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[Bourne Endeavor]

Il Divo wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

While it may have been a stretch. You had testimony from the dock worker, Saren having previously lied to the Council and Garrus' investigation insinuated there already existed suspicion Saren was up to something. Thus, it is not unfathomable they accept the MP3 file. Whereas in ME2, the Collector plan was impossible.

The dock-worker whom they previously disregarded for being 'traumatized', ergo we have no way to support the conclusion that Saren was lying and Garrus' investigation turned up nothing, which he himself says. A stretch is one thing, a leap of faith entirely another.

I also wouldn't call the Collector plan impossible. Incredibly difficult, yes but the Reapers were also put in a desperate situation. But between the Omega IV relay and the seeker swarms, I highly doubt Babli's anlysis that it would come down to the 'Alliance Fleet vs. one ship'.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So while the other evidence is totally dismissed, this evidence is irrefutable and they revoke his status on the spot without a hearing? Massive plot hole.

While undoubtedly the scene could have been portrayed significantly better, with forensic evidence and the like entering the fold. The idea I perceive BioWare intended was the combination of things against Saren was compiling enough. Furthermore, we can argue there is no evidence to suggest Tali would alter the file. This does not constitute a plot hole because the plot demanded finding evidence to proof Saren's involvement. This was accomplished, and there is nothing to disprove the voice recording. It certainly could have been written better, however it sufficed.

What were the Collectors going to use? They had a single ship in their arsenal with relatively poor defensive capabilities. An assault on Earth would require ships in the thousands or they would be decimated. The Seeker Swarms could not paralyze an enemy ship and the moment the Collectors approached the Traverse and would discovered a hostile threat, they again would be destroyed. The Omega 4 Relay is a base world, not a weapon. It is meant to conceal their activity in constructing a human reaper. (ugh...) For it to be completed, they must target Earth, and in doing so, would be crushed.

Mass Effect 2 offers absolutely nothing to remotely insinuate their plan has even the slight possibility of success.

[Eradyn]

...

*Facepalm*

I try to give Walters the benefit of the doubt...but this is just BAD.

Bioware, WHY are you letting go of Mass Effect? What's happened to the quality, the bar you'd set in ME1? Comics, the novels, DC-Direct, Oh-God-they're-making-a-movie-D;, poorly-designed merch...

It's like you guys have stopped caring. Is this EA? Are we going to have to start blaming EA again? I'm looking at these bulletpoints for the comic and this is just shamefully sloppy. ME's your baby and you're just throwing it all away like it's the red-headed step-child instead of one of your prized IPs. I just don't get it.

Modifié par Eradyn, 19 février 2011 - 11:38 .

[nevar00]

Oh cmon, why couldn't we have Drew K as lead writer and let Walters be in charge of the characters (if he wasn't already in ME1)? That would've been all fine and dandy. But no, Drew wanted to go play with Star Wars instead... I blame him! And the Turian Senator.



I have to say, this lack of details really just took away the confidence in a returning ME 2 squad I had installed in me thanks to this site. I still have hope for the game, but... I guess we'll have to see what happens to the comic.

[Whereto]

If this is the writing we are going to behold in mass effect 3, I don't think my Shepard will be carrying on his current mission. I'll give Mac the benefit of the doubt and hope mass effect has the most lore consistent and best story in the series

[Whatever42]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

While it may have been a stretch. You had testimony from the dock worker, Saren having previously lied to the Council and Garrus' investigation insinuated there already existed suspicion Saren was up to something. Thus, it is not unfathomable they accept the MP3 file. Whereas in ME2, the Collector plan was impossible.

The dock-worker whom they previously disregarded for being 'traumatized', ergo we have no way to support the conclusion that Saren was lying and Garrus' investigation turned up nothing, which he himself says. A stretch is one thing, a leap of faith entirely another.

I also wouldn't call the Collector plan impossible. Incredibly difficult, yes but the Reapers were also put in a desperate situation. But between the Omega IV relay and the seeker swarms, I highly doubt Babli's anlysis that it would come down to the 'Alliance Fleet vs. one ship'.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So while the other evidence is totally dismissed, this evidence is irrefutable and they revoke his status on the spot without a hearing? Massive plot hole.

While undoubtedly the scene could have been portrayed significantly better, with forensic evidence and the like entering the fold. The idea I perceive BioWare intended was the combination of things against Saren was compiling enough. Furthermore, we can argue there is no evidence to suggest Tali would alter the file. This does not constitute a plot hole because the plot demanded finding evidence to proof Saren's involvement. This was accomplished, and there is nothing to disprove the voice recording. It certainly could have been written better, however it sufficed.

What were the Collectors going to use? They had a single ship in their arsenal with relatively poor defensive capabilities. An assault on Earth would require ships in the thousands or they would be decimated. The Seeker Swarms could not paralyze an enemy ship and the moment the Collectors approached the Traverse and would discovered a hostile threat, they again would be destroyed. The Omega 4 Relay is a base world, not a weapon. It is meant to conceal their activity in constructing a human reaper. (ugh...) For it to be completed, they must target Earth, and in doing so, would be crushed.

Mass Effect 2 offers absolutely nothing to remotely insinuate their plan has even the slight possibility of success.

First, we were never told that the Collectors only have one ship. We only encountered the one ship.

Second, we don't know they were planning to go to Earth. They never told us. We also don't know how many humans it would take to complete a Reaper.

Third, we have no idea what their plan was. We know the Reapers will be here soon, the ME3 trailer makes that pretty obvious. The Collectors perhaps were just getting a jump on the Reaper building. Maybe that's why Harbinger says "this changes nothing".

As to our ME1 plothole:

Quarians are universally distrusted and Anderson was just dismissed as an irrational Saren hater. The council is just going to take this at face value? It's a plot hole. There are more. Shepard would never take on these characters as his crew. A shy archiologist is suddenly packing heat and mowing down Geth? Plot hole. And what is it with the timers on the explosives  at Eden Prime? All he wanted destroyed was the beacon. Shoot it up and go. Plot hole.

And on Feros, why didn't the Geth just bombard the colony? They had space ships. But they keep sending in foot troops? Plot hole.

And the final battle - the Protheans just happened to design a program to override Saren's override? Wow... deus ex machina. And sovereigns shields just happened to go down when Frogger-Saren died? Why? I didn't realize Reapers had such awful design. Cheap, cheap story telling tactic, on par with zombie Shepard.

Oh sure, you could rationalize away these things, just as I can rationalize away things in ME2.  My argument is that using these points to bash one game while leaving the other untouched is cherry picking. It's dishonest.

I personally love the games because although its cheesy space opera, its fun and the plot holes aren't so huge (cough cough the new star trek movie) that I can't simply ignore them. But if we're going to honestly criticize the story and writing then its full of plot holes, dues ex machina, and trope characters. But imo, its well done cheese, with classic lines and fun story and character arcs and I very much like it.

But please, please, please stop pretending ME1 was anything more than the rest of it.

[Il Divo]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

While undoubtedly the scene could have been portrayed significantly better, with forensic evidence and the like entering the fold. The idea I perceive BioWare intended was the combination of things against Saren was compiling enough. Furthermore, we can argue there is no evidence to suggest Tali would alter the file. This does not constitute a plot hole because the plot demanded finding evidence to proof Saren's involvement. This was accomplished, and there is nothing to disprove the voice recording. It certainly could have been written better, however it sufficed.

Unfortunately, it did not suffice. Despite your conclusion, there was no 'evidence' against Saren justifying his portrayal as a traitor. The very point of the C-sec operation was that Garrus was merely a loose cannon cop. He himself says he found nothing. The Council already dismissed the dock worker out of hand (another plot hole), yet suddenly they have full confidence in Shepard. That's all there was to the scene. Whatever also makes a good point regarding the Quarian portrayal on the Citadel.

Your definition of plot hole has problems as well. I can justify anything by saying 'the plot demands this'.  The Collector scheme is not a plot-hole because the plot demanded that they build a new Reaper. I doubt you'd consider that an acceptable excuse for Mass Effect 2.

What were the Collectors going to use? They had a single ship in their arsenal with relatively poor defensive capabilities. An assault on Earth would require ships in the thousands or they would be decimated. The Seeker Swarms could not paralyze an enemy ship and the moment the Collectors approached the Traverse and would discovered a hostile threat, they again would be destroyed. The Omega 4 Relay is a base world, not a weapon. It is meant to conceal their activity in constructing a human reaper. (ugh...) For it to be completed, they must target Earth, and in doing so, would be crushed.

We didn't know they were going to attack Earth, which is the problem with your conclusion. Yes, the squad member's line on the Collector Vessel is non-sensical, yet I don't see why we are following that to the conclusion that the Collectors will attack Earth.

The problem with your theory is that it presupposes that the Alliance has a definitive method of tracking the Collectors, which we know has not been possible up until this point. You also missed the point of the Omega IV Relay. Yes, it's not a weapon. However, how exactly would the Alliance traverse the Omega IV Relay without the Reaper IFF?

[Bourne Endeavor]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

First, we were never told that the Collectors only have one ship. We only encountered the one ship.

So we invade the Omega 4 Relay and assault their base of operation but they only result with a single ship in defense when they could have a fleet? So the Collectors and Harbinger are completely incompetent?

Second, we don't know they were planning to go to Earth. They never told us. We also don't know how many humans it would take to complete a Reaper.

EDI states it would take millions, although she concedes to making estimates. Regardless, it is implied they will target Earth or at the very least enter the Traverse.

Third, we have no idea what their plan was. We know the Reapers will be here soon, the ME3 trailer makes that pretty obvious. The Collectors perhaps were just getting a jump on the Reaper building. Maybe that's why Harbinger says "this changes nothing".

The Collectors are a puppet race under absolute servitude to the Reapers. They cannot merely "jump on board" because they follow orders. Their plan was to build a Human Reaper, that is the extent and this planned failed miserably and was futile from the onset.

As to our ME1 plothole:

Quarians are universally distrusted and Anderson was just dismissed as an irrational Saren hater. The council is just going to take this at face value? It's a plot hole. There are more. Shepard would never take on these characters as his crew. A shy archiologist is suddenly packing heat and mowing down Geth? Plot hole. And what is it with the timers on the explosives  at Eden Prime? All he wanted destroyed was the beacon. Shoot it up and go. Plot hole.

No, the Quarians are disliked due to the creation of the Geth. Anderson was removed from the case, therefore his hatred for Saren is irrelevant. There is no evidence Tali would attempt to frame one of the most prolific Spectres in the galaxy. She gains absolutely nothing in doing so.

Liara is a plot hole because she is capable of using a firearm despite a meek personality? Really? This is the rebuttal you wish to demonstrate? Congratulations, every video game in the history of the industry is a plot hole induced disaster. That is by far one of the most ridiculous conclusions I have ever read on this forum, and I have read Zulu's theories.

It is perfectly logical Liara is capable of wielding a gun and/or has some combat experience given who her mother is. Coincidently, when we meet Liara and it is unlikely she would carry a firearm, she does not and is reliant on her biotics. Therefore, we can theorize she has biotic experience and likely to know basic training. Even in the event she was merely the benefit of gameplay requiring her to handle a gun. It cannot be a plot hole because it does not effect the narrative. It would be akin to claiming Wrex using a pistol is a plot hole because he should use a shotgun.

Uh, how about Saren outright stating, "make sure no one knows we are here"? Leaving the Alliance or Council to speculate and squabble or what had become of Eden Prime whilst he carry out the Sovereign's objective sounds like a rather decent plan.

And on Feros, why didn't the Geth just bombard the colony? They had space ships. But they keep sending in foot troops? Plot hole.

... did you even play Mass Effect? They were ordered to destroy the Thorian and bombarding a human colony would probably attract a large amount of attention. When you are attempting to elude your adversaries, as Saren was, that would be a bad idea. The Council would declare it an act of war, defensive positions would be taken and preparations made, making it virtually impossible for Saren to reach the Citadel.

If you want a more simplistic answer. When Saren arrived, he already had Geth with him and ordered his ground team to destroy the Thorian since they were there to begin with.

And the final battle - the Protheans just happened to design a program to override Saren's override? Wow... deus ex machina. And sovereigns shields just happened to go down when Frogger-Saren died? Why? I didn't realize Reapers had such awful design. Cheap, cheap story telling tactic, on par with zombie Shepard.

Uh, no. They designed a program for any organic life to use in hopes of preventing the cycle of genocide once the certainty of their extinction was inevitable. Sovereign's shields went down because it transferred its own mind into Saren's body in a final desperate attempt to kill Shepard. By doing so, Sovereign became vulnerable. Its eventual defeat led to a significant drop in power and thus it was destroyed.

Oh sure, you could rationalize away these things, just as I can rationalize away things in ME2.  My argument is that using these points to bash one game while leaving the other untouched is cherry picking. It's dishonest.

No, your 'rationalizations' ranged for incorrect to complete ineptitude. They were not comprehensive nor constructive but stemmed from a trivial attempt to defeat Mass Effect 2's main plot. What separates the two while Mass Effect offers exposition on the majority or some plausible excuse, albeit stretching it to some extent on occasion; Mass Effect 2 does not. You cannot rationalize Shepard's revival because it is not logical. There are theories derived by the fanbase and even those cannot come to a conclusive and believable consensus.

Shepard would have either burned up in Planet reentry or hurled towards the ground at thousands of miles per hour. In either scenario there would be nothing left to rebuild. So what? Is Zulu's ridiculous Mako theory correct? So (s)he was able to use the expelled oxygen and propel themself from the volition of their gun to the Mako, which just happened to be floating by, whilst holding their breath? Perhaps, Shepard floated around space and was picked up by another ship, which just happened to be within the vicinity yet not a target of the Collectors. Of course the game itself contradicts that.

That is an explain of a plot hole. Your aforementioned attempts were pointless ramblings that were frankly insult in some cases and creditability destroying it others. (Hello Liara)

But please, please, please stop pretending ME1 was anything more than the rest of it.

No one is claiming ME1 is the pinnacle of gaming storytelling. It was a decent plot, which accomplished the necessary objective with a believable and consistent narrative. It was not widely original nor astonishing by any degree but solid and entertaining. Far from the best, but good nonetheless. Mass Effect 2's main plot was a plot hole riddled mess. Good and thoroughly enjoyable game but lacking heavily on the story front.

[Femlob]

Let's throw in one of those random questions to spice things up:

From what I understand, Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters were involved in both ME1 and ME2, while ME3 is reportedly being written by just Mac Walters. The latter is also responsible for writing or at least overseeing the writing of a couple of comics I can't be arsed to purchase, let alone read. If I want to read, I'll grab a book.

Now - considering that Mass Effect was intended to be a trilogy from the start, how much of this writing is done "on the fly", so to speak? From where I stand, it would make sense to jot down the red thread of the entire story before one starts filling out the specifics from game to game. Following that train of thought, how much of ME3's story can we assume has been written by Mac Walters? And how much creative leeway would he have, assuming the outline of the story has already been established?

What I gather from most of the replies in this thread is that quite a few people seem to assume that the games are written one after another with no attention paid to the, very likely previously established, story outline. It's something I can scarcely believe.

Modifié par Femlob, 20 février 2011 - 01:32 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Il Divo wrote...

Unfortunately, it did not suffice. Despite your conclusion, there was no 'evidence' against Saren justifying his portrayal as a traitor. The very point of the C-sec operation was that Garrus was merely a loose cannon cop. He himself says he found nothing. The Council already dismissed the dock worker out of hand (another plot hole), yet suddenly they have full confidence in Shepard. That's all there was to the scene. Whatever also makes a good point regarding the Quarian portrayal on the Citadel.

You are disregarding the fundamental questions. What would be Shepard's purpose for doctoring falsified evidence to chase after Saren and how would (s)he accomplish this feat? There is no rationality to Shepard doing so unless you wish to argue humanity was attempting to orchestrated a political coup by removing a prolific feature from his pedestal. In which case, why would Saren not willingly return to defend these accusations?

The docker worker's testimony was dismissed due to his traumatized state however Saren still lied when questioned about Eden Prime, claiming he had never been there. It is a logical assumption to conclude the Council reconsidered the prior testimony given the new evidence and the fact Saren lied about his whereabouts. Is it absolute? Hardly, and BioWare most definitely could have offered a larger scope of exposition.

Your definition of plot hole has problems as well. I can justify anything by saying 'the plot demands this'.  The Collector scheme is not a plot-hole because the plot demanded that they build a new Reaper. I doubt you'd consider that an acceptable excuse for Mass Effect 2.

Except the difference being ME's variation had believability and exposition, albeit not the best, to move along the plot device. ME2 did not and frequently ignored or retconned prior established facts. In any event, my wording was less articulate than desired. I will concede that regard.

We didn't know they were going to attack Earth, which is the problem with your conclusion. Yes, the squad member's line on the Collector Vessel is non-sensical, yet I don't see why we are following that to the conclusion that the Collectors will attack Earth.

They were in need of millions of humans, more than the Terminus System had by estimations from EDI. Therefore, they would have to eventually enter the Traverse, however even presuming she was incorrect. Their plan is still moronic because at some point they will attract the Council or Alliance's attention. Then again both are made to be so widely inept in Mass Effect 2, perhaps not. Frankly, the entire angle no one does anything while the Collector's gather up colonies or that humans are not abandoning the Terminus is droves is another of the many plot holes circulating in this game.

The problem with your theory is that it presupposes that the Alliance has a definitive method of tracking the Collectors, which we know has not been possible up until this point. You also missed the point of the Omega IV Relay. Yes, it's not a weapon. However, how exactly would the Alliance traverse the Omega IV Relay without the Reaper IFF?

Well considering the Collectors have approximately one ship the entire game. Destroying it might be an effective means to halt their progress. Another alternative could simply be to destroy the Omega IV Relay, thereby trapping the Collectors and/or Harbinger inside. Instead the Alliance sits around doing absolutely nothing save whining Shepard works for Cerberus.

[Whatever42]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

First, we were never told that the Collectors only have one ship. We only encountered the one ship.

So we invade the Omega 4 Relay and assault their base of operation but they only result with a single ship in defense when they could have a fleet? So the Collectors and Harbinger are completely incompetent?

Second, we don't know they were planning to go to Earth. They never told us. We also don't know how many humans it would take to complete a Reaper.

EDI states it would take millions, although she concedes to making estimates. Regardless, it is implied they will target Earth or at the very least enter the Traverse.

Third, we have no idea what their plan was. We know the Reapers will be here soon, the ME3 trailer makes that pretty obvious. The Collectors perhaps were just getting a jump on the Reaper building. Maybe that's why Harbinger says "this changes nothing".

The Collectors are a puppet race under absolute servitude to the Reapers. They cannot merely "jump on board" because they follow orders. Their plan was to build a Human Reaper, that is the extent and this planned failed miserably and was futile from the onset.

As to our ME1 plothole:

Quarians are universally distrusted and Anderson was just dismissed as an irrational Saren hater. The council is just going to take this at face value? It's a plot hole. There are more. Shepard would never take on these characters as his crew. A shy archiologist is suddenly packing heat and mowing down Geth? Plot hole. And what is it with the timers on the explosives  at Eden Prime? All he wanted destroyed was the beacon. Shoot it up and go. Plot hole.

No, the Quarians are disliked due to the creation of the Geth. Anderson was removed from the case, therefore his hatred for Saren is irrelevant. There is no evidence Tali would attempt to frame one of the most prolific Spectres in the galaxy. She gains absolutely nothing in doing so.

Liara is a plot hole because she is capable of using a firearm despite a meek personality? Really? This is the rebuttal you wish to demonstrate? Congratulations, every video game in the history of the industry is a plot hole induced disaster. That is by far one of the most ridiculous conclusions I have ever read on this forum, and I have read Zulu's theories.

It is perfectly logical Liara is capable of wielding a gun and/or has some combat experience given who her mother is. Coincidently, when we meet Liara and it is unlikely she would carry a firearm, she does not and is reliant on her biotics. Therefore, we can theorize she has biotic experience and likely to know basic training. Even in the event she was merely the benefit of gameplay requiring her to handle a gun. It cannot be a plot hole because it does not effect the narrative. It would be akin to claiming Wrex using a pistol is a plot hole because he should use a shotgun.

Uh, how about Saren outright stating, "make sure no one knows we are here"? Leaving the Alliance or Council to speculate and squabble or what had become of Eden Prime whilst he carry out the Sovereign's objective sounds like a rather decent plan.

And on Feros, why didn't the Geth just bombard the colony? They had space ships. But they keep sending in foot troops? Plot hole.

... did you even play Mass Effect? They were ordered to destroy the Thorian and bombarding a human colony would probably attract a large amount of attention. When you are attempting to elude your adversaries, as Saren was, that would be a bad idea. The Council would declare it an act of war, defensive positions would be taken and preparations made, making it virtually impossible for Saren to reach the Citadel.

If you want a more simplistic answer. When Saren arrived, he already had Geth with him and ordered his ground team to destroy the Thorian since they were there to begin with.

And the final battle - the Protheans just happened to design a program to override Saren's override? Wow... deus ex machina. And sovereigns shields just happened to go down when Frogger-Saren died? Why? I didn't realize Reapers had such awful design. Cheap, cheap story telling tactic, on par with zombie Shepard.

Uh, no. They designed a program for any organic life to use in hopes of preventing the cycle of genocide once the certainty of their extinction was inevitable. Sovereign's shields went down because it transferred its own mind into Saren's body in a final desperate attempt to kill Shepard. By doing so, Sovereign became vulnerable. Its eventual defeat led to a significant drop in power and thus it was destroyed.

Oh sure, you could rationalize away these things, just as I can rationalize away things in ME2.  My argument is that using these points to bash one game while leaving the other untouched is cherry picking. It's dishonest.

No, your 'rationalizations' ranged for incorrect to complete ineptitude. They were not comprehensive nor constructive but stemmed from a trivial attempt to defeat Mass Effect 2's main plot. What separates the two while Mass Effect offers exposition on the majority or some plausible excuse, albeit stretching it to some extent on occasion; Mass Effect 2 does not. You cannot rationalize Shepard's revival because it is not logical. There are theories derived by the fanbase and even those cannot come to a conclusive and believable consensus.

Shepard would have either burned up in Planet reentry or hurled towards the ground at thousands of miles per hour. In either scenario there would be nothing left to rebuild. So what? Is Zulu's ridiculous Mako theory correct? So (s)he was able to use the expelled oxygen and propel themself from the volition of their gun to the Mako, which just happened to be floating by, whilst holding their breath? Perhaps, Shepard floated around space and was picked up by another ship, which just happened to be within the vicinity yet not a target of the Collectors. Of course the game itself contradicts that.

That is an explain of a plot hole. Your aforementioned attempts were pointless ramblings that were frankly insult in some cases and creditability destroying it others. (Hello Liara)

But please, please, please stop pretending ME1 was anything more than the rest of it.

No one is claiming ME1 is the pinnacle of gaming storytelling. It was a decent plot, which accomplished the necessary objective with a believable and consistent narrative. It was not widely original nor astonishing by any degree but solid and entertaining. Far from the best, but good nonetheless. Mass Effect 2's main plot was a plot hole riddled mess. Good and thoroughly enjoyable game but lacking heavily on the story front.

Nonsense. Your rationalizations don't go anywhere near closing the ME1 plotholes.

Barak Obama is secretly a Chinese agent. Well, you have no reason to disbelieve me so it must be true, right? Tali is a teenager on her pilgramage and on her evidence, they make you a spectre and send you after Saren. Wow.

Liara was an archiologist, a very young one. She never went though her maiden phase commando and stripping careers. She just spontaneously become an Asari killing machine. Even if she had basic training, Shepard, a spectre, a deadly warrior, is taking along someone with basic firearms training? You are seriously going to try to defend that? Really?

And no evidence that we were here? He was blowing up the docks but there were damn spikes everywhere across the colony. Plot hole. And it still doesn't explain why he didn't blow the beacon. Or blow the beacon on Virmire. He didn't need it any more. He kept it around for giggles? Another plot hole.

And Sovereign is a millions old cyborg space ship. He can't possess a minion without his shields dropping? He is a nation of programs. It makes no sense whatsover. You can't even rationalize that, its just so stupid.

And the Protheans plan was to prevent the Reapers from repossessing the citadel. They said they never anticipated an organic from finding the message and going there to use the conduit. But they still created an override program in case one did. Deux es Machina. Sorry. It is. You can deny but it came out of no where to defeat Saren's carefully laid plan and so fits the definition perfectly.

The writing in ME1 was pure cheese. The writing was awful.

[ParagonRenegade]

lolwutz thiz thred abauwt

[Mongerty2]

The plot repetition is bad (although I imagine it was a ploy to get us to possible "like" TIM more by mirroring our own characters).



Really, the rest of the stuff can change in the follow up issues, and I don't see anything that is too terrible that it cannot be rectified in ME3. If there is anything that I learned from being a Halo fan, it is that Canon goes from Games>Spinoff Games>Books>Comics.

[JKoopman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Liara was an archiologist, a very young one. She never went though her maiden phase commando and stripping careers. She just spontaneously become an Asari killing machine. Even if she had basic training, Shepard, a spectre, a deadly warrior, is taking along someone with basic firearms training? You are seriously going to try to defend that? Really?

No. Shepard is taking along someone with basic training AND the most powerful biotics of anyone else on your team AND the ability to help you make sense of the Prothean vision AND is the daughter of your enemy's second-in-command, which may come in handy down the road. I doubt anyone brings Liara along for her combat abilities, seeing as she's limited to pistols and light armor.

Seriously, you're grasping at straws with this one.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And no evidence that we were here? He was blowing up the docks but there were damn spikes everywhere across the colony. Plot hole. And it still doesn't explain why he didn't blow the beacon. Or blow the beacon on Virmire. He didn't need it any more. He kept it around for giggles? Another plot hole.

Spikes (and husks) that could easily be retrieved as the geth retreated from the colony. Why do you assume that he was going to leave them there indefinately?

And why would Saren destroy the beacon he was holding in his secret and heavily defended base? Obviously he was studying it, likely trying to unlock the secrets of Ilos and the Prothean alterations.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And Sovereign is a millions old cyborg space ship. He can't possess a minion without his shields dropping? He is a nation of programs. It makes no sense whatsover. You can't even rationalize that, its just so stupid.

Yes, it's clearly far-fetched to think that destroying Sovereign's avatar before he could transfer his program back might cause him to suffer a momentary power fluctuation while his systems reboot, and leave him "dazed" just long enough to get in a few good hits. That's just so stupid, you can't even rationalize it...except by rationalizing it so it doesn't sound quite so stupid.

And really, is it worse than the giant Terminator in ME2?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And the Protheans plan was to prevent the Reapers from repossessing the citadel. They said they never anticipated an organic from finding the message and going there to use the conduit. But they still created an override program in case one did. Deux es Machina. Sorry. It is. You can deny but it came out of no where to defeat Saren's carefully laid plan and so fits the definition perfectly.

It might help your case if you were to actually play Mass Effect. The very first words Vigil says to you on Ilos is "You are not Prothean. But you are not machine, either. This eventuality was one of many that was anticipated."

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 février 2011 - 02:50 .

[Whatever42]

JKoopman wrote...



It might help your case if you were to actually play Mass Effect. The very first words Vigil says to you on Ilos is "You are not Prothean. But you are not machine, either. This eventuality was one of many that was anticipated."

You justified taking her on your ship but you never justified taking her along on missions with you. She never once said  "I am an all powerful biotic, I am an expert at using them in combat" or demonstrated that fact. You just gave her a gun and dragged her into combat.  And all Asari are biotic. You could have recruited one of the dancers at Chora's Den by that logic. And the Quarian teenager? I mean, you have a reason to ferry around the scared, naive archiologist but the teenager?

As for the spikes, so if they were going to fly around picking everything up with their magic Geth tractor beams, why blow up the whole dock? Just pick up the beacon. Or just blow it up. Why the whole dock? And why wait? Just fry it right there.

And after that mistake, they then leave the one on Virmire. Seriously??? How stupid is this guy? So what if the base is heavily defended? He doesn't need it anymore! Its a major risk! Shepard is dogging him and stole one from underneath him at Eden Prime! And the attack went on for quite some time and Saren just plain forgot he had it sitting there?? Of course, it happens because Saren is a comic book villain - they type who leaves the hero dangling over a vat of acid on a timer instead of just shooting him.

Again, Sovereign is millions of years old and a computer made up of millions of programs. He was controlling Frogger-Saren and blasting away at the Alliance fleet at the same time. He didn't transfer his consciousness. He seemed to be multi-tasking quite well. But you're telling me that after millions of years, with countless Reapers, one of them never noticed the rather MAJOR software glitch that turns them into an invalid when a controlled husk dies?

As to Vigil:



Skip to about 4:20. "We never realized it could lead an agent of the Reapers - like Saren - to this world." But, despite them never having thought about it, they were prepared anyway. You know, you might actually want to assume I've played it a few times.

I can't believe people so clearly see the ME2 plotholes but are so amazingly blind to the awful writing in ME1. And I won't defend ME2. The writing was awful there too. The writing throughout the whole series is poor stuff generally.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 20 février 2011 - 03:06 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Damn... just read the comic.

I thought it was alright, considering my standards for comics in general... but the contradictions, man, the contradictions!

The thing that stood out the most to me was that General Williams "resigned" instead of being relieved after the liberation of Shanxi; plus, he made it out like he was resigning due to the aliens? Did Ashley not tell us that her grandfather was relieved of his command and brought back to Earth in irons, right after Shanxi's liberation? 


Mac, first of all, you already admitted to using the ME wiki for lore purposes... you need to compile an official Mass Effect Bible or something, because relying on a lore reference edited by FANS, and not on some company "Font of Knowledge", is almost the definition of unprofessional, especially for a Lead Writer. Did Bioware not think it was important to retain consistency throughout the IP or something? I know it must be terribly hard to remember so many different characters, backgrounds, etc., but that's why developers have Lore Bibles. It's kind of important to know the IP you're writing for.


I can't really blame people for facepalming at this sort of thing, either. Especially when the comic was written by a Lead Writer, and not some commissioned author. It's pretty indefensible. Sorry.

And if this is a sign of things to come in Mass Effect 3... I would strongly advise Bioware to slow down production and make sure the game is rock solid, both story-wise and gameplay-wise.

[JKoopman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...



It might help your case if you were to actually play Mass Effect. The very first words Vigil says to you on Ilos is "You are not Prothean. But you are not machine, either. This eventuality was one of many that was anticipated."

You justified taking her on your ship but you never justified taking her along on missions with you. She never once said  "I am an all powerful biotic, I am an expert at using them in combat" or demonstrated that fact. You just gave her a gun and dragged her into combat.  And all Asari are biotic. You could have recruited one of the dancers at Chora's Den by that logic. And the Quarian teenager? I mean, you have a reason to ferry around the scared, naive archiologist but the teenager?

Tali begged to be allowed to follow you on your mission in the hopes of uncovering something of use for her Pilgrimage. That said, neither Tali nor Liara is forced into your party at any point. Don't think they're cut out for combat? Then don't take them with you into combat. You're ranting about something that's 100% the player's choice.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

As for the spikes, so if they were going to fly around picking everything up with their magic Geth tractor beams, why blow up the whole dock? Just pick up the beacon. Or just blow it up. Why the whole dock? And why wait? Just fry it right there.

Because Saren wanted to destroy the colony. Both to leave no witnesses and, in case you missed it, because he's not especially fond of humans.

Why did Saren not shoot up the beacon instead of leaving it for the explosives to take care of? Hubris maybe? He never thought a meer human would be able to make it passed the geth and disarm the charges? Maybe he just wasn't thinking clearly because of his indoctrination? You'd really have to ask him what his reasoning was.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

And after that mistake, they then leave the one on Virmire. Seriously??? How stupid is this guy? So what if the base is heavily defended? He doesn't need it anymore! Its a major risk! Shepard is dogging him and stole one from underneath him at Eden Prime! And the attack went on for quite some time and Saren just plain forgot he had it sitting there?? Of course, it happens because Saren is a comic book villain - they type who leaves the hero dangling over a vat of acid on a timer instead of just shooting him.

Maybe Saren was in a hurry to reach Ilos and didn't have time to go back for the beacon? Maybe he was otherwise distracted dealing with the salarian infiltration team on the other side of the compound? Maybe, again, he just figured a measely human would be no threat and assumed that you wouldn't be able to stop him even with the complete vision. Saren seemed to underestimate Shepard a lot throughout the game and, in case you didn't notice, he wasn't exactly in a rational state of mind towards the end.

You're intentionally trying to shadow these situations in the most illogical light possible when there are plenty of rational explainations.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Again, Sovereign is millions of years old and a computer made up of millions of programs. He was controlling Frogger-Saren and blasting away at the Alliance fleet at the same time. He didn't transfer his consciousness. He seemed to be multi-tasking quite well. But you're telling me that after millions of years, with countless Reapers, one of them never noticed the rather MAJOR software glitch that turns them into an invalid when a controlled husk dies?

Does it make perfect sense? Perhaps not. Is it a glaring plothole warranting the bug you apparently have up your butt about it? Not by a long shot. On the scale of believability compared to the entirety of ME2's ending, it's about a 7 to ME2's 1.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

As to Vigil:



Skip to about 4:20. "We never realized it could lead an agent of the Reapers - like Saren - to this world." But, despite them never having thought about it, they were prepared anyway. You know, you might actually want to assume I've played it a few times.

So let's see...

The Prothean scientists knew about the Reapers and used the Conduit to return to the Citadel after the invasion was complete to reprogram the Keepers so they wouldn't respond to the Reaper signal.

They anticipated that a non-Prothean, organic race would find the beacons and that the beacons would lead them to Ilos.

They also knew that the Reapers left behind a vanguard to keep tabs on the state of the galaxy and open the portal into dark space when the time was right.

Knowing that, they likely also anticipated that, when the Reaper signal failed to activate the Keepers, the vanguard would attempt to open the portal to dark space by other means and doing so would mean directly assaulting the Citadel.

Put two and two together and I don't see how it's far-fetched for the Prothean scientists to create an override program that would prevent a Reaper from taking control of the station. What they didn't anticipate was an indoctrinated organic leading an army through the Conduit to pre-emptively take control of the Citadel from within, but then the command program wasn't intended to stop that from happening. It was intended to prevent the Reapers from controlling the station from without.

So this plot hole that you seem to think exists, doesn't.

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 février 2011 - 03:40 .

[Kusy]

Spaedar wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...
/snip

Excellent point that I could not agree more with. That he'd even want that published seriously makes me question things.
And yes, I remember reading that interview about using the wikipedia as resource for information. I believe that was in fact how "someone" pointed out to him that Executor Pallin was in fact assumed dead, as they were writing the mess that was Inquisition. Which I seriously hope will have no effect on my gameplay as long as Udina stays out of the Councilor position. 

No, this is not an excellent point my friends. Because even the bloody wiki got it right and acording to what Ash said about her grandfather. Writers are not using the wikipedia entries because they are true to the games. Writers are pulling things out of their asses.

I never even wanted to board the Mac Walters hate train but if ME3 has a story as shitty as this I'm gonna loose all remaining faith in video game industry. And please, don't tell me that "it will all become clear in the next two issues". This issue is compleate poop and that's as far as I'm concerned.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Have we not learned one thing from a certain politician in ME2? ANYTHING can be dismissed.

He blew our minds and gave us the answer. Finger quotes and dismissal.

[Kusy]

Also, inb4 next two issues deny everything already estabilished by Mass Effect: Revelation in the Saren + Reapers toppic. Mark my words as I'm going to quote myself later when it shows up to be true.

[Zulu_DFA]

LookingGlass93 wrote...
To sum up some of the new information this comic gives us:

1) Ash's grandfather didn't surrender Shanxi, nor did he leave the Alliance over that surrender. He left the Alliance because he hates aliens, including the Citadel.

Why can't you guys just wait for a couple of months till #4 comes out, then cry RETCON!!!   ???

$10 says, it'll end with the "official" establishment of Cerberus and the circulating of the "Manifesto" on the Extranet. And given Gen. Williams' attitude, another $10 says he'll be involved. So we are bound to see more of him, and then maybe, just maybe, this "back in irons" part will be clarified. If not, then all'll be lost and Mac'll suck.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 20 février 2011 - 03:54 .

[Kusy]

Yeah, I know Spaedar, sorry. It's just my brain rapidly turning into a raspberry jello after reading Evolution.