602 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I can't believe people so clearly see the ME2 plotholes but are so amazingly blind to the awful writing in ME1. And I won't defend ME2. The writing was awful there too. The writing throughout the whole series is poor stuff generally.

I wouldn't say it's generally poor... certainly not for a videogame. In the realms of film/television/videogames, I find that most writing sucks compared to that of novels. Movies and games are more casually written.

The thing about Mass Effect 1, though, is that it introduced an interesting, mature story with mature writing and mature characters, along with a look that was grounded in realism.

In Mass 2, the writing was still pretty interesting, but it lost the ground that the series had been established on and we got a game where characters were running around in catsuits and shirtless harnesses, the main character (presumably) went through atmospheric reentry and was resurrected, who then worked for a shady organization and did as he/she was told without really questioning them (despite possibly having had his/her entire squad killed by this organization), much less squad banter during missions, the Collector/Reaper harvesting plot, etc....

And now we have a comic with which has some pretty obvious lore contradictions, written by a Lead Writer who admits he uses the fan-edited Mass Effect wiki as a reference for the lore?


I have no problem with the writing, unless it openly contradicts stuff we already know, and I have no problem with the art direction in the second game unless it contradicts both the lore and the aesthetic of the first. Game mechanics and thermal clips are another story.

The trend I've noticed going from ME1 to ME2 in this regard is a trend I don't want to see continue into ME3. That's all I'm saying.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 20 février 2011 - 04:18 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

darknoon5 wrote...

(...)

Also, Mac wrote Wrex, who you seem to think Drew wrote-Mac wrote the entire Krogan race. Jack was also interetsing if you bothered learning about her.  I agree Grunt was slightly lame, but he was designed to change the Krogan situation. ME2 also offered Thane and Samara, very intersting characters who I think (am not certain) Mac wrote. Also, I think (not certain) Mac wrote Garrus?

(...)

Samara and Thane weren't written by Mac. Thane was written by Chris E'Ltoile, the same writer who wrote Ashley and Legion. I forgot who wrote Samara, though, but it definitely wasn't Mac.

[Kusy]

We are not saying that Mac Walters can't write characters, we are saying he oviously have problems with following what was already estabilished.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

We are not saying that Mac Walters can't write characters, we are saying he oviously have problems with following what was already estabilished.

To me, it seems he simply doesn't care about what Drew established. Yet he's Lead Writer of ME3. It's really like he's rewriting the series his way.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Spaedar wrote...

Excellent point that I could not agree more with. That he'd even want that published seriously makes me question things.

And yes, I remember reading that interview about using the wikipedia as resource for information. I believe that was in fact how "someone" pointed out to him that Executor Pallin was in fact assumed dead, as they were writing the mess that was Inquisition. Which I seriously hope will have no effect on my gameplay as long as Udina stays out of the Councilor position.

That just makes me think that Mac has no respect for the lore, otherwise, he'd be on top of it... but that's just fear mongering. I'd rather he make me look like a total idiot and wrap up the comic in a way that makes sense in regards to the lore... but judging by his past statements? Meh.

If Casey Hudson isn't on his a** about it, one of the Doctors should threaten him with a Renegade Interrupt Facepalm.

[Whatever42]

Tali begged to be allowed to follow you on your mission in the hopes of uncovering something of use for her Pilgrimage. That said, neither Tali nor Liara is forced into your party at any point. Don't think they're cut out for combat? Then don't take them with you into combat. You're ranting about something that's 100% the player's choice.

Yes, because it’s an unbelievable choice. Why not give us a choice to take Joker on our missions? What if he begged?  It would be more believable than Shepard for any reason bringing along a teenager hacker.

Because Saren wanted to destroy the colony. Both to leave no witnesses and, in case you missed it, because he's not especially fond of humans.

So then Sovereign should have blasted the whole colony to dust. But all they did was plant some explosives at one of the docks. The explosives were at one dock. Not all over the colony. It was not a nuke. It was explosives to blow up one meaningless dock. If Saren wanted everyone dead, nuke the colony. He has Sovereign. If he just cared about blowing up the beacon then blow it up. But timed explosives at one dock make zero sense.

Why did Saren not shoot up the beacon instead of leaving it for the explosives to take care of? Hubris maybe? He never thought a meer human would be able to make it passed the geth and disarm the charges? Maybe he just wasn't thinking clearly because of his indoctrination? You'd really have to ask him what his reasoning was.

Sure, we could use that explanation. Saren was just stupid. However, Saren is normally pretty efficient and this is pretty damn dumb.  I would expect such odd, out-of-character gross incompentence to be explained. Since its not, its a plot hole. A major one.

Maybe Saren was in a hurry to reach Ilos and didn't have time to go back for the beacon? Maybe he was otherwise distracted dealing with the salarian infiltration team on the other side of the compound? Maybe, again, he just figured a measely human would be no threat and assumed that you wouldn't be able to stop him even with the complete vision. Saren seemed to underestimate Shepard a lot throughout the game and, in case you didn't notice, he wasn't exactly in a rational state of mind towards the end.

Saren was still on Virmire when you use the 2nd beacon. He didn’t run anywhere. After getting burned on the 1st beacon, he leaves the 2nd one right there. And that measly human got the 1st beacon, got him stripped of his spectre status, and defeated his forces to get the cypher, rescued Liara, and defeated a matriarch to find the location of the relay (or any 2 of those). I know Saren is arrogant but it defies all logic that he would leave it there. It’s a plot hole.

You're intentionally trying to shadow these situations in the most illogical light possible when there are plenty of rational explainations.

No, I am intentionally trying to point out the bad writing in the mass effect series. I can rationalize away all the plot holes in both games as well. But these are still significant plot holes. They have a major effect on the story but are never explained.

Does it make perfect sense? Perhaps not. Is it a glaring plothole warranting the bug you apparently have up your butt about it? Not by a long shot. On the scale of believability compared to the entirety of ME2's ending, it's about a 7 to ME2's 1.

The ME1 ending used a dues ex machina prothean hacking program available out of nowhere to defeat Saren’s plan and then after defeating Frogger-Saren, the all-powerful Reaper faints and you find something in ME2’s ending even more unbelievable than that? Lay it on me. But again, I have no interest in defending ME2, I’m arguing that the writing of the entire series is a total mess so I may agree with you – I just don’t see it.

So let's see...

The Prothean scientists knew about the Reapers and used the Conduit to return to the Citadel after the invasion was complete to reprogram the Keepers so they wouldn't respond to the Reaper signal.

They anticipated that a non-Prothean, organic race would find the becons and that the beacons would lead them to Ilos.

They also knew that the Reapers left behind a vanguard to keep tabs on the state of the galaxy and open the portal into dark space when the time was right.

Knowing that, they likely also anticipated that, when the Reaper signal failed to activate the Keepers, the vanguard would attempt to open the portal to dark space by other means and doing so would mean directly assaulting the Citadel.

Put two and two together and I don't see how it's far-fetched for the Prothean scientists to create an override program that would prevent a Reaper from taking control of the station. What they didn't anticipate was an indoctrinated organic leading an army through the Conduit to pre-emptively take control of the Citadel from within, but then the command program wasn't intended to stop that from happening. It was intended to prevent the Reapers from controlling the station from without.

So this plot hole that you seem to think exists, doesn't.

Well, I was arguing a deus ex machine and a plot hole. Both exist. So according to your logic, the protheans figured that the Reapers would find some other way of infiltrating the Citadel and taking control and figured that some agent of that Citadel would just happened to stumble on them during this conflict so they better have a hacking program ready. Pretty thin… but ok.  They never explain why they have such a program ready so its a plothole but I'll leave your rationalization alone.

But it’s a dues ex machine without question: Saren spends years and the whole game plotting this attack and Shepard has no way to stop him until out of thin air, a VI gives them a program to defeat Saren. That is the very definition of deus ex machina: a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

Not saying that ME1 didn’t have some epic scenes but as far as the plot and story goes, it was a total mess, just like the rest of the series. But let’s face it, the people who write game plot are not people who are at the pinnacle of the craft.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 20 février 2011 - 04:25 .

[Sable Phoenix]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But it’s a dues ex machine without question: Saren spends years and the whole game plotting this attack and Shepard has no way to stop him until out of thin air, a VI gives them a program to defeat Saren. That is the very definition of deus ex machina: a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

Not saying that ME1 didn’t have some epic scenes but as far as the plot and story goes, it was a total mess, just like the rest of the series. But let’s face it, the people who write game plot are not people who are at the pinnacle of the craft.

Do you even know what deus ex machina means?  I mean, you have the definition down, but you apparently can't identify a real one.  Or rather, you misidentify something that isn't a deus ex machina as one.

It was not out of the blue at all.  That's what the Beacons were for in the first place.  This is a perfect example of Chekhov's Gun.

As for the rest... you're reaaallly stretching.  Other people have dismantled your arguments on plot holes, so I won't repeat them, but I will add that by this point you're trying to highlight or invent character inconsistency or motivation and claim those are plot holes.  They aren't the same thing by any stretch.

But let's, for the sake of argument, say that you are absolutely correct and every one of the critical plot points of ME1 is laden with more holes than ten pounds of Swiss cheese.  How does that improve or justify the same treatment of ME2?  Moreover, how does that do either of those for this comic, and how does it make the future of ME3 bright and rosy?  The whole point of this thread is that an internally consistent and well thought out universe (if not necessarily well-written, as you want to claim) is being dismantled piecemeal before our eyes, and that's got those of us who like the universe as it was first presented, as a fresh and interesting take on science fiction, a bit upset.  From that perspective, you're only making it worse.

So, you know.  Thanks for nothing.

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 20 février 2011 - 04:38 .

[Whatever42]

The beacons were there so we could chase Saren and get to the conduit. No where in the story up to that point was there even a hint that there would be some prothean counter-measure to the reapers.

No one has dismantled anything I've said. Tali begged? Saren was stupid? No one has even come up with a decent rationalization to the great fainting Reaper at the end of the game - it fainted because of a software glitch that happened with a possessed husk died? Very convenient.

I didn't start this conversation. If people just wanted to say the comic was bad fine, but people weighed in on the same hacks on ME2, saying that ME1 was all perfect. So I decided to show you how easy it is to flip things around. And the ME1 defense sounded just about like those people who tried to argue that Shepard's ressurection was not a plot hole.

The writing through all of this has been consistant. Its the same team of writers writing everything. Sure, they had a couple additional struggles with the ME2 middle chapter but overall, the same plot holes and same plot devices are present throughout. And we will see them in ME3.

Does that justify anything? Of course not. But if you want better writing, stop holding up ME1 as your ideal. In fact, I would just go find another series.

But I'll leave you all alone now. I was just trying to make a point that you won't get anyway. You can all go back to bashing everything but ME1. You can have the last word.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 20 février 2011 - 04:58 .

[implodinggoat]

Babli wrote...

"Story by Mac Walters"

Mac just doesn't seem to get the concept of continuity.

He writes really good characters (Wrex was his idea) and dialogue (so long as he's dealing with his own characters and not butchering poor Liara); but if he has an idea he likes he just doesn't seem to give a damn if it clashes with the existing backstory of an established character or organization.

The worst offenses I've seen being...

1: ME2 Cerberus bares little to no resemblence to ME1 Cerberus.  Its no longer a super secret organization; but one who's existence is common knowledge and who emblazens its emblem on bloody everything.  Furthermore even though its regarded as a terrorist organization by most people it still manages to recruit an entire crew of sane and tolerant people while still getting immense funding from private interests even though its screwed up almost every single operation its ever attempted in one way or another.

2: Liara...dear god.  After dedicating her entire life to archeology she makes the most important archeological discovery EVER and finds that all sentient life in the galaxy is in imminent danger.  On top of that the powers that be are all denying her discovery and in so doing endagering billions of lives.  So what does she do?  She abandons her life's work to pursue the Shadow Broker to avenge some random Drell who worked for Cerberus.  And then when her former commander and lover returns and asks her to help save the galaxy she tells him to ****** off because she's too busy hunting the Shadow Broker. What a steaming load of crap.

3: Shepard stops being an antiauthoritarian badass and turns into a ballless errand boy for a terrorist organization who may even be responsible for killing dozens of his men on Akuze.


Mac is really good at writing short self contained narratives and creating interesting characters; but when it comes to the main storyline he needs someone looking over his shoulder at all times.

[implodinggoat]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I didn't start this conversation. If people just wanted to say the comic was bad fine, but people weighed in on the same hacks on ME2, saying that ME1 was all perfect. So I decided to show you how easy it is to flip things around. And the ME1 defense sounded just about like those people who tried to argue that Shepard's ressurection was not a plot hole.

ME1 isn't perfect. 

1:  It has its share of plotholes (the fainting Reaper being a good example).
2:  Some of the characters don't get properly developed as the game progesses (Tali, Garrus).
3:  The side missions are mostly forgettable.
4:  There aren't as many memorable minor characters and some minor characters are very bland.
5:  There aren't as many memorable action sequences with the obvious exception of the awesome ending.

But when it comes to continuity and a central narrative which holds your interest ME1 blows ME2 out of the water.

As I said Mac Walters is really good at writing short self contained narratives and the mostly excellent recruitment and loyalty missions reflect this fact; but he's just no good at writing a long narrative which holds your interest and he allows himself to commit continuity errors in the interest of pursuing some cool idea he had which he should have abandoned because it doesn't fit in with the existing narrative.

I'm not one of the people who thinks Mac is terrible; but I recognize that he has very pronounced strengths and weaknesses as a writer and he needs to be more consciouss of his weaknesses.

[Nekemekem]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But it’s a dues ex machine without question: Saren spends years and the whole game plotting this attack and Shepard has no way to stop him until out of thin air, a VI gives them a program to defeat Saren. That is the very definition of deus ex machina: a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

Not saying that ME1 didn’t have some epic scenes but as far as the plot and story goes, it was a total mess, just like the rest of the series. But let’s face it, the people who write game plot are not people who are at the pinnacle of the craft.

Do you even know what deus ex machina means?  I mean, you have the definition down, but you apparently can't identify a real one.  Or rather, you misidentify something that isn't a deus ex machina as one.

It was not out of the blue at all.  That's what the Beacons were for in the first place.  This is a perfect example of Chekhov's Gun.

As for the rest... you're reaaallly stretching.  Other people have dismantled your arguments on plot holes, so I won't repeat them, but I will add that by this point you're trying to highlight or invent character inconsistency or motivation and claim those are plot holes.  They aren't the same thing by any stretch.

But let's, for the sake of argument, say that you are absolutely correct and every one of the critical plot points of ME1 is laden with more holes than ten pounds of Swiss cheese.  How does that improve or justify the same treatment of ME2?  Moreover, how does that do either of those for this comic, and how does it make the future of ME3 bright and rosy?  The whole point of this thread is that an internally consistent and well thought out universe (if not necessarily well-written, as you want to claim) is being dismantled piecemeal before our eyes, and that's got those of us who like the universe as it was first presented, as a fresh and interesting take on science fiction, a bit upset.  From that perspective, you're only making it worse.

So, you know.  Thanks for nothing.

Qft and then some!

[Whatever42]

Implodinggoat, I agree with you. The continuity thing is not a big deal for me - I don't care is Cerberus is portrayed differently between the two games; Cerberus in ME1 was just criminally insane anyway.



But the main missions in ME2 suffered. In ME1, the main story missions were filled with visions, renegade spectres, threatening reapers, and sinister ancient aliens.



In ME2, the main missions were fine plot-wise and maybe even a little more focused - you actually fought the Collectors instead of some proxy of a proxy. But the missions themselves were forgettable and completely overshadowed by the character missions. It drained the tension right out of the game for me.



And then such a huge gap between the Collector ship and the IFF. At least with ME1, I could pace out the main missions myself when I got bored of cookie-cutter side missions. ME2 needed far stronger story missions, some cool element (like the visions) that made you go ooooh, and at least one more story mission in the 2nd half of the game to keep up the tension.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Sable Phoenix wrote...
The whole point of this thread is that an internally consistent and well thought out universe (if not necessarily well-written, as you want to claim) is being dismantled piecemeal before our eyes, and that's got those of us who like the universe as it was first presented, as a fresh and interesting take on science fiction, a bit upset.  From that perspective, you're only making it worse.

So, you know.  Thanks for nothing.

Thank you.

<3

[Mr. MannlyMan]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Implodinggoat, I agree with you. The continuity thing is not a big deal for me - I don't care is Cerberus is portrayed differently between the two games; Cerberus in ME1 was just criminally insane anyway.

But the main missions in ME2 suffered. In ME1, the main story missions were filled with visions, renegade spectres, threatening reapers, and sinister ancient aliens.

In ME2, the main missions were fine plot-wise and maybe even a little more focused - you actually fought the Collectors instead of some proxy of a proxy. But the missions themselves were forgettable and completely overshadowed by the character missions. It drained the tension right out of the game for me.

And then such a huge gap between the Collector ship and the IFF. At least with ME1, I could pace out the main missions myself when I got bored of cookie-cutter side missions. ME2 needed far stronger story missions, some cool element (like the visions) that made you go ooooh, and at least one more story mission in the 2nd half of the game to keep up the tension.

lol

Let's not forget that we had the main villain taunting us throughout practically every main mission (well, the ones involving Collectors, anyway). So it was kind of hard to forget about the Reapers threatening us with extinction and all.

"Assuming Direct Control!"

^ At least we got a lot of internet memes out of that character.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 20 février 2011 - 05:47 .

[implodinggoat]

RE: Whatever666343431431654324

Agreed, the main missions in ME2 were fine plot wise (aside from the random shuttle ride to nowhere). Their big problem was that there wasn't any intrigue or tension driving them.

In ME1 the game kept you interested by tantalizing you with little clues that led you forward as you pursued an intriguing villain and unraveled an ancient mystery.

In ME2 the main missions are exciting when taken entirely by themselves; but there's no real sense of anticipation or intrigue about what's going to happen next.

PS: (SPOILER WARNING) Even worse the Reaper IFF mission renders most of the game redundant. I mean TIM apparently knew about the Reaper IFF from the start; but rather then sending you straight after it he has you screwing around all over the galaxy. Its indicative of Walters weakness when it comes to writing a long narrative. He basically wrote a mission which by itself gave you almost everything you needed; but couldn't think of a better reason for leading you there than having TIM knowing its location from the start yet not telling you about it for God knows what reason. (END SPOILERS)

Modifié par implodinggoat, 20 février 2011 - 05:51 .

[MadCat221]

IIRC there was some similar sentiments concerning the interactive comic strip for the PS3 version of ME2.



So apparently Dark Horse is playing fast and loose with canon.

[Terminus8]

Spaedar wrote...

Mr.Kusy wrote...

Yeah, I know Spaedar, sorry. It's just my brain rapidly turning into a raspberry jello after reading Evolution.

Haha, my sentiments exactly! 

Just read the whole thread and would like to mention all the posts by you were my heavily favored ones. Especially about the overabundance of human squadmates vs aliens. I loves me some aliens, and I don't loves me 5+ humans. Kudos to you.

That said, the comics are absolutely ghastly. Even a casual fan of the franchise like myself can pick up an issue and go "Well, how can the turians speak english already during the first contact war?" from the get go. I shouldn't notice so many things wrong if I just occasionally dive into Mass Effect. From my perspective of what I've seen as of late, it looks as if Walters is doing everything he can to villify the turians especially, and at whatever cost to canon he can manage. Seems almost like a personal crusade done out of spite, really. 

[Mighty_BOB_cnc]

MadCat221 wrote...

IIRC there was some similar sentiments concerning the interactive comic strip for the PS3 version of ME2.

So apparently Dark Horse is playing fast and loose with canon.

Well from what I gather, they get some basic info and structure from Walters and then pretty much just have at it.

[GodWood]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...
(...)

Also, Mac wrote Wrex, who you seem to think Drew wrote-Mac wrote the entire Krogan race. Jack was also interetsing if you bothered learning about her.  I agree Grunt was slightly lame, but he was designed to change the Krogan situation. ME2 also offered Thane and Samara, very intersting characters who I think (am not certain) Mac wrote. Also, I think (not certain) Mac wrote Garrus?

(...)

Samara and Thane weren't written by Mac. Thane was written by Chris L'etoile, the same writer who wrote Ashley and Legion. I forgot who wrote Samara, though, but it definitely wasn't Mac.

Jack and Samara were written by the same writer (don't remember his name) who has now left Bioware (not Mac).

[JaylaClark]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...
The whole point of this thread is that an internally consistent and well thought out universe (if not necessarily well-written, as you want to claim) is being dismantled piecemeal before our eyes, and that's got those of us who like the universe as it was first presented, as a fresh and interesting take on science fiction, a bit upset.  From that perspective, you're only making it worse.

So, you know.  Thanks for nothing.

Thank you.

<3

I've got a general gist of what's having been said to this point.  And I'd have to say this is a sentiment I agree with.

If the OP presents the concept of the comic accurately, that is.  I have to say this only because I have a clear memory of a favor done by yorkj86 regarding another comic... that in my eyes backfired spectacularly.  York recapped Redemption #4 in a page-by-page format, and in the rush to get a transcript done, I feel meanings were confused, perverted, or lost.  The result, if you feel like looking for it in the second Liara discussion thread, was... apocalyptic, with people going wild over their interpretation of the recap. 

Many months later, after LotSB, I managed to purchase the TPB of Redemption, and I was bowled over by how... wrong the impressions were.  At this point, any and all of my criticisms of Redemption are solely due to the artwork, not the story or dialogue at all, which to my eyes were both reasonable and consistent with Liara's character, barring one exception proving the rule in Afterlife.

Now, I'm not expecting such a dramatic change here.  I'm expecting retcons to be upgraded to handwaves at absolute best.  But I can see a few ways that this comic will NOT annoy my heart and soul.  I'm not entirely sure they'll happen, though ... as I've said, it's never a good sign when multiple critics have said that a game is good in spite of its main story, not because of it.

[JKoopman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Yes, because it’s an unbelievable choice. Why not give us a choice to take Joker on our missions? What if he begged?  It would be more believable than Shepard for any reason bringing along a teenager hacker.

Tali had already shown her combat skills previously in both Saren's attempted assassination of her and in tracking and disabling the geth patrol to retrieve Saren's incriminating evidence. And, being that she's a quarian, she knows a lot more about the geth than anyone else on your team and she's an electronics expert and proficient hacker as well. Seeing as you're going up against, in large part, synthetic geth in your quest to stop Saren, taking her along seems to me like a fairly prudent idea; and that goes along with the whole "she just gave you the evidence you needed to take down Saren and basically single-handedly allows for your induction into the Spectres, and all she wants in return is to be included in the mission" thing. In any case, it's certainly not an "unbelieveable" choice by any stretch, so your dramatics are ridiculous.

And unless you're desperate to see Joker break a bone, taking him into combat would be ill advised. Unless we're talking about ME2 Joker, that is; where he can suddenly walk around and fire an assault rifle whenever it's convenient for the story.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So then Sovereign should have blasted the whole colony to dust. But all they did was plant some explosives at one of the docks. The explosives were at one dock. Not all over the colony. It was not a nuke. It was explosives to blow up one meaningless dock. If Saren wanted everyone dead, nuke the colony. He has Sovereign. If he just cared about blowing up the beacon then blow it up. But timed explosives at one dock make zero sense.

Or, and I'm just going out on a limb here, maybe Saren didn't have access to a nuke and Sovereign was still trying to lay low and didn't want to start blasting craters everywhere with advanced Reaper weaponry because it would draw too much unwanted attention and potentially jeapordize his goals, so he/Saren opted instead to destroy the colony with whatever conventional weaponry was available so as not to look suspicious.

See how 10 seconds of rational thought can fill in pretty much any "plot hole" in ME1?

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Sure, we could use that explanation. Saren was just stupid. However, Saren is normally pretty efficient and this is pretty damn dumb.  I would expect such odd, out-of-character gross incompentence to be explained. Since its not, its a plot hole. A major one.

Hubris does not mean stupid. It's established that Saren thinks humans are primitive vermin who aren't on the same level as the Council races. He's also prideful and arrogant; a trait shared by most turians in the Mass Effect universe. So how is it a plot hole that Saren continually underestimates humanity? On the contrary, it seems to fit his personality to a tee.

More to the point, even if it were "out-of-character incompetence", that would make it a character inconsistency. Not a plot hole; and certainly not a "major" plot hole.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Saren was still on Virmire when you use the 2nd beacon. He didn’t run anywhere. After getting burned on the 1st beacon, he leaves the 2nd one right there. And that measly human got the 1st beacon, got him stripped of his spectre status, and defeated his forces to get the cypher, rescued Liara, and defeated a matriarch to find the location of the relay (or any 2 of those). I know Saren is arrogant but it defies all logic that he would leave it there. It’s a plot hole.

As I said, Saren was distracted by the salarian infiltration team on the other side of the compound. Ironically, this was the exact purpose of the infiltration team; to draw the attention of Saren and his forces while Shepard and co. quietly slipped in the back entrance. The fact that Saren doesn't engage you until the very end of the mission and even outright admits to believing the salarian attack was the real threat would seem to support that.

You make it out like he was sitting in his lab next to the beacon just twiddling his thumbs the whole time. That we don't know exactly what Saren was up to while Shepard was infiltrating his lab does not make it a plot hole, as much as you apparently wish it to be one.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Well, I was arguing a deus ex machine and a plot hole. Both exist. So according to your logic, the protheans figured that the Reapers would find some other way of infiltrating the Citadel and taking control and figured that some agent of that Citadel would just happened to stumble on them during this conflict so they better have a hacking program ready. Pretty thin… but ok.  They never explain why they have such a program ready so its a plothole but I'll leave your rationalization alone.

But it’s a dues ex machine without question: Saren spends years and the whole game plotting this attack and Shepard has no way to stop him until out of thin air, a VI gives them a program to defeat Saren. That is the very definition of deus ex machina: a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

The whole point of the beacons--and by association the entire plot of Mass Effect--centers around the Protheans warning future races about the Reapers and leading them to Ilos. That, wouldn't you know it, the key to defeating the Reapers happens to be on Ilos is not a deus ex machina. It's the whole point of the game.

And let me reiterate, the Citadel override was not a solution to the problem of Saren and the Conduit. It was a solution to the problem of the Reaper vanguard being able to remotely access the Citadel's control systems and directly open the portal to dark space, which was a threat the player wasn't even aware of until you spoke with Vigil on Ilos. The problem of stopping Saren was and still remained the primary task for the player, and was not solved by any "contrived and unexpected plot device" found on Ilos.

In other words, there was no deus ex machina.

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Not saying that ME1 didn’t have some epic scenes but as far as the plot and story goes, it was a total mess, just like the rest of the series. But let’s face it, the people who write game plot are not people who are at the pinnacle of the craft.

I have to ask then, if you apparently hate the stories of both ME1 and ME2, why are you even here?

Modifié par JKoopman, 20 février 2011 - 10:49 .

[Goofy McCoy]

I concur with Koopman's points.

[darknoon5]

JKoopman wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

I never said ME2's plot was superior, I merely said ME2 is a more popular game, and ME1's plot is not as flawless as many believe. The fact ME2 is more popular then ME1 shows that it's story isn't terrible, or people would not play it. It also shows despite ME1 having a superior plot, ME2 is the better game.

This is a story discussion. Coming here and saying "well, ME2 is more popular than ME1" kind of insinuates that you're implying that ME2's story is better simply because ME2 was recieved better, which is certainly not the case. As I pointed out, ME2's lackluster and disjointed story was universally panned in reviews. And in a discussion on the future of Mass Effect's story, that's kind of the only relevant point.

Understandable. My point was that the story is not terrible, or the game would not be so popular.

darknoon5 wrote...

I don't think anybody's debating that ME1's plot is superior to ME2's, but the problem is when people start saying a passable plot is a "trainwreck." The comics plotline is cheap and nasty, the games isn't.

It's certainly a trainwreck when compared to ME1's story. Compared to Modern Warfare 2 or some other generic tripe, it's probably not too bad. But I'm not posting here on the BSN because I'm a fan of MW2. I post here because I'm a fan of Mass Effect; and as Mass Effect stories go, ME2's was extremely disappointing.

Compared to ME1's story, it isn't that dissapointing. ME1 was full of cliches and plot holes, too, but it didn't have to worry about contradicting the lore nearly as much, however the biotic lore is a mess compared to ME1. The middle chapter is always the hardest to pull off imo, sa well.

darknoon5 wrote...

Some of your complaints are unfair. You were forced to work for Cerberus, omg you were also forced to be a spectre and work for the council! You were also forced to be human, the travesty!

Being a Spectre and working with the Council isn't something that goes against Shepard's very character. Cerberus had been established as a terrorist organization in ME1 and they're known to have not only caused the Akuze thresher maw attack on the Sole Survivor Shepard's squad but actually performed horrific experiments on the only other surviving member of that squad. The fact that not only are you railroaded into working with them in ME2 but actually have no opportunity to give voice to these past actions is kind of a big deal.

Er yes, working for the council definetly goes against racist Shepard's character. Some people RP their Shep's as cerberus supporters who hate the Alien triumvite-they still have to work with them.


Your Shepard works with Cerberus either because they agree with
Cerberus, or because it's for the greater good. In real life, sometimes
you have to work with people you don't like to acomplish good things.
You can ditch them at the end, and screw with their work throughout the
game and DLC, so what's the problem?

I agree not being able to mention Akuze is lazy and poor, however LoTSB slightly rectifies this.

darknoon5 wrote...

Humans being the focus was always the centre, like it or not. I too am not a fan of the genetically diverse thing, but hey, as the books explain, humans are becoming less genetically diverse as well.

Humans being the heroes, yes. But even you admit that the "genetically unique" angle was garbage.

Drew is responsible for the genetically unique thing. Read ascension. As humanity are the newcomers, their species still has more variety compared to te Quarians. I don't like it, but it's not a huge problem.

darknoon5 wrote...

Horizon was more realistic then the two squadmates jumping boat and joining up. It was poorly done, but not unrealistic as you seem to be complaining aboiut the rest of ME2's plot. The cerberus line was stupid, sure, but they weren't exactly going to be rational after seeing somebody dead for 2 years back in the flesh, especially if you romanced them.

There's a big difference between being caught off-guard at the sight of a resurrected Shepard and "Oh, hi! Even though you just saved not only me but half the colony from what was obviously an alien attack, I'm going to blame Cerberus--a human organization--for the abductions of all these missing colonists that you yourself, working on behalf of Cerberus, are putting a stop to! And despite our long history together, the fact that you saved the galaxy from the Reapers two years ago when no one else believed in you (I was there, after all) and the aforementioned saving of me and half the colony from those mysterious aliens a moment ago who are clearly Cerberus operatives in disguise, you're a traitor to the Alliance and I'm not going to believe a word you say!"

The later is just idiotic. Again, it's like characters are struck blind, deaf and dumb whenever it's conveneient to the story. That's bad writing.

Obviously it's not great writing, but what dd you want? "Hey Shepard, cool you're working with Cerberus and all, even though the alliance hates them. I've just seen the colony I've been protecting get abducted, and you're suddenly a zombie back from the dead, but that's cool with me. Lets go save the galaxy!"

The rest of your post I can't really comment on.

I've interjected my views in. They're supposed to be in red, but the messed up forum doesn't seem to be working, so I bolded them as well.

Modifié par darknoon5, 20 février 2011 - 11:36 .

[darknoon5]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

We are not saying that Mac Walters can't write characters, we are saying he oviously have problems with following what was already estabilished.

Koopman was.

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

(...)

Also,
Mac wrote Wrex, who you seem to think Drew wrote-Mac wrote the entire
Krogan race. Jack was also interetsing if you bothered learning about
her.  I agree Grunt was slightly lame, but he was designed to change the
Krogan situation. ME2 also offered Thane and Samara, very intersting
characters who I think (am not certain) Mac wrote. Also, I think (not
certain) Mac wrote Garrus?

(...)

Samara and Thane
weren't written by Mac. Thane was written by Chris E'Ltoile, the same
writer who wrote Ashley and Legion. I forgot who wrote Samara, though,
but it definitely wasn't Mac.

Thank you for cearing that up.
My point still stands-Mac wrote Wrex, Garrus and the Krogan.