244 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The templars in awakenings who try to kill you if you break into the house where anders suspects his phylactery. They don't actually 'do' evil because I kill them first, but if they for example succeeded killing the Commander of the Grey and Hero of Ferelden and his group, then the Mother would probably win and destroy Amaranthine and Vigil keep.

Those Templars aren't after you - they're trying to capture Anders, a known mage who has escaped many times from the Chantry, and who they feel is potentially dangerous.  Which is their job.  You're collateral damage.   Is that wrong?  Yes, he was conscripted.  However, the Chantry answers neither to the Grey Wardens, nor to the ruler of Ferelden.  So, wrong, yes, but evil?  I don't think so.

.

Well evil doesn't exist then, only 'wrong'. Even demons are probably not evil, just misguided spirits ... at least to your definition.

Anyway, I find 'wrong' that people like that play the moral world police.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags, saying something is wrong is not the same as calling them evil. Supporting the invasion of Ferelden, allegedly sending Templars to Dales to force conversion, and making the elven religion illegal would be issues I would address as wrong. That doesn't mean I think the Chantry is evil.

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The templars in awakenings who try to kill you if you break into the house where anders suspects his phylactery. They don't actually 'do' evil because I kill them first, but if they for example succeeded killing the Commander of the Grey and Hero of Ferelden and his group, then the Mother would probably win and destroy Amaranthine and Vigil keep.

Those Templars aren't after you - they're trying to capture Anders, a known mage who has escaped many times from the Chantry, and who they feel is potentially dangerous.  Which is their job.  You're collateral damage.   Is that wrong?  Yes, he was conscripted.  However, the Chantry answers neither to the Grey Wardens, nor to the ruler of Ferelden.  So, wrong, yes, but evil?  I don't think so.

.

Well evil doesn't exist then, only 'wrong'. Even demons are probably not evil, just misguided spirits ... at least to your definition.

Anyway, I find 'wrong' that people like that play the moral world police.

Well, here's why I question if it's "evil":

1.  They don't go hunt you down.  You actively break into their warehouse in an attempt to steal.
2.  They (I'm pretty sure) give you the option to turn over Anders and leave - they don't immediately attack, IIRC.
3.  Only when you annouce that you'ree not leaving with Anders and his phylactery - they're preperty, you remember - do they attack.

IMO, "evil" would have been hunting down Anders, and callously killing anyone who happened to be standing around as well.

However, I'll accept this as an "evil" act for the moment, and ask this - is it this one action by one small group of people that makes the Chantry as a whole evil?

[LobselVith8]

As a Warden, Anders is legally outside Chantry control, per David Gaider. They have no legal right over a Warden Mage nor to try to murder the Warden-Commander for refusing to hand Anders over for going into a building in the Warden's arling.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags, saying something is wrong is not the same as calling them evil. Supporting the invasion of Ferelden, allegedly sending Templars to Dales to force conversion, and making the elven religion illegal would be issues I would address as wrong. That doesn't mean I think the Chantry is evil.

I agree, "wrong" and "evil" are not the same.

Wrong actions can be taken by a person or organization without making them evil.

But the thread topic is, whether the chantry is evil.  I'm arguing that the Chantry is not evil.  Some of the things they do are things that some people may consider wrong.  But that doesn't make them evil.

[Gethrian]

I don't think the Chantry's really evil but it does do things that not everyone agree with

[HopHazzard]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As a Warden, Anders is legally outside Chantry control, per David Gaider. They have no legal right over a Warden Mage nor to try to murder the Warden-Commander for refusing to hand Anders over for going into a building in the Warden's arling.

This goes to my major problem. The scope of the chantry's power seems to go way beyond spriritual matters. And the templars seem to consider themselves above the law.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As a Warden, Anders is legally outside Chantry control, per David Gaider. They have no legal right over a Warden Mage nor to try to murder the Warden-Commander for refusing to hand Anders over for going into a building in the Warden's arling.

Well, is breaking and entering with intent to commit larceny not a crime any more?

I'll tell you this, if the President of the United States breaks into my house at night to steal something, I'm going to shoot the guy.

Arresting a thief, and his accomplices, is not something I'd consider evil.  Nor is killing them when they resist arrest.

Now, if the Arl of Amaranthine showed up in daylight, with an order to turn it over, that might be different.  He still may not have the authority to do that - as Grey Wardens are outside of Chantry jurisdiction, I'm sure the Chantry is outside Grey Warden or Ferelden jurisdiction - but it would at least no longer justify an attack.

[AlexXIV]

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The templars in awakenings who try to kill you if you break into the house where anders suspects his phylactery. They don't actually 'do' evil because I kill them first, but if they for example succeeded killing the Commander of the Grey and Hero of Ferelden and his group, then the Mother would probably win and destroy Amaranthine and Vigil keep.

Those Templars aren't after you - they're trying to capture Anders, a known mage who has escaped many times from the Chantry, and who they feel is potentially dangerous.  Which is their job.  You're collateral damage.   Is that wrong?  Yes, he was conscripted.  However, the Chantry answers neither to the Grey Wardens, nor to the ruler of Ferelden.  So, wrong, yes, but evil?  I don't think so.

.

Well evil doesn't exist then, only 'wrong'. Even demons are probably not evil, just misguided spirits ... at least to your definition.

Anyway, I find 'wrong' that people like that play the moral world police.

Well, here's why I question if it's "evil":

1.  They don't go hunt you down.  You actively break into their warehouse in an attempt to steal.
2.  They (I'm pretty sure) give you the option to turn over Anders and leave - they don't immediately attack, IIRC.
3.  Only when you annouce that you'ree not leaving with Anders and his phylactery - they're preperty, you remember - do they attack.

IMO, "evil" would have been hunting down Anders, and callously killing anyone who happened to be standing around as well.

However, I'll accept this as an "evil" act for the moment, and ask this - is it this one action by one small group of people that makes the Chantry as a whole evil?

1. They set a trap for you. I don't see how laying traps is different from hunting people. It is just a different method.
2. It's not much of an option if they are going to kill you if you don't. So if I put a gun at your head and tell you to give me all your money it's not evil?
3. It's not their property and they don't even ask for the phylactery. They want Anders, But he belongs to the Wardens now so they ask for the Warden's 'property'.

They act against the law and against the treaties with the Wardens and they would be willing to doom the whole region to be overrun by the darkspawn for their revenge on a mage who tricked them. Not to mention they would kill the Hero of Ferelden, the person who stopped the Blight. If they don't owe him or her for that then they are not only evil, but also dishonorable. They are not any better than the demons they are supposed to keep out of the world.

[Ziggeh]

Xewaka wrote...

Like any example you can think of an organized, continent spanning religion, the chantry has in it the same variety in people that there is outside. They have those who pay lip service, those who truly believe, those who willfully give themselves to the community, those who try to get away with as little work as they can do, corrupt leaders and not-so-bad leaders, jerks, nice people...

Thought this was worth quoting.

As I see it, most of the organisations and situations in thedas are written with complexity in mind, there are exceptions, the blight, demons, but these really stand as contrasts around which other groups revolve. I see their very purpose as to not be wholey one thing or the other, but to contain multiple elements and perspectives in order to allow each individual player and character to derive something different.

Their value is in complexity, and I find it incredibly bizarre that people would seek to view them in simplistic terms, to reduce them.

[AlexXIV]

Oh and aside from good and evil I do believe no religion should be enforced with weapons. That's just wrong. If they can't convince people with words or good deeds they should bugger off and leave them alone.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

SnowHeart1 wrote...

PinkShoes wrote...

religoins arent evil, people are.

Funny; I would say almost exactly the opposite. Religions can be used for great evil, but many people of faith are of good intent. The Chantry is a case-in-point. I think it is evil. I think it is an oppressive, theocratic, racist and militaristic order that happily discriminates against and enslaves groups of people (mages and elves). That said, some people drawn to the Chantry focus on the positive things it does, such as providing food and shelter to refugees, etc. Others are ready to kill you if you show so much as a scintilla of magical aptitude because, clearly, if you were born a certain way that is different, you are an inferior being that needs to be put in its place and/or culled.

People disagree; that's fine. I'm not looking for "converts" here. But if I wanted to play a truly evil character in Thedas, I'd play a Chantry-loving bastard.

this is quite sad.....if you listen to the teachings they seem to promote understanding and restraint...the principles that they are suppossed to live by are good teachings in the  most part...it is just people misinterpreting or bending those principles to there own ends that makes the people bad....not the religion...

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Chantry is awesome. Mages are abominations waiting to happen.

Odd how the abominations have a tendency of happening as a direct result of the Chantry and its templars when we examine the Abomination codex, the Rite of Anulment codex, and A Broken Circle.

The Water God wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You were making a poor point, Water. You brush off a great deal of history in your retort to me and ignore the basic message of my post to prop your "argument." Also, your example with Anora and the elves ignores how Alistair can give them representation at the royal court without a riot.

You don't seem to recognize that freeing the mages isn't as simple as killing off a few templars and then walking out of the tower. That would just make things worse. Which somehow you completely missed in my point.

I didn't miss your point. You lacked a coherent point to begin with. If mages want freedom, then they should be active in gaining that freedom. The civil rights movement transpired because different people set about to gain rights for themselves and not simply accept the inequality of the law. Many different people went about in a myraid of ways, and you ignored many of them to focus on only MLK.

Also, you make it seem as if mages fighting a revolution would be wrong and misguided, but mages fighting for their rights would be no different than Andraste and Shartan fighting to emancipate themselves from the Tevinter Imperium.

The Water God wrote...

Also how does your point about alistair have anything to do with how the elves lossed their rights by rioting?

Because Anora did nothing but lift a few restrictions, while Alistair gave them a voice in the court and made a sudden, irrevocable change in their lives despite the controversy it caused by casting aside the status quo and making an irrevocable change for the elves of the Alienage.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 février 2011 - 07:04 .

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TJPags wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

The templars in awakenings who try to kill you if you break into the house where anders suspects his phylactery. They don't actually 'do' evil because I kill them first, but if they for example succeeded killing the Commander of the Grey and Hero of Ferelden and his group, then the Mother would probably win and destroy Amaranthine and Vigil keep.

Those Templars aren't after you - they're trying to capture Anders, a known mage who has escaped many times from the Chantry, and who they feel is potentially dangerous.  Which is their job.  You're collateral damage.   Is that wrong?  Yes, he was conscripted.  However, the Chantry answers neither to the Grey Wardens, nor to the ruler of Ferelden.  So, wrong, yes, but evil?  I don't think so.

.

Well evil doesn't exist then, only 'wrong'. Even demons are probably not evil, just misguided spirits ... at least to your definition.

Anyway, I find 'wrong' that people like that play the moral world police.

Well, here's why I question if it's "evil":

1.  They don't go hunt you down.  You actively break into their warehouse in an attempt to steal.
2.  They (I'm pretty sure) give you the option to turn over Anders and leave - they don't immediately attack, IIRC.
3.  Only when you annouce that you'ree not leaving with Anders and his phylactery - they're preperty, you remember - do they attack.

IMO, "evil" would have been hunting down Anders, and callously killing anyone who happened to be standing around as well.

However, I'll accept this as an "evil" act for the moment, and ask this - is it this one action by one small group of people that makes the Chantry as a whole evil?

1. They set a trap for you. I don't see how laying traps is different from hunting people. It is just a different method.
2. It's not much of an option if they are going to kill you if you don't. So if I put a gun at your head and tell you to give me all your money it's not evil?
3. It's not their property and they don't even ask for the phylactery. They want Anders, But he belongs to the Wardens now so they ask for the Warden's 'property'.

They act against the law and against the treaties with the Wardens and they would be willing to doom the whole region to be overrun by the darkspawn for their revenge on a mage who tricked them. Not to mention they would kill the Hero of Ferelden, the person who stopped the Blight. If they don't owe him or her for that then they are not only evil, but also dishonorable. They are not any better than the demons they are supposed to keep out of the world.

1.  They set a trap for Anders, by telling his "spy" where the phylactery is - it's not actually there.  They wanted legal justification for arresting him, and when he broke into their warehouse with the intent to commit theft, they got it.  It's just like an undercover cop posing as a prostitute - if you take the bait, you broke the law.

2.  It is an option - let us arrest the criminal, and we'll forget that YOU'RE a criminal too.  Now, I don't take it either, nor do I let them arrest me.  I don't let Cauthrien arrest me after I break into Howe's house and kill him, either.  Doesn't mean I didn't commit a criminal act.

3.  The phylactery is, actually, Chantry property.  How do you dispute this?

4.  So, we should let a criminal go free because he did something good once?  How far do we let that go?  If the Hero of Ferelden becomes a mass murderer, or a serial rapist, or a child molester, do we let all that go too?

We can debate this, but again, I'm even willing - for this discussion - to concede that these Templars were evil.  I ask again - does that make the entire Chantry evil?

[TJPags]

AlexXIV wrote...

Oh and aside from good and evil I do believe no religion should be enforced with weapons. That's just wrong. If they can't convince people with words or good deeds they should bugger off and leave them alone.

This I completely agree with.

Converting people at the point of a sword - or the barrel of a gun -  is absurd, IMO.

[Maelora]

-

Modifié par Maelora, 19 février 2011 - 06:15 .

[Maelora]

Seeing as they are based on Inquisition-era Xtianity, then yes, they're pretty much 'evil'. They're intolerant, hypocritical and murderous.

But some of them are better than their fellows. The head templar in Lothering at the start of DAO is trying to keep the civilians safe. The head priestess is basically only after donations.

The chantry in Denerim comes across as complete idiots. The ones at the Mage Tower are sadistic, perverted and cruel. The ones at Redcliffe sound as if they are trying their best to help the people. Brother Genitivi was a very nice, easy-going fellow. Brother Burkel was a nice guy... but he was creating an absolute ****storm in doing what he did.  Lots of different people in one monolithic organisation.

Leliana is very sweet, but they make it clear that her version of the religion is something she basically made up herself. And the others disliked her 'sunshine and rainbows' version.

At the end of the day, any religion is at its worst when it has political power.  When divorced from politics and centering on the spiritual, religion can be a force for good.

Modifié par Maelora, 19 février 2011 - 06:16 .

[Guywhoiam]

Good and evil are but points of view.



The Chantry believes they are doing a good thing, and to some they are, to some they aren't.



In the end, it's their intent that matters. So, their goal of keeping the world safe from mages is good, it's the method that sucks. Doesn't mean they're evil.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

1.  They set a trap for Anders, by telling his "spy" where the phylactery is - it's not actually there.  They wanted legal justification for arresting him, and when he broke into their warehouse with the intent to commit theft, they got it.  It's just like an undercover cop posing as a prostitute - if you take the bait, you broke the law.

2.  It is an option - let us arrest the criminal, and we'll forget that YOU'RE a criminal too.  Now, I don't take it either, nor do I let them arrest me.  I don't let Cauthrien arrest me after I break into Howe's house and kill him, either.  Doesn't mean I didn't commit a criminal act.

3.  The phylactery is, actually, Chantry property.  How do you dispute this?

4.  So, we should let a criminal go free because he did something good once?  How far do we let that go?  If the Hero of Ferelden becomes a mass murderer, or a serial rapist, or a child molester, do we let all that go too?

We can debate this, but again, I'm even willing - for this discussion - to concede that these Templars were evil.  I ask again - does that make the entire Chantry evil?

The Arl of Amaranthine isn't a criminal - this is his arling, and he has the right of high justice, not the Chantry. Rylock is defying the Right of Conscription of Anders in an attempt to capture Anders, who is legally outside her juristiction as a Grey Warden. The issue is that Rylock is criminal in her attempt to murder the de facto Arl of Amaranthine in his own arling.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 février 2011 - 06:28 .

[Lisa_H]

I think the Chantry has it good and bad traits. Many of the priests, monks and nuns we meet in the game seem to actually care about the poor, take care of orphans and such. Being the place of refuge for people fleeing the Blight. There are bad aspects as well. The Exalted Marsh agains Dales, even if it seems like the trigger to that was the elves not wanting to help during the second Blight, is one example. Keeping the mages looked away in a tower is also a thing that could be debated to be evil, but where I a person living in Thedas knowing that the mage next door could turn into a monster and slaughter my entire village I probably would agree with keeping the mages locked away. From what I have gathered the basic principles of the Chantry are about good values like compassion, peace and understanding, like most real-world religions. But people twist it and use it for their own ends. Both in our world and in Thedas

[SunnKingg]

TJPags wrote...


3.  The phylactery is, actually, Chantry property.  How do you dispute this?

The phylactery is filled with Anders'  blood, which was taken forcefully from him by the chantry. They have no claim over anders' blood. They may not be evil, but they are close when they use the mage's blood to track them down then condemn and execute the mage on just the suspicion of blood magic. The only person Anders' blood belongs to is Anders.

[AlexXIV]

Well the Chantry isn't evil, it is corrupted.

Phylacteries may be Chantry property but if my blood it is in them with which they can track me anywhere on the world I think I have a right to get it back. They can keep the empty phylactery for all I care. I think death penalty for breaking into a house is a bit harsh, and the only real 'crime' Anders ever commited was to be born a mage. He didn't even kill the templars, only the darkspawn who killed the templars.

If I had the option to go on trial for breaking into the house I'd have accepted it. But I didn't have that choice, did I? I had to chooose to hand over Anders or fight. So again, it was their trap, and they only left me with the choice to hand over one of my companions and Grey Wardens to a highly questionable group of people or defend him and myself.

It is just matter-of-factly that the Warden Commander was sent there to stop the Darkspawn and the templars have nothing better to do than trying to lay traps for one of my Grey Wardens instead of going out and dying in a honorable fight against darkspawn. I don't know how rape or murder comes into this, but as far as I know I only picked a lock. I see in the way you defend the Templars that you are blind and want to stay blind, and who am I to keep you? So I am done here wasting my time.

[ZeroDotZero]

I like the Chantry, but not the templars. The chantry do good, but their templar organisation opresses the mages. I like mages, I like Chantry. I do not like templars.