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[erilben]

didymos1120 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Oh wow.

You people do realize that the story has been planned by Drew a long time before ME1 was released, right?

Actually, how much control do the lead writers have over the main storyline?  Yeah, they're responsible for seeing it implemented, but I'd bet it's far less than most people around here assume.  Not that they don't have significant input, because we know the main plots of each game are first worked out with Casey Hudson, the lead writer, and the lead designer, but, well, they're just plain not the boss of ME.  

I don't know if it's the same for Mass Effect, but the lead writer on Dragon Age always makes it out like the lead designer is the one with the most control.

"I think some people picture it as top down, like the writer says "this is what I’m writing," and everybody else in the company runs around to implement our vision. That’s not quite the way it is.

The overall vision is the responsibility of the lead designer. The other disciplines, like the combat designers or level designers, add their two cents...like "we’d like to try this" or "can we do a quest that focuses on this gameplay element."

Once you’ve got that broken down, it’s a matter of the writer putting together the dialogue for it. We try that out and see if it’s fun and revise and then try it out again and then revise. You end up throwing out a lot of stuff you worked on."

"As a lead writer, you get a little bit more freedom -- I’m given parameters as in "this is what we need the story to be" or the lead designer talks to me about the overall vision for the story.

We toss ideas back and forth. And then in the end, once I understand the parameters that the game’s story has to be made with, and I create that.

Inside those parameters, I actually have a lot of freedom, so that part is gratifying. It’s not a case of me deciding I want to write this story. In that respect, I have little freedom [laughs]."

http://www.bitmob.co...writing-process

Mr. Gaider is always saying something like this too:
"It's not "my" world (I'm not even the Lead Designer, please remember). There have been a lot of hands in creating this, as always."

http://forums.biowar...forum=135&sp=15

Modifié par erilben, 21 février 2011 - 08:53 .

[Phaedon]

Therion942 wrote...

Why yes. Mass Effect was planned from the start.

Too bad they moved the only man with a plan on to some worthless MMO.
One day they'll release a sequel for Mass Effect.

Yeah, too bad that Mac Walters has no access to this masterplan, right.

didymos1120 wrote...
My point is that "the story has been planned by Drew" is not something we know was actually the case. Unless someone's got a source.  Based on the sources we do have about how the writing works,  I highly doubt it was just Drew.  It was far more likely planned by a number of people, and Drew definitely would not have had the final word.

I have seen it multiple times, and I remember hearing it in the making of of ME1 lately. Drew or not, what's the point of the source? Did the concept change in the middle of the series, yes or no?

Modifié par Phaedon, 21 février 2011 - 08:52 .

[didymos1120]

Phaedon wrote...

I have seen it multiple times, and I remember hearing it in the making of of ME1 lately. Drew or not, what's the point of the source? Did the concept change in the middle of the series, yes or no?

Why do you keep bringing this "change" stuff up?  I've never said a word about that. That was other people.  I'm talking solely about how much creative control the lead writers actually have. Nothing else.  What I'm getting at is that this "planned by Drew" notion is the basically the other side of the "Mac sucks and ruined the plan" coin. I.e., Mac gets too much blame, and Drew gets too much credit.  I don't find it plausible that Drew just went off, planned out the ME trilogy, turned in the plan, and they started in on it.  He may have been responsible for putting together initial outlines or the like, but I really doubt he did so before the story was worked out in a process where he was just one voice, and not the most important one.

Modifié par didymos1120, 21 février 2011 - 09:02 .

[Phaedon]

didymos1120 wrote...
Why do you keep bringing this "change" stuff up?  I've never said a word about that. That was other people.  I'm talking solely about how much creative control the lead writers actually have. Nothing else.  What I'm getting at is that this "planned by Drew" notion is the basically the other side of the "Mac sucks and ruined the plan" coin. I.e., Mac gets too much blame, and Drew gets too much credit.  I don't find it plausible that Drew just went off, planned out the ME trilogy, turned in the plan, and they started in on it.  He may have been responsible for putting together initial outlines or the like, but I really doubt he did so before the story was worked out in a process where he was just one voice, and not the most important one.

This is not a debate I want to start. Do we agree that the trilogy was planned from the start?

[ciaweth]

Whether or not we agree that the trilogy was planned from the start, one thing is clear: BioWare has simply not released enough information on the creation of the Mass Effect series' plot for any of us to pretend to speak with authority on it.



I so wish people would stop making up horror scenarios, scaring themselves, and then then treating those horror scenarios as fact on the forums in order to justify public pant-pooping.

[didymos1120]

Phaedon wrote...

Do we agree that the trilogy was planned from the start?

To some extent, yes:

Joystiq: Well speaking of that, you know the second game and third game are being written together, whereas the first game was sort of written off by itself. Do you ...

Mac Walters: Ah, not quite. That's not really true with the way we handle that sort of thing. Like, I mean we had, essentially, with the first one we said, "Here's the art for the three games." Now obviously what's in Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3 wasn't really fleshed out. We said, "We know basically where we want to go with it." But we wrote Mass Effect 1 with that in mind. You know, we said, "Here's where we want it to go." If you ask Casey Hudson, the producer, he knew where he wanted Mass Effect 3 to eventually end up. Obviously we had [Mass Effect 1] behind us. We still don't know where [Mass Effect 3's] going to go, and maybe it's shifting and changing a little bit based on where you want to be flexible too. But we still wrote it within that framework.

[Briallen]

ciaweth wrote...

Whether or not we agree that the trilogy was planned from the start, one thing is clear: BioWare has simply not released enough information on the creation of the Mass Effect series' plot for any of us to pretend to speak with authority on it.

I so wish people would stop making up horror scenarios, scaring themselves, and then then treating those horror scenarios as fact on the forums in order to justify public pant-pooping.

This.

[RiouHotaru]

...I'm still reeling from the fact Revelation had a huge steaming pile dumped on it due to Evolution #2. I realize I'm a bit late to the party, but come ON. Did he even read the novel, or did they decide to just say "Whatever, this is how it really happened."



I mean, the whole thing behind Saren was his brother's death and his brother is CLEARLY alive. So what, his motivation is that he and his brother are blatant racists who apparently despise humanity so much they're single-handedly pushing forward a conspiracy? I mean...what?!

[Zulu_DFA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

...I'm still reeling from the fact Revelation had a huge steaming pile dumped on it due to Evolution #2. I realize I'm a bit late to the party, but come ON. Did he even read the novel, or did they decide to just say "Whatever, this is how it really happened."

I mean, the whole thing behind Saren was his brother's death and his brother is CLEARLY alive. So what, his motivation is that he and his brother are blatant racists who apparently despise humanity so much they're single-handedly pushing forward a conspiracy? I mean...what?!

Goddamnit, 2157 is like 8 years ahead of 2165!!!

And it's clear as day TIM's gonna smoke Saren's brother by #4!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 février 2011 - 11:20 .

[RiouHotaru]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...I'm still reeling from the fact Revelation had a huge steaming pile dumped on it due to Evolution #2. I realize I'm a bit late to the party, but come ON. Did he even read the novel, or did they decide to just say "Whatever, this is how it really happened."

I mean, the whole thing behind Saren was his brother's death and his brother is CLEARLY alive. So what, his motivation is that he and his brother are blatant racists who apparently despise humanity so much they're single-handedly pushing forward a conspiracy? I mean...what?!

Goddamnit, 2157 is like 8 years ahead of 2165!!!

And it's clear as day TIM's gonna smoke Saren's brother by #4!

Except Revelation clearly states Saren's brother died in the First Contact War.  Except now the FCW is already over.  So how do we explain this then?

[JKoopman]

Walker White wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

And if you really enjoyed ME1 and haven't seen it yet, watch the Babylon 5 series. 

Ah yes.  Another storyline that was supposed to have been completely plotted in advance, but everyone knows actually was not.  And which completely fell apart at the end (e.g. half-way through season 4).

Agreed. I remember Babylon 5 falling apart right around the time Sheridan threw himself down that chasm on the Shadow homeworld and then was magically resurrected by the "First One".

Ironic similarities to ME2 abound.

And to everyone saying that the story for all three games was written in advance, you do understand the difference between story and plot, right? While I don't doubt that much of the plot was written in advance, the story bits that tie it all together and make it alive and believable are written on the fly. It's the same way authors write novels; you start with an outline of the major plot points, then you fill in the blanks on the fly as you write. Sometimes that means changing parts of the original outline as well if you feel it better suits the story (and if you're the new lead writer working off someone else's outline, chances are you're going to have a lot of ideas that you feel "better suit the story").

Poor story is what causes inconsistencies and plot holes. Not surprisingly, it's those story bits where ME2 fails. Unless you trully think that everything down to how Kaidan/Ashley irrationally react to you on Horizon was planned out way back in 2006...? Do people actually believe that? If the entirety of the story was written out 5 years ago, why would there still be writers working on the team?

Modifié par JKoopman, 22 février 2011 - 01:24 .

[packardbell]

my goodness he's proving to be worse than karen traviss.. and that's saying a lot.

[RiouHotaru]

...I saw that huge post about "Find me someone who doesn't think ME2's plot is trash!" bit...and honestly, I didn't mind it at all. The only weakness I found with the story was the bit at the end where the entire team takes the shuttle. And I just accepted that as a necessary (if poorly executed) plot device. Obviously under other circumstances the shuttle part would've made more sense. But that alone wasn't enough for me to call "Story ruined, gg Mass Effect."



But then apparently I'm one of those folks that's killing the gaming industry because I don't find fault with every little thing.

[Zulu_DFA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...I'm still reeling from the fact Revelation had a huge steaming pile dumped on it due to Evolution #2. I realize I'm a bit late to the party, but come ON. Did he even read the novel, or did they decide to just say "Whatever, this is how it really happened."

I mean, the whole thing behind Saren was his brother's death and his brother is CLEARLY alive. So what, his motivation is that he and his brother are blatant racists who apparently despise humanity so much they're single-handedly pushing forward a conspiracy? I mean...what?!

Goddamnit, 2157 is like 8 years ahead of 2165!!!

And it's clear as day TIM's gonna smoke Saren's brother by #4!

Except Revelation clearly states Saren's brother died in the First Contact War.  Except now the FCW is already over.  So how do we explain this then?

Except this happens to be the exact quote from Revelation:

“Personal information on Spectres is sealed,” she [Ambassdor Anita Goyle] told him [Lt. Commander David Anderson], “but our intel dug up something interesting. Seems he lost his brother during the First Contact War.”

[RiouHotaru]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Except this happens to be the exact quote from Revelation:

“Personal information on Spectres is sealed,” she [Ambassdor Anita Goyle] told him [Lt. Commander David Anderson], “but our intel dug up something interesting. Seems he lost his brother during the First Contact War.”

Oh come on, even you have to admit it's a fairly big leap from "Seems to have died during the FCW" and "Long after the FCW his brother was killed."  I mean,  General Williams met Saren's brother.  Quite a few people saw him.  It's freaking OBVIOUS that he's not dead.  How would the intel be that far off.

[didymos1120]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Except Revelation clearly states Saren's brother died in the First Contact War.  Except now the FCW is already over.  So how do we explain this then?

Well, actually, it's not exactly "clearly", as seen in the quote Zulu posted.  There's plenty of wiggle-room there, given that sealed personal information and the "[s]eems".  And all the stuff about the dead brother being Saren's motivation comes from Anderson's speculation during one of his POV chapters. In fact, that's all right after that quote.  The closest Saren himself ever comes to saying or thinking anything like that at all (and that'd also be the only time he even comes that close, period.  We certainly never hear a word about the brother in ME1) is much earlier in the novel, when he busts another turian who sold arms to humans.  He just talks about how he saw a lot of turians die in the FCW. 

[Zulu_DFA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

"Long after the FCW his brother was killed."

Making things up.

It's obvious TIM's trip to Illium takes place within weeks after the armistice.

Since Desolas had been involved in the fighting on Shanxi, and would die in a incident directly related to the war, there is nothing prohibiting that in a few years Desolas would be reported as "died in the war".

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 février 2011 - 12:15 .

[RiouHotaru]

didymos1120 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Except Revelation clearly states Saren's brother died in the First Contact War.  Except now the FCW is already over.  So how do we explain this then?

Well, actually, it's not exactly "clearly", as seen in the quote Zulu posted.  There's plenty of wiggle-room there, given that sealed personal information and the "[s]eems".  And all the stuff about the dead brother being Saren's motivation comes from Anderson's speculation during one of his POV chapters. In fact, that's all right after that quote.  The closest Saren himself ever comes to saying or thinking anything like that at all (and that'd also be the only time he even comes that close, period.  We certainly never hear a word about the brother in ME1) is much earlier in the novel, when he busts another turian who sold arms to humans.  He just talks about how he saw a lot of turians die in the FCW. 

Okay, you have a point.  It's still just a wee-bit aggravating that we have two sources of information now which are in conflict with one another.  That and I'm starting to dread Evolution #3 at this point.  Again, the whole thing is starting to look more and more like the entire thing was some vast turian conspiracy.  And on top of that, it's actually becoming more difficult for me to like TIM's character.  I liked it more when he was an engimatic, aloof, rich jerk.  Him being sympathetic and a Shepard expy is ruining him for me.

[RiouHotaru]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Making things up.

It's obvious TIM's trip to Illium takes place within weeks after the armistice.

Since Desolas had involved in the fighting on Shanxi, and would to die in a incident directly related to the war, there is nothing prohibiting that in a few years Desolas would be reported as "died in the war".

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Even if we assume that the time skip over to Illium was only a few weeks and not longer, the war was still officially over by then.  Someone can't "die in a war" when the war is already over.

[FlyinElk212]

"No, Shepard.......you ARE the Illusive Man!"

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 22 février 2011 - 12:22 .

[Zulu_DFA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Making things up.

It's obvious TIM's trip to Illium takes place within weeks after the armistice.

Since Desolas had involved in the fighting on Shanxi, and would die in a incident directly related to the war, there is nothing prohibiting that in a few years Desolas would be reported as "died in the war".

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Even if we assume that the time skip over to Illium was only a few weeks and not longer,

Actually, thanks to the comic-book format, it looks like it's taking place within hours of the armistice.

RiouHotaru wrote...

the war was still officially over by then.  Someone can't "die in a war" when the war is already over.

And since you want to be all "official", allow me to remind you, that "armistice" is not an official end to a war. "Peace treaty" is. But I bet after the FCW there was no treaty whatsoever, since, "officially", on the Turian side, there was no war at all, but an "incident". So yeah...

[JKoopman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

...I'm still reeling from the fact Revelation had a huge steaming pile dumped on it due to Evolution #2. I realize I'm a bit late to the party, but come ON. Did he even read the novel, or did they decide to just say "Whatever, this is how it really happened."

I mean, the whole thing behind Saren was his brother's death and his brother is CLEARLY alive. So what, his motivation is that he and his brother are blatant racists who apparently despise humanity so much they're single-handedly pushing forward a conspiracy? I mean...what?!

Goddamnit, 2157 is like 8 years ahead of 2165!!!

And it's clear as day TIM's gonna smoke Saren's brother by #4!

Except Revelation clearly states Saren's brother died in the First Contact War.  Except now the FCW is already over.  So how do we explain this then?

Except this happens to be the exact quote from Revelation:

“Personal information on Spectres is sealed,” she [Ambassdor Anita Goyle] told him [Lt. Commander David Anderson], “but our intel dug up something interesting. Seems he lost his brother during the First Contact War.”

Really? So we're going to argue semantics now?

I'd think most people would read that as "Even though personal records of Sepctres are sealed, our intel have managed to uncover some interesting information. Saren had a brother who was killed during the First Contact War." Most people would not read that as "Well, we don't really know for sure, but our intel uncovered that it's possible that Saren had a brother who potentially was killed during the First Contact War, but we could be wrong."

If the intel was just supposition, then it's not really intel, is it? And what good would it then have done Anderson?

Modifié par JKoopman, 22 février 2011 - 12:37 .

[didymos1120]

JKoopman wrote...
If the intel was just supposition, then it's not really intel, is it? And what good would it then have done Anderson?

It didn't do him any good, actually.  It had absolutely no impact on the plot at all.  It was only there for the purpose of saying "Saren hates humans."

[Zulu_DFA]

JKoopman wrote...

our intel have managed to uncover some interesting information.

"Our intel" most probably being Jack Harper's report.

[tonnactus]

JKoopman wrote...

Then there's the whole "humans are more genetically diverse than all other races in the galaxy because we have a wide range of appearances and intelligence levels...even though every other race in the galaxy has idiots and geniuses and a range of different appearances as well...including the asari who can randomize their genetic code with that of other species and should then clearly be the most diverse by far...but we're different/better because...actually, just don't think about it too much and nod your head in understanding" angle that the game tries to push on us no less than three times.

That the reapers are not completely mechanic was actually hinted by Saren...
"The strenght of both,the weaknesses of nether".The essence thing by sovereign that each reaper is a nation by themselves.

Modifié par tonnactus, 22 février 2011 - 01:10 .