not only protects the rest of Fereldan from mages but also protects the mages from the rest of Fereldan. If all the mages just decided to walk out of the tower today they would be torn apart from the crowds of people who hate mages themselves. If all of a sudden the Knight Commanders of the Chantry decided that the maker was cool with blood mages and just released them upon the world, there would be a major outcry from the rest of the nation. The mages need the circle at the moment, the average Fereldan citizen is far to intolerant.

Wynne even says herself "For every mage in the circle tower, theres another torn apart in a crowd somewhere."

Because the Chantry preaches hatred and intolerance of mages. Look at how Greagoir refers to mages as "cursed" in the opening of the Magi Origin, how Keli thinks all mages are cursed because of her Andrastian views, and Lily's comments about how Initiates are warned about the dangers "those cursed with magic pose." Since we know there are indeed free mages in the world not governed by the Chantry or its templars, I don't see why it'd be wrong for the mages of the Circles to be given their independence. Even the ruler of Ferelden supports this when it's requested by the Hero of Ferelden.

So that still doesn't mean that the people of Fereldan would agree. Theres another convo at Ostagar where two soliders are talking about how the blight is probably the makers punishment for letting mages live. Even if the Chantry decided to stop preaching intolerence how will that stop the angry mob of townsfolk who want to burn the mages at the stake.

A mob of villagers wouldn't be much of a match for a fortress full of independent mages protecting their own interests. 

Just to reiterate in case I haven't made myself clear: I don't think the Circles should be completely abandoned and broken up. I do think mages should be able to handle their own affairs, and should not be locked away from the world (read: they should be allowed communication/visitation with family and loved ones) if that is their wish. 

I agree 100%. Sorry a mental lapse on my part...i misunderstood your original posts

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's the reason why the Warden can help him come to terms with the memories of his brutalized son and his  daughter who committed suicide because she was violated. The fact that it's all a matter of coming to terms with what happened to them shows it isn't about immortality at all. When the Warden helps him deal with the hatred he explicitly refers to, he gives up his life to end the curse.

I suppose I'm a cynic than, as I simply saw it as his coming to terms with what a monstor he'd become and that his immortality wasn't actually worth the price others were paying. Unlike you, I believe he only clung to his family as an excuse to keep himself from that realization. One you help with.

But, as someone else said much earlier in this thread, it's obvious no one is going to change anyone else's opinions here, so let's just call it a night.

[LobselVith8]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's the reason why the Warden can help him come to terms with the memories of his brutalized son and his  daughter who committed suicide because she was violated. The fact that it's all a matter of coming to terms with what happened to them shows it isn't about immortality at all. When the Warden helps him deal with the hatred he explicitly refers to, he gives up his life to end the curse.

I suppose I'm a cynic than, as I simply saw it as his coming to terms with what a monstor he'd become and that his immortality wasn't actually worth the price others were paying. Unlike you, I believe he only clung to his family as an excuse to keep himself from that realization. One you help with.

But, as someone else said much earlier in this thread, it's obvious no one is going to change anyone else's opinions here, so let's just call it a night.

If he's spared, his Epilogue confirms it's all a matter of his inability to forgive humanity for what was done to his family.

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Their religion was also made illegal, so I don't see how that makes it any more right than the subjugation of an entire group of people.

The intolerence in Fereldan doesn't help to break the bonds of those mages. Just as the intolerence of elves doesn't help to ease the restrictions of the alienage. Before they can change laws they have to change the people.

You clearly aren't familar with civil rights movement of the United States, then. They didn't wait for the people, they fought for their rights.

[Maderas_]

It's impossible for an entity as large as the Chantry to be comprised completely of "evil" people, obviously. You have to look at the goals of the organization as a whole. To me they seem more interested in politics than spiritual endeavours, and a lot of what they've done is far too questionable for me to support them. Even if you want to believe that they think they're acting with everybody's best interests in mind, there's an old adage about why it's pointless to sacrifice your humanity in an attempt to protect it. That applies doubly so for religious instutitions.

Not to mention the Chantry uses that religion to push their own agenda. At best they put a new spin on a deity people already worshipped (The Maker) in order to accomplish this, and at worst they just made up the idea of The Maker entirely. The lore isn't very specific about whether or not the idea of The Maker originated with Andraste, so it's hard to tell which is more plausible.

[DalishRanger]

I think the Chantry is full of well-intentioned and some genuinely good people. But its structure and size make it ripe for corruption like... Well, pretty much any organization of its power, religious or not. It certainly makes them more realistic and interesting than if they were perfectly good or completely evil.

[Riona45]

The Water God wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You clearly aren't familar with civil rights movement of the United States, then. They didn't wait for the people, they fought for their rights.

You obiviousley aren't familiar with the civil rights movement. MLK fought for black rights through non violent protest and speeches. He never once lashed out and attacked a white man or suggested that blacks should go out and rebel against whites. Protesters in the civil rights movement would even refuse to fight back when white people literally beat the living hell out of them.

I don't think LobselVith8 was using the expression "fought for their rights" to imply that they literally used violence.  It was about not being passive.

[Riona45]

The Water God wrote...
Infact one ending between anora and the elves involves Anora giving the elves more freedom. But after awhile they start a food riot and it causes Anora to come down hard on the elves, which leads to more distrust between the elves and humans. If they had just tried to get people accept them instead of rioting over food do you think they would still keep their rights?

The way you say that kind of implies that the elves just started a riot for fun, and it had nothing to do with the oppression they live under (and giving them some more freedom wouldn't change that).