602 réponses à ce sujet

[Silentmode]

Ugh. This comic isn't all that important compared to the actual games but I'm glad I'm not reading it. The synopsis in the OP makes it sound really screwed up, inconsistensies and weird similarities everywhere. I mean really, they weren't creative enough to come up with something unique for TIM's backstory than just copy pasting Shepards from ME1.

[darknoon5]

Silentmode wrote...

Ugh. This comic isn't all that important compared to the actual games but I'm glad I'm not reading it. The synopsis in the OP makes it sound really screwed up, inconsistensies and weird similarities everywhere. I mean really, they weren't creative enough to come up with something unique for TIM's backstory than just copy pasting Shepards from ME1.

My thoughts as well.

[iNixiRir]

Everyone does realize that Mac isn't the only one deciding the story for ME3? And he also wasn't the one deciding everything for ME2.

[Silentmode]

iNixiRir wrote...

Everyone does realize that Mac isn't the only one deciding the story for ME3? And he also wasn't the one deciding everything for ME2.

Agreed, Mac is blamed too much. A lot of people don't realize that  the ENTIRE main story for the trilogy was written before ME1 was ever even released. If you don't like the story in ME2 don't use Mac as a scapegoat blame the entire writing and creative direction team. I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

[darknoon5]

Silentmode wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

Everyone does realize that Mac isn't the only one deciding the story for ME3? And he also wasn't the one deciding everything for ME2.

Agreed, Mac is blamed too much. A lot of people don't realize that  the ENTIRE main story for the trilogy was written before ME1 was ever even released. If you don't like the story in ME2 don't use Mac as a scapegoat blame the entire writing and creative direction team. I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

I've been trying to say this for about 14 pages, I wouldn't expect anybody to actually listen to reason.

[Gleym]

Silentmode wrote...
Agreed, Mac is blamed too much. A lot of people don't realize that  the ENTIRE main story for the trilogy was written before ME1 was ever even released. If you don't like the story in ME2 don't use Mac as a scapegoat blame the entire writing and creative direction team. I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

Yeah, just like the entire universe was written before the release. You know, the entire universe that had pre-established lore but then already got retconned by the second game's release, whom Mac was the lead writer for, pissing several people off?

Modifié par Gleym, 20 février 2011 - 12:05 .

[darknoon5]

Gleym wrote...

Silentmode wrote...
Agreed, Mac is blamed too much. A lot of people don't realize that  the ENTIRE main story for the trilogy was written before ME1 was ever even released. If you don't like the story in ME2 don't use Mac as a scapegoat blame the entire writing and creative direction team. I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

Yeah, just like the entire universe was written before the release. You know, the entire universe that had pre-established lore but then already got retconned by the second game's release, whom Mac was the lead writer for, pissing several people off?

The universe in every sci-fi universe changes regularly. If you can't handle that, don't partake in them, whether the universe is being portrayed in book, game or movie. As I said, the lore of the universe is contradicted by ME1 for gameplay reasons, many of the contradictions in ME2 are for the same reasons.

[iNixiRir]

Silentmode wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...



Everyone does realize that Mac isn't the only one deciding the story for ME3? And he also wasn't the one deciding everything for ME2.

Agreed, Mac is blamed too much. A lot of people don't realize that the ENTIRE main story for the trilogy was written before ME1 was ever even released. If you don't like the story in ME2 don't use Mac as a scapegoat blame the entire writing and creative direction team. I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

I don't really know if the entire main story was already set. Because Bioware never knew if ME1 was going to be successful enough to continue. But the fact remains that Casey has the most influence and stuff is decided as a team.

[Silentmode]

Gleym wrote...

Silentmode wrote...

Agreed, Mac is blamed too much. A lot of people don't realize that the ENTIRE main story for the trilogy was written before ME1 was ever even released. If you don't like the story in ME2 don't use Mac as a scapegoat blame the entire writing and creative direction team. I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

Yeah, just like the entire universe was written before the release. You know, the entire universe that had pre-established lore but then already got retconned by the second game's release, whom Mac was the lead writer for, pissing several people off?

What retcons occured during ME2's story. And no, a story element that you don't personally like or one that was made for gameplay purposes does not count as a retcon.

[Silentmode]

iNixiRir wrote...

Silentmode wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

Everyone does realize that Mac isn't the only one deciding the story for ME3? And he also wasn't the one deciding everything for ME2.

Agreed, Mac is blamed too much. A lot of people don't realize that the ENTIRE main story for the trilogy was written before ME1 was ever even released. If you don't like the story in ME2 don't use Mac as a scapegoat blame the entire writing and creative direction team. I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

I don't really know if the entire main story was already set. Because Bioware never knew if ME1 was going to be successful enough to continue. But the fact remains that Casey has the most influence and stuff is decided as a team.

I'm pretty sure they made it clear from the get-go it was a planned trilogy. You don't make that statement unless you already have the groundwork laid for said trilogy.

[Gleym]

Silentmode wrote...

Gleym wrote...

Silentmode wrote...
Agreed, Mac is blamed too much. A lot of people don't realize that the ENTIRE main story for the trilogy was written before ME1 was ever even released. If you don't like the story in ME2 don't use Mac as a scapegoat blame the entire writing and creative direction team. I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

Yeah, just like the entire universe was written before the release. You know, the entire universe that had pre-established lore but then already got retconned by the second game's release, whom Mac was the lead writer for, pissing several people off?

What retcons occured during ME2's story. And no, a story element that you don't personally like or one that was made for gameplay purposes does not count as a retcon.

In other words "You're not allowed to dislike anything, so shut up and just accept it." Okay, I can play this game too. You tell me how Mac is such a great lead writer, but you're not allowed to mention anything that you liked about his work.

[Kusy]

I personaly don't belive that the whole trilogy's story was made before Mass Effect 1 got released.

There were changes in Mass Effect 2 story even between recording the VO and game going gold so heck - how am I suposed to belive that the whole three games had pre estabilished plot? Even the marketing videos such as "Mass Effect Enemies" make no sense when looking at them from today's perspective (all the shit talk about Legion stalking Shepard and being obsessed with him). Even the first ever cinematic trailer (Again, the one with Legion) has nothing to do with the actual game when you look at it now. It's like those videos were advertising a compleatly diffrent story than actualy showed up to be in game.

Sorry for the Star Wars reference, but I don't consider Lucas the master of storytelling, Star Wars is more filled with inconsistencies and stupid things than anything of such scale but at least all the movies actualy do feel like a part of something bigger, there I can actualy belive that he already had in mind what the prequel saga was going to look like when filming the original one. With Mass Effect - I don't.

And @ people who say that other people shouldn't blame Mr. Walters for the story. He is the lead writer. When something goes wrong - that's exacly what happens and what's suposed to happen - leader of the team is responsible for the final effect of whatever the whole team was doing and if someone feel that he should blame someone, he SHOULD blame the leader. I feel that writing team did great job on the companions, they made deep and interesting characters (for video games characters they are) but they compleatly failed creating a place for those characters in the story. And please don't jump on me with "characters were the story".

Again, if Mass Effect 3 is going in this direction of storytelling that Evolution went, it most likely will be a nice heroic adventure with a lot of things that doesn't make sense, hooded electro zombies, characters suddenly learning computer skills like in Matrix without any explanation or sense and general storm of actionlike elements - most likely it will be an enjoyable and good game. But I won't be happy with it.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 20 février 2011 - 12:41 .

[Silentmode]

Gleym wrote...

Silentmode wrote...

Gleym wrote...

Silentmode wrote...
Agreed, Mac is blamed too much. A lot of people don't realize that the ENTIRE main story for the trilogy was written before ME1 was ever even released. If you don't like the story in ME2 don't use Mac as a scapegoat blame the entire writing and creative direction team. I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

Yeah, just like the entire universe was written before the release. You know, the entire universe that had pre-established lore but then already got retconned by the second game's release, whom Mac was the lead writer for, pissing several people off?

What retcons occured during ME2's story? And no, a story element that you don't personally like or one that was made for gameplay purposes does not count as a retcon.

In other words "You're not allowed to dislike anything, so shut up and just accept it." Okay, I can play this game too. You tell me how Mac is such a great lead writer, but you're not allowed to mention anything that you liked about his work.

I'm saying that because you don't like Shep working for Cerberus, or the way the VS scene on Horizon was handled, or any other part of the story you don't like doesn't make it a retcon. Nothing to my recolection was retconned in the main story of ME2, only small details in the codex for the sake of gameplay changes which is really something out of the hands of the writers. And no, I'm not saying you're not allowed to dislike something because I like it, offer whatever critisism you want. I'm not sure why you responded the way you did, I was earnestly asking you what retcon you were refering to. Not trying to sound defensive if thats how you took it.

Modifié par Silentmode, 20 février 2011 - 12:35 .

[darknoon5]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

I personaly don't belive that the whole trilogy's story was made before Mass Effect 1 got released.

There were changes in Mass Effect 2 story even between recording the VO and game going gold so heck - how am I suposed to belive that the whole three games had pre estabilished plot? Even the marketing videos such as "Mass Effect Enemies" make no sense when looking at them from today's perspective (all the shit talk about Legion stalking Shepard and being obsessed with him). Even the first ever cinematic trailer (Again, the one with Legion) has nothing to do with the actual game when you look at it now. It's like those videos were advertising a compleatly diffrent story than actualy showed up to be in game.

Sorry for the Star Wars reference, but I don't consider Lucas the master of storytelling, Star Wars is more filled with inconsistencies and stupid things than anything of such scale but at least all the movies actualy do feel like a part of something bigger, there I can actualy belive that he already had in mind what the prequel saga was going to look like when filming the original one. With Mass Effect - I don't.

Obviously parts have been re-written, but I imagine most of the major parts of the story, ie. the begining, middle and end were wrote from the start.

Legion's character was written solely for ME2, not from before ME1, remember. They originally just added the N7 armor to make him look more interesting, it wasn't originally part of his backstory.

Also, Legion's recruitment was meant to be different but was merged with the IFF, and he was meant to stalk you, but for whatever reason it was cut. You were also meant to play as him in the prolouge, but again, cut.

[Silentmode]

Spaedar wrote...

I understand it's less than appealing to sift through a thread that's derailed into people filling it up with pointless "nuh-uh" "yuh-huh" back and forth.
Fact remains that Walters have in several interviews stated what he is and isn't responsible for. His current role is lead writer - yes it is him you should point at. This is Bioware's forum, read by the devs who I'm fairly certain are able to discern the complaints, constructive or not, for what they are.
Walters is in this case 100% responsible for the writing in the Evolution comic that he also considers "great Mass Effect story and a great comic book story". To me this is questionable.

If you feel like defending Walters' work, make a new thread about it, please. Here we don't like Walters work and the impact the comic possibly has for the plot in Mass Effect 3.

The comic (by the sound of it) is horrible and I won't defend him on that front it is entirely his work. But ME2 I will because there is a strong possibility he didn't even write the main story for it (which is what most people dislike about it) and I personally think he did a magnificant job of writing the companions which to me was the real "story" in ME2. Just my two cents.

[kidbd15]

I believe the overarching story of ME1-3 was already established before ME1 was even made. And the story is a group effort... Mac didn't write the entire thing by himself, nor did Drew for ME1. So regardless of the direction people want ME3 to go in, there really is no point since the story has already been established years ago. Especially now, since the game is being programmed and the story has already been written.



So:

1) Save your breath and stop complaining, you can't change what ME3 will be at this point.

2) Enjoy the series and game for what they are, you'll be much happier because, again, you can't change what ME3 will be at this point.

3) Wait till ME3 comes out, then voice your opinion about that for the sake of future ME games.

4) Mac Walters is a real person, who is trying his best to make this work. If you dislike some of his work, state your dislikes, say why, but ALSO state your likes and why. Just don't call it a trainwreck and call him an a**hole, because frankly, that makes you an a**hole. Give constructive feedback without being d*cks.

[didymos1120]

Silentmode wrote...
 I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

Just like the main plot wasn't all Mac (or for that matter, Drew on ME1), neither were the individual missions or characters.  Those were divvied up to various writers, and things got revised and swapped around a lot too during development.  Patrick Weekes explained a lot about the writing process in a series of posts in a thread on the old forums.  I'll quote the first one, in response to a "How does the writing work?" question, entirely:

I was playing with my kids, dangit!

First off, I am LEAD of NOTHING. Leads don't generally have time to hang out on the board.

This is actually a trickier question than you might think. The basic issue here is that the project is fluid enough that no one writer HAS everything about an area. We're all part of a team, and saying "I wrote _____" gives the impression that nobody else did any work on that area. Which is a not-true impression in almost all cases.

For example, what if someone else planned a level, but I wrote that level? What if someone else did a rough draft, but I rewrote it from the ground up after we switched off who was doing what? It's murky, and that murkiness makes it really easy for it to look like I'm taking credit for some other writer's incredibly hard work.

(And this says nothing about other departments at all. Some of my favorite character moments have no words in them -- they're moments where, to use a football metaphor, I just lofted the ball up there and trusted that a Cinematic Designer would do something awesome. And then there's the unique art that makes every follower into someone who is going to stand out in a crowd, and the level design that gives your follower a chance to shine, and... so on.)

So, with all those disclaimers:

You've seen that the structure of the game is built around the squad. Finding them, recruiting them, keeping them alive. We tried to divide up our writing by squad member, then, instead of by planet.

I was very deeply involved (as in, either wrote their plot or did an almost-ground-up rewrite) with two followers -- Tali'Zorah and one you haven't seen yet. When the lead writers had to give up some of their followers in order to tackle more of the critical path of the game (critpath == the main story sections, analogous to "Eden Prime" or "becoming a Spectre" in terms of not being a normal planet, but having a ton of focused attention on it), I finished off the work that they had started on a couple of other squad members, specifically parts of Miranda and another unannounced follower.

On top of that, I was lucky enough to get to write some of the fun roleplaying plots, like I got to do on ME1. And I've been the writer working with the combat guys on sound sets ("ENEMIES EVERYWHERE!"), so I wrote most of the generic talking enemies you'll hear in the game. And lately I've been working on journals (though our awesome QA guys, who know every plot in the game, actually put in most of the raw data, so it was just a "Make sure they all sound kinda samey" pass) and the paragon/renegade pass.

That may sound like a lot, but every writer on the project has to wear a lot of hats. The leads spent a ton of time carefully honing the critical path of the game, helping to cast major characters and sit in on their recording sessions, and keep everything on track. We've got (I think) more roleplaying plots in this game than we did in the last game, and almost everyone worked on some of those. We've got a galaxy map filled with planets, a bunch of new codex entries, lots of item descriptions, and so on... along with things we haven't announced yet.

So we've all managed to keep busy.

BTW, on that same thread, I found this response about who wrote Liara in ME2:

Travis: Drew, I believe, wrote Liara in ME1. It was Drew, with both Mac and me doing some touching up after Drew left for warmer climates, in ME2.

So, if you really hated that stuff, seems that was largely Drew's fault.

[kidbd15]

didymos1120 wrote...

Silentmode wrote...
 I personally think he did a great job of writing the companions, their recruitment, and their loyalty missions... big improvement from the writing for them in ME1.

Just like the main plot wasn't all Mac (or for that matter, Drew on ME1), neither were the individual missions or characters.  Those were divvied up to various writers, and things got revised and swapped around a lot too during development.  Patrick Weekes explained a lot about the writing process in a series of posts in a thread on the old forums.  I'll quote the first one, in response to a "How does the writing work?" question, entirely:

I was playing with my kids, dangit!

First off, I am LEAD of NOTHING. Leads don't generally have time to hang out on the board.

This is actually a trickier question than you might think. The basic issue here is that the project is fluid enough that no one writer HAS everything about an area. We're all part of a team, and saying "I wrote _____" gives the impression that nobody else did any work on that area. Which is a not-true impression in almost all cases.

For example, what if someone else planned a level, but I wrote that level? What if someone else did a rough draft, but I rewrote it from the ground up after we switched off who was doing what? It's murky, and that murkiness makes it really easy for it to look like I'm taking credit for some other writer's incredibly hard work.

(And this says nothing about other departments at all. Some of my favorite character moments have no words in them -- they're moments where, to use a football metaphor, I just lofted the ball up there and trusted that a Cinematic Designer would do something awesome. And then there's the unique art that makes every follower into someone who is going to stand out in a crowd, and the level design that gives your follower a chance to shine, and... so on.)

So, with all those disclaimers:

You've seen that the structure of the game is built around the squad. Finding them, recruiting them, keeping them alive. We tried to divide up our writing by squad member, then, instead of by planet.

I was very deeply involved (as in, either wrote their plot or did an almost-ground-up rewrite) with two followers -- Tali'Zorah and one you haven't seen yet. When the lead writers had to give up some of their followers in order to tackle more of the critical path of the game (critpath == the main story sections, analogous to "Eden Prime" or "becoming a Spectre" in terms of not being a normal planet, but having a ton of focused attention on it), I finished off the work that they had started on a couple of other squad members, specifically parts of Miranda and another unannounced follower.

On top of that, I was lucky enough to get to write some of the fun roleplaying plots, like I got to do on ME1. And I've been the writer working with the combat guys on sound sets ("ENEMIES EVERYWHERE!"), so I wrote most of the generic talking enemies you'll hear in the game. And lately I've been working on journals (though our awesome QA guys, who know every plot in the game, actually put in most of the raw data, so it was just a "Make sure they all sound kinda samey" pass) and the paragon/renegade pass.

That may sound like a lot, but every writer on the project has to wear a lot of hats. The leads spent a ton of time carefully honing the critical path of the game, helping to cast major characters and sit in on their recording sessions, and keep everything on track. We've got (I think) more roleplaying plots in this game than we did in the last game, and almost everyone worked on some of those. We've got a galaxy map filled with planets, a bunch of new codex entries, lots of item descriptions, and so on... along with things we haven't announced yet.

So we've all managed to keep busy.

BTW, on that same thread, I found this response about who wrote Liara in ME2:

Travis: Drew, I believe, wrote Liara in ME1. It was Drew, with both Mac and me doing some touching up after Drew left for warmer climates, in ME2.

So, if you really hated that stuff, seems that was largely Drew's fault.

Thank you! Now maybe people can stop pouring the hate on Mac.   It's a writing TEAM!

[Nekemekem]

Ooooooooooooooooooooooy vey...

Edit: I think I'll come back when people stop plopping in to reduce everyone trying to discuss this ****ty comic to toddlers that never once thought it took more than one person to write the story for vidya gaemses. And also that we're by and large way too daft to realize these two lead authors worked on the same team for several years. NOOO?

You don't kinda think that we are just as educated with just as much insight into the series as you are? No? Yeah my bad. We're here cus we see him writin' so we hatin'.

Modifié par Nekemekem, 20 février 2011 - 01:57 .

[Nekemekem]

Some might call this nitpicking or whatever, but as I was reading the wiki for the First Contact War (I know it's updated by fans, I know, I know) I noticed that it had changed from the initial entry that states that "fortunately for humanity, the Council intervened".

Now was it just me or did issue #2 suggest that the humans were "on the verge of winning"? As quoted by the space cowboy badass military dude from Avatar - sorry, General Williams.



To even open the comic with phrases like;

"When the turians launch the First Contact War...."

"The truth behind the turians' goals..."

"Left at the mercy of the turians...if such a thing exists..."



/SIGH