What is not excused is the one size fits all approach that the Resident Balance Gurus try to straight jacket everyone with.
Why have casters been nerfed?
Débuté par
G_Admiral_Thrawn
, févr. 19 2011 10:55
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#27
Posté 22 février 2011 - 11:05
manageri
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nicethugbert wrote...
OP is situational. You're over generalizing and not looking at the actual situation.
Lolzball - 2000d6 fire damage
Omgnoescone - 5d6 cold damage
Clearly Lolzball is totally balanced because in situations where enemies are immune to fire damage Omgnoescone is superior therefore balance is totally subjective and everything's fine.
It doesn't matter how great your char is in other areas, you still need to beat the monsters.
Situational.
There's not a single situation where losing to the monster is the way to go actually.
Too bad there isn't a DM in single player.
Irrelevant. Your PC's actions are very much constrained compared to DM'd games.
And? Therefore some builds/spells/whatever being more powerful isn't an issue?
So if he's got all the best spells memorized and those aren't enough then...the worse spells would be even more insufficient?
Situational.
Try out The Maimed God's Saga or Crimmor when it's released, for example.
If you're referring to spells being used in dialog in TMGS that doesn't invalidate balance concerns in any way whatsoever, what does it matter whether I'm casting stuff in dialog or in combat? Also, if the only way to make a spell worthwhile is to craft a special use for it in a specific conversation then you're admitting it's useless generally. I can make a mod that gives you 50 million gold if you picked skill focus survival, does that mean the best way to pick feats is to do it totally randomly and they're all balanced?
#28
Posté 22 février 2011 - 11:20
The Fred
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For balance, you should take into account non-combat as well as combat. That's how these things were designed, it's just that combat in most mods is a bigger issue, so the balance is *situational* based upon the mod. However, within combat, things should be balanced as I said. The thing is that balance depends on the mod as well as on the players. However, mod-makes shouldn't have to do stuff deliberately to try and balance their game, like putting in many fire-resistance monsters so that overpowered fire attacks aren't overpowered any more.
#29
Posté 22 février 2011 - 11:57
painofdungeoneternal
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nicethugbert wrote...
What is not excused is the one size fits all approach that the Resident Balance Gurus try to straight jacket everyone with.
No one is doing that.
However there is generally a consensus about things, if every DM, PW admin, module maker is listing how they nerfed the same spells, or has just banned them, or redone them, something is not right about those spells, classes, feats. One person saying something is just some nutcase, when you have a chorus of people saying the same thing it's a hint there is a reason. I always double check for a chorus, if there isn't one it's just my nutty opinion.
Haven't you noticed how many PW's ban certain spells, nerf this, or nerf that. They do that because balance was broken and they did a stop gap fix to prevent their players fleeing, often started as a demand by those players. To get it so every spell works together properly as part of a larger system is very involved, and takes a lot more than just throwing it all together like nothing relates to each other. This happens in PNP games via rules via the DM, in this game we need to program it. Remember each builder is not making just a spell or a class, he is making a world in which that is just one tiny part, with the goal of challenging those players.
I would much prefer a game which has some Wise people suggesting ways to make MORE things work together, than focusing on just one little tiny part of the entire system and complaining about how it's not matching some rule book. That wisdom comes from running a PW, making modules, or from years of running PNP games. Those are the balance gurus you are railing against, those are the people i ask a lot of questions because they actually add a lot of value, even then i make my own judgements, and get more than one opinion to make sure it's just not some nutty opinion held by just one person.
Note this is not just combat - it is a lot more than that - but unless you are the one making the dialogs, classes, scripts, areas, monsters, books, lore, rumors, npcs, dramatics - ALL OF IT has to work together as a system, to make a world in which the player can levelup and enjoy each level with whatever it has to offer and face challenges worthy of their attention, not too hard, not too easy, a good chance of dying, and if they are clever a good chance of success.
#30
Posté 22 février 2011 - 11:58
Arkalezth
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Thing is, generally you don't need to nerf combat power to be good at everything. Pure Wizard vs 1 Rogue/X Wizard for example. Power wise, they're basically the same, but the latter can be good at virtually everything.
I don't want to engage in another 10 page argument, but regarding spells in TMGS and the like: Yes, there's a spot where you can use the spell Detect Undead to solve a quest. Yes, nice role playing. However, that's the only time I've cast (memorized, even) that spell, in more than 2 years playing this game. So yes, it's technically situational, but let's focus on the remaining 99'99% of the game, where that spell is completely useless. In that quest, Detect Undead is the best Cleric spell in the game, but if you ask me, Divine Power is infinitely more powerful.
I don't want to engage in another 10 page argument, but regarding spells in TMGS and the like: Yes, there's a spot where you can use the spell Detect Undead to solve a quest. Yes, nice role playing. However, that's the only time I've cast (memorized, even) that spell, in more than 2 years playing this game. So yes, it's technically situational, but let's focus on the remaining 99'99% of the game, where that spell is completely useless. In that quest, Detect Undead is the best Cleric spell in the game, but if you ask me, Divine Power is infinitely more powerful.
#31
Posté 23 février 2011 - 12:11
nicethugbert
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[quote]manageri wrote...
[quote]nicethugbert wrote...
OP is situational. You're over generalizing and not looking at the actual situation.[/quote]
Lolzball - 2000d6 fire damage
Omgnoescone - 5d6 cold damage
Clearly Lolzball is totally balanced because in situations where enemies are immune to fire damage Omgnoescone is superior therefore balance is totally subjective and everything's fine.
[/quote]
Contrived.
[quote]manageri wrote...
[quote][quote]
It doesn't matter how great your char is in other areas, you still need to beat the monsters.
[/quote]
Situational.[/quote]
There's not a single situation where losing to the monster is the way to go actually.
[/quote]
Then, you've never played Half-life, or seen any Russian movies, etc.
[quote]manageri wrote...
[quote][quote]
Too bad there isn't a DM in single player.
[/quote]
Irrelevant. Your PC's actions are very much constrained compared to DM'd games.[/quote]
And? Therefore some builds/spells/whatever being more powerful isn't an issue?
[/quote]
Situational.
[quote]manageri wrote...
[quote][quote]
So if he's got all the best spells memorized and those aren't enough then...the worse spells would be even more insufficient?
[/quote]
Situational.
Try out The Maimed God's Saga or Crimmor when it's released, for example.
[/quote]
If you're referring to spells being used in dialog in TMGS that doesn't invalidate balance concerns in any way whatsoever, what does it matter whether I'm casting stuff in dialog or in combat? Also, if the only way to make a spell worthwhile is to craft a special use for it in a specific conversation then you're admitting it's useless generally. I can make a mod that gives you 50 million gold if you picked skill focus survival, does that mean the best way to pick feats is to do it totally randomly and they're all balanced?
[/quote]
Situational.
[quote]nicethugbert wrote...
OP is situational. You're over generalizing and not looking at the actual situation.[/quote]
Lolzball - 2000d6 fire damage
Omgnoescone - 5d6 cold damage
Clearly Lolzball is totally balanced because in situations where enemies are immune to fire damage Omgnoescone is superior therefore balance is totally subjective and everything's fine.
[/quote]
Contrived.
[quote]manageri wrote...
[quote][quote]
It doesn't matter how great your char is in other areas, you still need to beat the monsters.
[/quote]
Situational.[/quote]
There's not a single situation where losing to the monster is the way to go actually.
[/quote]
Then, you've never played Half-life, or seen any Russian movies, etc.
[quote]manageri wrote...
[quote][quote]
Too bad there isn't a DM in single player.
[/quote]
Irrelevant. Your PC's actions are very much constrained compared to DM'd games.[/quote]
And? Therefore some builds/spells/whatever being more powerful isn't an issue?
[/quote]
Situational.
[quote]manageri wrote...
[quote][quote]
So if he's got all the best spells memorized and those aren't enough then...the worse spells would be even more insufficient?
[/quote]
Situational.
Try out The Maimed God's Saga or Crimmor when it's released, for example.
[/quote]
If you're referring to spells being used in dialog in TMGS that doesn't invalidate balance concerns in any way whatsoever, what does it matter whether I'm casting stuff in dialog or in combat? Also, if the only way to make a spell worthwhile is to craft a special use for it in a specific conversation then you're admitting it's useless generally. I can make a mod that gives you 50 million gold if you picked skill focus survival, does that mean the best way to pick feats is to do it totally randomly and they're all balanced?
[/quote]
Situational.
#32
Posté 23 février 2011 - 12:38
manageri
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nicethugbert wrote...
Contrived.
So what? It's exactly what you're saying, the only difference is the scale. I could have made that 6d6 vs 5d6 and made the exact same point which is certainly within the limits of current spell imbalance (both in actual damage and relative power).
Then, you've never played Half-life, or seen any Russian movies, etc.
Except we're not talking about half-life. Are you like physically unable to admit you're ever wrong about ANYTHING, no matter how absurd it is?
Situational.
Yea keep repeating that word as if it answers a damn thing.
#33
Posté 23 février 2011 - 12:41
painofdungeoneternal
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nicethugbert, why don't you stop complaining about balance, and build a module where you actually have to do it?
You are a player, what the admins and other builders have to do to make sure the players have fun seems like something you just don't like as a term. If you were to pursue making a world, you'd find balance as much more important.
If you use the term "play testing", and making adjustments based on feedback from playtesters, i don't think you would complain. To me balanced is what happens after play testing, and with enough experience you can kind of short circuit the whole thing. I am working on "balanced" monsters to noobish dm's don't have to balance things, they can see a part of level 1 characters and know a CR 1 monster will give them a fair fight.
To make things equal makes it easier to be a dm since you don't have to think, you know ANY CR 1 monster is about the same as a level 1, and if the players are level 5 you can drop in some CR 5 monsters, and perhaps a boss who is CR 7 and know he will give the players a hard time, even though it might have almost no hit dice and a special ability that is a problem. That all is balancing, it's an art only a few people have unless they do a lot of play testing, and it's a lot more than just mathematics.
The same should be the true with spells, combat or situational. Toungues is pretty powerful, but it's only level 3 and of no use on most PWs, does not make it the wrong level. A DM has to make that call, with hopefully a consensus to agree if you can get it. When the initial builder gets it wrong you see it as a nerf. ( and even the pnp rule lawyers who do the books make mistakes, i much prefer those crusty dm's who've been doing it for years )
You are a player, what the admins and other builders have to do to make sure the players have fun seems like something you just don't like as a term. If you were to pursue making a world, you'd find balance as much more important.
If you use the term "play testing", and making adjustments based on feedback from playtesters, i don't think you would complain. To me balanced is what happens after play testing, and with enough experience you can kind of short circuit the whole thing. I am working on "balanced" monsters to noobish dm's don't have to balance things, they can see a part of level 1 characters and know a CR 1 monster will give them a fair fight.
To make things equal makes it easier to be a dm since you don't have to think, you know ANY CR 1 monster is about the same as a level 1, and if the players are level 5 you can drop in some CR 5 monsters, and perhaps a boss who is CR 7 and know he will give the players a hard time, even though it might have almost no hit dice and a special ability that is a problem. That all is balancing, it's an art only a few people have unless they do a lot of play testing, and it's a lot more than just mathematics.
The same should be the true with spells, combat or situational. Toungues is pretty powerful, but it's only level 3 and of no use on most PWs, does not make it the wrong level. A DM has to make that call, with hopefully a consensus to agree if you can get it. When the initial builder gets it wrong you see it as a nerf. ( and even the pnp rule lawyers who do the books make mistakes, i much prefer those crusty dm's who've been doing it for years )
#34
Posté 23 février 2011 - 12:46
nicethugbert
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painofdungeoneternal wrote...
The DM's i know are all about balance, and things like timestop make the game a lot smaller than it should be. From what happened in NWN1, where it was almost universally rewritten, banned or removed, i'd say not putting it in gives those DM's more time to focus on stories and adventures and not about fixing issues caused by players having too many POWAHZ.
And the people who did not remove it got to enjoy it without interfering with the people who did remove it. It was a personal decision. Had the BW Devs listened to the anti-time stop crowd, the people who like it would have been deprived of it because a modder can not code pause functions into the engine. Without the pause functions, then people who like turn based games would be totally out of luck. They wouldn't have a chance to even approximate turn based gaming.
Were the Resident Balance Gurus thinking of that when they were clamoring for the OEI Devs to not include Time Stop in NWN2? I doubt it, even though a good many of them would have liked turn based and knew they were not going to get it from the OEI Devs. Luckily, NWN2 inherited pause functions from NWN1. Unfortunatly, I suspect it did not inherit the better ones from later versions of NWN1 that the BW Devs included to make Time Stop more flexible, more PW friendly.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Most DM's seem to dislike the power gamer anyway, as it just makes their carefully built and solid adventures suddenly way too easy. Imbalanced mechanics is a headache for any DM. Note all the rules on PW's about not doing more than one class.
The personal preferences of most DM's are not gospel. That just drives players away. Note the variety of PWs and modules in NWN1.
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I agree its up to your preferences, which is why we have the vault. Note that reeron implemented it on the vault, nothing was removed, he just put in nwn1 code, icons and descriptions in. Go download it. It's your game.
Unless you are a DM or creator of modules, or admin of a PW - which you are not - balance is not something you need to regard. For the most part you just play where things are fun and don't really see the balancing that went into making your game play all about strategy. Yeah i get that you don't like others choosing what features to use or not use, but then those who build things are the ones who really should be the decision makers, and you are free to choose to play on their creations or not.
A game is a lot more than the sum of it's parts, its how it all works together. It is very easy to lose sight of this, and it's also easy to just focus on the negative of how i did not get feature x, when in fact you are gaining far more than you are losing. ( i have folks complaining about there being too many spells and classes at this point to choose from )
I actually listen to a lot of DM's who are the ones coming up with what players describe as Nerfs, since they are things that make being a DM harder ( and generally the playerbase votes and agrees on them ). Frankly if it comes down to a choice as to whether i make a DM or a player happy, i always side with the DM. ( a game with DMs and nerfs is far more fun than a game without either. )
As for the remark about monsters should use the unbalanced stuff, come visit my drow area and see what happens when the NPC's use actual player builds. Anytime you kill a boss i take your character, rename it and make it into a drow race, add in SR, and you might just end up fighting yourself. Make sure you bring a powerbuild because it's no place for the weak since there still seems to be a lot of sacred fist builds with 60 ab, 70+ AC, 18 attacks a round, divine damage on each hit, caster level 30 spells doing dispels, silence, and all the buffs, and doing HIPs.
We all have our freedoms. DMs are not infallible.
It's good that you have that feature in your PW. But, what does that have to do with module builders so often underpowering their monsters?
#35
Posté 23 février 2011 - 01:34
NWN DM
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The tone of about 80% of the posts in this 'debate' is a real downer.
It is extremely hard as a Builder and a DM to get everything "right". In these roles, your personal preferences are gospel for your work; without this there's no reason to waste your time.
Those complaining need to take up said mantles and devote their sparse time, effort and resources and do better since it is apparently so easy to accomplish.
It is extremely hard as a Builder and a DM to get everything "right". In these roles, your personal preferences are gospel for your work; without this there's no reason to waste your time.
Those complaining need to take up said mantles and devote their sparse time, effort and resources and do better since it is apparently so easy to accomplish.
#38
Posté 23 février 2011 - 09:05
MachinSin
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Hi to all,
The really wonderfull thing (that you all know) is that you can tweak your module as much as you want. Like low-magic and add food and water? So be it. Your taste is high-magic and epic spells? Go that direction.
It is not that difficult at all to create your own Time Stop or High Heaven's Destroying Punishment spell, the same as to create your own Create Water or Air Servant. Whatever Obsidian has enabled/disabled or not it does not matter really, even speaking in over/under powered terms (they remove Time Stop but add other unbalancing spells and feats, like any developer including Bioware).
The main thing in this discusion is that no-one has the real truth here, because we all know that this concept does not exist. But with NWN (1 and 2) you can materialize and offer your approach and see how many people and which kind of people you can gather around it: so if you have a vision, you have the tools to prove it valid; expecting that others change their vision for your own without doing nothing yourself is the big mistake here (whoever you choose as "others" and "you"),
MachinSin
The really wonderfull thing (that you all know) is that you can tweak your module as much as you want. Like low-magic and add food and water? So be it. Your taste is high-magic and epic spells? Go that direction.
It is not that difficult at all to create your own Time Stop or High Heaven's Destroying Punishment spell, the same as to create your own Create Water or Air Servant. Whatever Obsidian has enabled/disabled or not it does not matter really, even speaking in over/under powered terms (they remove Time Stop but add other unbalancing spells and feats, like any developer including Bioware).
The main thing in this discusion is that no-one has the real truth here, because we all know that this concept does not exist. But with NWN (1 and 2) you can materialize and offer your approach and see how many people and which kind of people you can gather around it: so if you have a vision, you have the tools to prove it valid; expecting that others change their vision for your own without doing nothing yourself is the big mistake here (whoever you choose as "others" and "you"),
MachinSin
Modifié par MachinSin, 23 février 2011 - 09:07 .
#39
Posté 24 février 2011 - 02:23
Rex Radar
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*** 'scuse the spelling as I am check dependant***
As far as power gaming goes, if most builders consider a feat, spell, weapon or class mix as almost manditory, then they are likely overpowered.
Therfore the way to combat this is to remove or modify those things that are considered "manditory". Problem is how do you do that without deviating from the DND core ideas of:
1) encouraging a mixed party of tanks, damage, healing.
2) keeping the traditional power shift (IMO a DnD tradition) for fighters (starting power leaders and weekfinishers), rogues (to quote NTB situational), and spellcasters (starting worse than the familuar and ending power monsters)
3) Maintaing the oppertunity to find unique class/feat/spell combo's. While some may be OP, it will be very difficult to prevent this from happening. This becomes exponetially difficult as awsome work like Keadrins is added.
Personally this does not effect me as much since I like the oddball mixes of AT-PM-BG or Bard-XXX or D-Wlk. I also think that while mages can be easily made OP they are not any worse than clearics. And really they are not that mush worse than the gear driven fighters.
Rogues in an undead dragon filled waste land on the otherhand...
As far as power gaming goes, if most builders consider a feat, spell, weapon or class mix as almost manditory, then they are likely overpowered.
Therfore the way to combat this is to remove or modify those things that are considered "manditory". Problem is how do you do that without deviating from the DND core ideas of:
1) encouraging a mixed party of tanks, damage, healing.
2) keeping the traditional power shift (IMO a DnD tradition) for fighters (starting power leaders and weekfinishers), rogues (to quote NTB situational), and spellcasters (starting worse than the familuar and ending power monsters)
3) Maintaing the oppertunity to find unique class/feat/spell combo's. While some may be OP, it will be very difficult to prevent this from happening. This becomes exponetially difficult as awsome work like Keadrins is added.
Personally this does not effect me as much since I like the oddball mixes of AT-PM-BG or Bard-XXX or D-Wlk. I also think that while mages can be easily made OP they are not any worse than clearics. And really they are not that mush worse than the gear driven fighters.
Rogues in an undead dragon filled waste land on the otherhand...
Modifié par Rex Radar, 24 février 2011 - 02:25 .
#40
Posté 24 février 2011 - 05:10
nicethugbert
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Rex Radar wrote...
....
Rogues in an undead dragon filled waste land on the otherhand...
Would be like James Bond.
#41
Posté 24 février 2011 - 02:02
avado
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WOW! Heated...
First, Time stop is not an uber spell. If you play PW you will most likely (90% or better) not have the chance to use it. How uber is a spell that cant be used? Not so. Infact, I have played since 2004 and have never seen or heard of it used (one chap did on a pw in 2004 and it lagged the server so bad it was removed - so I lied, but not by much).
Second, DM's LOVE power gamers! Seriously. IT is the guys that figure out the exploits that make the server better. A DM staff thinks like a dm staff. A power gamer thinks as one. While the DM thinks "I want to be fair", a power gamers ONLY thought is "How can I get the most power possible?" When you have one or 2 of those dudes around, you learn what is hard and what isnt really fast.
Case in point: the Mountain is where I had the most enjoyment. I learned ALOT from a power gamer called Stryder. The server claimed that it was a PARTY server. They meant that you NEEDED a party to go explore the areas, esp past lv 14 or so. Well, Stryder soloed the ENTIRE game. THen he taught me and I improved on what he did, and well.. scarry. He even one shot killed THE boss of the server, to the amazement of the entire dm staff and owner, who promptly made him immune to the spell effect that he used! WIthout power gamers, you never know how truly difficult your mod is. You may think that giving your dragon the ability to cast Heal 6 times when his HP are at 80% (or however it works) is UBER. Then you see the lone character smoke the dragon alone in 3 mins and the dragon never got one heal off.. WHY?
There are so many people who think they have "hard" mods. PLEEEAASSE!! There is no "hard" mod. THere is only a problem waiting for a power gamer to solve. NOW, if it is a power gamer who made the mod... THEN its a HARD mod! (Who is familiar with the Exalted sorc? Well that guy made a bunch of builds on that page, plus MANY others. He also did an area on the mountain, and believe you me, you did NOT want to go there. It was not fun, and I am a power gamer! He was just better than me
) When the baddies cast Silence on themselves and walk into you... ROUGH! (try it on casters. Works great and frustrates them like crazy. ALso the same trick to take out the Heal casting dragons!)
Now, can we get back to REAL issues, like WHY is the discussion of Time stop still going on? IGMS I can see (though it is easy to beat too).
First, Time stop is not an uber spell. If you play PW you will most likely (90% or better) not have the chance to use it. How uber is a spell that cant be used? Not so. Infact, I have played since 2004 and have never seen or heard of it used (one chap did on a pw in 2004 and it lagged the server so bad it was removed - so I lied, but not by much).
Second, DM's LOVE power gamers! Seriously. IT is the guys that figure out the exploits that make the server better. A DM staff thinks like a dm staff. A power gamer thinks as one. While the DM thinks "I want to be fair", a power gamers ONLY thought is "How can I get the most power possible?" When you have one or 2 of those dudes around, you learn what is hard and what isnt really fast.
Case in point: the Mountain is where I had the most enjoyment. I learned ALOT from a power gamer called Stryder. The server claimed that it was a PARTY server. They meant that you NEEDED a party to go explore the areas, esp past lv 14 or so. Well, Stryder soloed the ENTIRE game. THen he taught me and I improved on what he did, and well.. scarry. He even one shot killed THE boss of the server, to the amazement of the entire dm staff and owner, who promptly made him immune to the spell effect that he used! WIthout power gamers, you never know how truly difficult your mod is. You may think that giving your dragon the ability to cast Heal 6 times when his HP are at 80% (or however it works) is UBER. Then you see the lone character smoke the dragon alone in 3 mins and the dragon never got one heal off.. WHY?
There are so many people who think they have "hard" mods. PLEEEAASSE!! There is no "hard" mod. THere is only a problem waiting for a power gamer to solve. NOW, if it is a power gamer who made the mod... THEN its a HARD mod! (Who is familiar with the Exalted sorc? Well that guy made a bunch of builds on that page, plus MANY others. He also did an area on the mountain, and believe you me, you did NOT want to go there. It was not fun, and I am a power gamer! He was just better than me
) When the baddies cast Silence on themselves and walk into you... ROUGH! (try it on casters. Works great and frustrates them like crazy. ALso the same trick to take out the Heal casting dragons!)Now, can we get back to REAL issues, like WHY is the discussion of Time stop still going on? IGMS I can see (though it is easy to beat too).
#42
Posté 24 février 2011 - 03:07
kamal_
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You can't do that in NWN2. Silence is a hostile spell, so it can not be cast in a party member.avado wrote...
When the baddies cast Silence on themselves and walk into you... ROUGH! (try it on casters.
#43
Posté 24 février 2011 - 04:28
likeorasgod
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I remember doing something like this back when I was in HS playing TT. The DM was all set up for this epic battle with this bad Wizard and my Thief turnd to the the mage and said, "Hay cast silnece on me, I'll sneak up close to him invisible. He won't be able to yap his evil chap at us and ya'll just kill him from the distance. If you can't get him all killed like I'll just put a couple of daggers in his back."kamal_ wrote...
You can't do that in NWN2. Silence is a hostile spell, so it can not be cast in a party member.avado wrote...
When the baddies cast Silence on themselves and walk into you... ROUGH! (try it on casters.
Needless to say the DM had to think real fast about how to change his tatics that battle as the epic spells he was going to slaughter us with where almost all verbal componet.....of course dropping darkness on him allso probly wasn't nice.
That DM hated the combo of Zaris the Hand (Half-Elf) and his good budy the dwarf cleric and the clumsy toothpick mage.....we just used the other party members as cannon fober.
How I miss TT some times.
#44
Posté 24 février 2011 - 05:06
kevL
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glad you pointed that outkamal_ wrote...
You can't do that in NWN2. Silence is a hostile spell, so it can not be cast in a party member.
lum te dum dum, do de dat da .. fixed.
now i'm ready for those undead dragons ..!
And isn't that the point about Balance? Isn't that what really makes this game greater than any other out there? There are so many ways to play it; balance means one thing to a PW admin and his players; it means another to a SP hero; something else to a DM and his party, yet again to a DM who games on a LAN with a solo PC
Personally I like different classes to be unbalanced, because it lets me choose different 'challenge ratings' simply by playing a different race/ class. Has there yet been a mod build that balances this? well, good luck wit that cause I just got Kaedrin's merged (just have to recompile the invocation scripts with my changes)
katana!!!
#45
Posté 24 février 2011 - 05:50
Arkalezth
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That's a good point. Sometimes you just want to feel powerful.kevL wrote...
Personally I like different classes to be unbalanced, because it lets me choose different 'challenge ratings' simply by playing a different race/ class.
Though I kinda miss the "god mode" of Sorcerers in BG2.
Modifié par Arkalezth, 24 février 2011 - 05:52 .
#46
Posté 24 février 2011 - 07:33
manageri
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Arkalezth wrote...
That's a good point. Sometimes you just want to feel powerful.kevL wrote...
Personally I like different classes to be unbalanced, because it lets me choose different 'challenge ratings' simply by playing a different race/ class.
It's a horrible point, what kinda system makes people who like class X have to struggle harder on purpose? If you want to make things harder you can adjust your level or other stuff that's actually supposed to affect the balance.
#47
Posté 24 février 2011 - 07:52
Arkalezth
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Ok, I'll rephrase: it's a horrible point. I agree. Horrible from balance and maybe logic perspective. But, sometimes, I just want to feel powerful. Sometimes it's fun, that's my point. For the same reason that I sometimes want to cast spells, and sometimes don't.
I don't pick a bad class just to increase the challenge (though maybe others do), but you don't need to always pick the most powerful one. Maybe I know Clerics are very powerful, but have more fun with Rogues (let's not turn this into a Rogue vs Cleric debate, please, it's just an example). Shouldn't I ever play a Rogue, then?
I don't pick a bad class just to increase the challenge (though maybe others do), but you don't need to always pick the most powerful one. Maybe I know Clerics are very powerful, but have more fun with Rogues (let's not turn this into a Rogue vs Cleric debate, please, it's just an example). Shouldn't I ever play a Rogue, then?
Modifié par Arkalezth, 24 février 2011 - 07:55 .
#48
Posté 24 février 2011 - 08:08
nicethugbert
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Again! What kevL said. You make the module you want to make. You modify the module you want to play as you see fit. You do what you want. It's a game. Have fun. You hate all things divine? Them strip it out of your module. Create a theme and go for it. Life is not balanced. Nothing ever is. Balance is meaningless.
#49
Posté 24 février 2011 - 09:43
painofdungeoneternal
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From outside a single module, from all the things we have available, yes it's meaningless.
However balance inside a module is very important. The pw, admin, etc has to choose which ingredients go together right so the finished soup tastes good. Too much sugar, salt, or whatever leaves a poor taste. This analogy is key, a cook does the mixing, tasting and presents it. The player just eats it and says its good or bad, fun or boring and does not really care about the ingredients. The best tasting food is a mixture of contradictory ingredients and a good cook will use strong flavors in their preparation.
Sweetness is balanced with sour. This is not saying a sweet thing is not good, but it is far better to start with a stable foundation which is balanced if you intends on pushing everything one way. The result is all according to taste but good cooks know how to mix contradictory things together so they balance.
The more balanced a module is, it allows more ingredients to go together, and you can keep dropping things in until it starts having issues with balance. Higher levels require balancing, adding new features requires balancing -- ie adding a new spell which insta kills an opponent requires a counter spell, a feat to block it, a way to reflect it back on the caster, etc. You either ban a spell or come up with a way to counter/block/disrupt it that does not exist which balances it. Quite a few just remove classes, spells, feats because adding a balancing opposite feature can be very hard.
Balance example 1: I add languages so i add comprehend languages, toungues, and i also add a spell named babble to make it so you cannot be understood. I am looking at ways to make it so rogues can preserve their words from being heard by nosy wizards. ( All this so two players can discuss backstabbing another party member while they are in the same party, and give that party member a chance to overhear their discussion, this is being released shortly. ) Comprehension balances languages.
Balance example 2: I add dimension door to my module, and other related spells, baleful teleport, etc. To balance this i add dimensional anchor and flags to prevent it working. Anchor balances teleport. ( and is very interesting when dealing with summons too )
Balance example 3: To balance the fact you can over buff i add reciprocal gyre which damages you based on how many protective spells you have. If a player decides to be a buffball, he has to deal with this spell which uses his own defenses against him. I also limit how many AOE's you can cast to a number based on your concentration score ( limiting you to 4-8 or so ) which also helps the PW perform well. Gyre balances over buffing.
Balance example 4: The magic cap of spells is at +5 to coincide with the Fearun/D&D item cap of +5. I have a flag to allow adjusting this up or down as desired to MATCH whatever cap is desired for items. Raising it higher than the item cap makes casters better than melee-ers, and the opposite of having it lower makes casters weaker than melee. Items are important to balance, and this allows you to boost items to +8 and also boost caster to +8 if you desire in a balanced manner. This is spell bonuses balancing item bonuses.
Note that i do this over and over again, and i do not presume to say my work is balanced as their are infinite axis of balance in a game, i am just improving the balance as i go, and i as i add features they either balance out a existing opposite feature in the game, or i add them in pairs soas to ensure the current balance is not affected. As i get things more balanced i am able to add more things, more options, and more ways for players to have fun and require them to be more strategic in how they play.
I fix gust of wind so it removes just clouds, then i make fireballs so they catch grease on fire and destroying the grease after a few rounds, everything i remove, i add a correlating feature to do the original job. All of this requires wisdom and an understanding of ALL the rules an how they work together as a whole, and not just the perspective of a player.
By adding things which balance themselves out, and adding features which are missing in PNP which do the job of balancing a given feature, i ensure i can add more things and they stay in balance. Discussing balance is important to "builders" who want to ensure a game which works regardless of player choices. I agree it does not matter in SP, anymore than using cheat commands in SP is a problem. But each cook needs to careful mix all the ingredients so the result is not too sweet or sour, so the game does not favor casters, rogues or fighters unless the cook really does want to intentionally do that.
Balance is something you really have to be cook to understand, unless it is in relationship to the entire world or entire module or entire system it's has nothing to do with balance. And how my game is balanced will be completely different from any others creation, and d20 modern has different balance than D&D ( just imagine dropping a GI JOE special forces class with machine guns into existing D&D, beyond it being fun for the player choosing it, guns by definition are not balanced with the existing rules and would require a lot of rework. ).
Adding guns to NWN2 i would actually be excited by, but it would require a lot of work to make the rest of the game compatible, and i'd really probably have to lower their power to be much more like heavily enchanted crossbows or a week after adding that EVERY player would use a gun and no one would be using swords, if i followed how they really are only a few epic wizards/clerics would stand a chance against kobolds armed with uzi's. This is very much akin to how swords stopped being used in real wars, the soldiers learned that you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
( silence is changed in my codebase to allow it being cast on an area or a friendly or hostile, and there are numerous balance tweaks to ensure this does not get out of hand. But it works like in PNP )
However balance inside a module is very important. The pw, admin, etc has to choose which ingredients go together right so the finished soup tastes good. Too much sugar, salt, or whatever leaves a poor taste. This analogy is key, a cook does the mixing, tasting and presents it. The player just eats it and says its good or bad, fun or boring and does not really care about the ingredients. The best tasting food is a mixture of contradictory ingredients and a good cook will use strong flavors in their preparation.
Sweetness is balanced with sour. This is not saying a sweet thing is not good, but it is far better to start with a stable foundation which is balanced if you intends on pushing everything one way. The result is all according to taste but good cooks know how to mix contradictory things together so they balance.
The more balanced a module is, it allows more ingredients to go together, and you can keep dropping things in until it starts having issues with balance. Higher levels require balancing, adding new features requires balancing -- ie adding a new spell which insta kills an opponent requires a counter spell, a feat to block it, a way to reflect it back on the caster, etc. You either ban a spell or come up with a way to counter/block/disrupt it that does not exist which balances it. Quite a few just remove classes, spells, feats because adding a balancing opposite feature can be very hard.
Balance example 1: I add languages so i add comprehend languages, toungues, and i also add a spell named babble to make it so you cannot be understood. I am looking at ways to make it so rogues can preserve their words from being heard by nosy wizards. ( All this so two players can discuss backstabbing another party member while they are in the same party, and give that party member a chance to overhear their discussion, this is being released shortly. ) Comprehension balances languages.
Balance example 2: I add dimension door to my module, and other related spells, baleful teleport, etc. To balance this i add dimensional anchor and flags to prevent it working. Anchor balances teleport. ( and is very interesting when dealing with summons too )
Balance example 3: To balance the fact you can over buff i add reciprocal gyre which damages you based on how many protective spells you have. If a player decides to be a buffball, he has to deal with this spell which uses his own defenses against him. I also limit how many AOE's you can cast to a number based on your concentration score ( limiting you to 4-8 or so ) which also helps the PW perform well. Gyre balances over buffing.
Balance example 4: The magic cap of spells is at +5 to coincide with the Fearun/D&D item cap of +5. I have a flag to allow adjusting this up or down as desired to MATCH whatever cap is desired for items. Raising it higher than the item cap makes casters better than melee-ers, and the opposite of having it lower makes casters weaker than melee. Items are important to balance, and this allows you to boost items to +8 and also boost caster to +8 if you desire in a balanced manner. This is spell bonuses balancing item bonuses.
Note that i do this over and over again, and i do not presume to say my work is balanced as their are infinite axis of balance in a game, i am just improving the balance as i go, and i as i add features they either balance out a existing opposite feature in the game, or i add them in pairs soas to ensure the current balance is not affected. As i get things more balanced i am able to add more things, more options, and more ways for players to have fun and require them to be more strategic in how they play.
I fix gust of wind so it removes just clouds, then i make fireballs so they catch grease on fire and destroying the grease after a few rounds, everything i remove, i add a correlating feature to do the original job. All of this requires wisdom and an understanding of ALL the rules an how they work together as a whole, and not just the perspective of a player.
By adding things which balance themselves out, and adding features which are missing in PNP which do the job of balancing a given feature, i ensure i can add more things and they stay in balance. Discussing balance is important to "builders" who want to ensure a game which works regardless of player choices. I agree it does not matter in SP, anymore than using cheat commands in SP is a problem. But each cook needs to careful mix all the ingredients so the result is not too sweet or sour, so the game does not favor casters, rogues or fighters unless the cook really does want to intentionally do that.
Balance is something you really have to be cook to understand, unless it is in relationship to the entire world or entire module or entire system it's has nothing to do with balance. And how my game is balanced will be completely different from any others creation, and d20 modern has different balance than D&D ( just imagine dropping a GI JOE special forces class with machine guns into existing D&D, beyond it being fun for the player choosing it, guns by definition are not balanced with the existing rules and would require a lot of rework. ).
Adding guns to NWN2 i would actually be excited by, but it would require a lot of work to make the rest of the game compatible, and i'd really probably have to lower their power to be much more like heavily enchanted crossbows or a week after adding that EVERY player would use a gun and no one would be using swords, if i followed how they really are only a few epic wizards/clerics would stand a chance against kobolds armed with uzi's. This is very much akin to how swords stopped being used in real wars, the soldiers learned that you don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
( silence is changed in my codebase to allow it being cast on an area or a friendly or hostile, and there are numerous balance tweaks to ensure this does not get out of hand. But it works like in PNP )
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 24 février 2011 - 09:47 .
#50
Posté 25 février 2011 - 12:39
dunniteowl
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I'll just point out that what brianmeyer/painofdungeoneternal does is not balance in the sense that if some spells are available, other folks are automatically going to have the counters, no. The balancing is in providing both sides of the coin as is possible, but the overall outcome depends on how each player decides to outfit and equip themselves.
And while I understand what NTB doesn't actually directly say *(which, I believe is that: the developers shouldn't have arbitrarily *removed* spells like Time Stop or pulled/nerfed Feats, Spells, Skills, etc, but instead should have left them in and ABLE to be removed by the module makers) I don't fully agree in it wholesale.
That said, I do think a lot of things that could be done or that could have been done *differently* by the Devs should have revolved more around, "How much flexibility could we bring to the table," instead of, "How balanced do *we* think this is on the whole," kind of thinking when it came to pulling things out from NWN's code before applying it to NWN2.
Then again, we run into the issue of: How much does it cost to make it work in NWN2 while we're making it and of what use is it to Us, the Developers, for Our Story?
And believe me, I am not making excuses for things I think were mistakes of commission as well as mistakes of omission on the part of the Devs. I am simply attempting to see this from their perspective (as well as I might, not having been in the office during those discussions -- if ever they were had in some cases) as folks who, during the creation process, won't spend time and effort on something they didn't absolutely think was useful or critical (or unbalancing) to the story (module) they were making while creating the toolset and all the features and assets of the game as a whole.
And, in the end, even so, I thought Time Stop pretty much screwed the pooch in implementation in NWN when it got to the point where you could access it. I wonder, though, if keeping it and tweaking it (via script) could have been done for relatively little effort on the whole? There are plenty of things I don't like that are in NWN2 and there are plenty of things I am simply, "Meh," on in that regard as well. I am completely aware that much of that is my personal preference and the "Hip Hip Hooray" of that is I can choose to ignore them when I develop and create or when I simply play.
So in that regard, I can see where NTB is coming from. I don't necessarily easily follow the terse and sometimes non-descriptive style chosen to make the position. It's easier sometimes to be direct and slightly verbose to make clear a point. It certainly helps to contain the friction level, on the whole, to grease one's words a tad so as to make them smoother.
Lastly, while balance is important, in the end, balance is not always an Even Stephen keeping of the scales equal on both sides all the time. Sometimes it's making them sway and move nearly continuously (as nature tends to do) such that, over time, the balance is seen in amount of juxtaposition on a longer scale in a dynamic sense as opposed to any particular "snapshot" view of the situation.
In this sense, you can see the power of melee based units having a decided advantage initially in the game. In the end game portion casters and non-direct melee type characters take on greater prominence and possibly (at least they used to before that class Arms Race I referred to earlier) rise to pre-eminence in those later stages. At either end of the spectrum, if you take a "snapshot" view, it looks unbalanced. If you view it as a whole, all you're really seeing are the opposite sides of the scales moving to the point where that "balance" is achieved by being equally moved in opposite directions.
It's not the only way to "balance" things and "balance" isn't just a This Way or That Way kind of methodolgy. In the end, though, I don't think the OPs claim of nerfing casters is as factual as was made out to be. And the balance to the game *(from my attempt to obtain a perspective at the Developer's level or view) was not thrown off by the spells in question being excised from the game.
In going with pain's "cooking" reference: sometimes you lack an ingredient you normally use for a recipe and you just don't have it. So, then it's a choice, do you search your fridge, spice racks and pantry for something else, just throw in a few more things, change it up or leave it without it and see what happens? You sometimes have to just go with what you got and use an alternate to get that recipe done for dinner. Other times, you may choose to change it up on your own, just for the sake of experimentation and other times you make it more simple, choosing instead to just make do with what you have. And, in the long run, it all balances out.
dunniteowl
And while I understand what NTB doesn't actually directly say *(which, I believe is that: the developers shouldn't have arbitrarily *removed* spells like Time Stop or pulled/nerfed Feats, Spells, Skills, etc, but instead should have left them in and ABLE to be removed by the module makers) I don't fully agree in it wholesale.
That said, I do think a lot of things that could be done or that could have been done *differently* by the Devs should have revolved more around, "How much flexibility could we bring to the table," instead of, "How balanced do *we* think this is on the whole," kind of thinking when it came to pulling things out from NWN's code before applying it to NWN2.
Then again, we run into the issue of: How much does it cost to make it work in NWN2 while we're making it and of what use is it to Us, the Developers, for Our Story?
And believe me, I am not making excuses for things I think were mistakes of commission as well as mistakes of omission on the part of the Devs. I am simply attempting to see this from their perspective (as well as I might, not having been in the office during those discussions -- if ever they were had in some cases) as folks who, during the creation process, won't spend time and effort on something they didn't absolutely think was useful or critical (or unbalancing) to the story (module) they were making while creating the toolset and all the features and assets of the game as a whole.
And, in the end, even so, I thought Time Stop pretty much screwed the pooch in implementation in NWN when it got to the point where you could access it. I wonder, though, if keeping it and tweaking it (via script) could have been done for relatively little effort on the whole? There are plenty of things I don't like that are in NWN2 and there are plenty of things I am simply, "Meh," on in that regard as well. I am completely aware that much of that is my personal preference and the "Hip Hip Hooray" of that is I can choose to ignore them when I develop and create or when I simply play.
So in that regard, I can see where NTB is coming from. I don't necessarily easily follow the terse and sometimes non-descriptive style chosen to make the position. It's easier sometimes to be direct and slightly verbose to make clear a point. It certainly helps to contain the friction level, on the whole, to grease one's words a tad so as to make them smoother.
Lastly, while balance is important, in the end, balance is not always an Even Stephen keeping of the scales equal on both sides all the time. Sometimes it's making them sway and move nearly continuously (as nature tends to do) such that, over time, the balance is seen in amount of juxtaposition on a longer scale in a dynamic sense as opposed to any particular "snapshot" view of the situation.
In this sense, you can see the power of melee based units having a decided advantage initially in the game. In the end game portion casters and non-direct melee type characters take on greater prominence and possibly (at least they used to before that class Arms Race I referred to earlier) rise to pre-eminence in those later stages. At either end of the spectrum, if you take a "snapshot" view, it looks unbalanced. If you view it as a whole, all you're really seeing are the opposite sides of the scales moving to the point where that "balance" is achieved by being equally moved in opposite directions.
It's not the only way to "balance" things and "balance" isn't just a This Way or That Way kind of methodolgy. In the end, though, I don't think the OPs claim of nerfing casters is as factual as was made out to be. And the balance to the game *(from my attempt to obtain a perspective at the Developer's level or view) was not thrown off by the spells in question being excised from the game.
In going with pain's "cooking" reference: sometimes you lack an ingredient you normally use for a recipe and you just don't have it. So, then it's a choice, do you search your fridge, spice racks and pantry for something else, just throw in a few more things, change it up or leave it without it and see what happens? You sometimes have to just go with what you got and use an alternate to get that recipe done for dinner. Other times, you may choose to change it up on your own, just for the sake of experimentation and other times you make it more simple, choosing instead to just make do with what you have. And, in the long run, it all balances out.
dunniteowl
