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[habitat 67]

Briallen wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Whether or not we agree that the trilogy was planned from the start, one thing is clear: BioWare has simply not released enough information on the creation of the Mass Effect series' plot for any of us to pretend to speak with authority on it.

I so wish people would stop making up horror scenarios, scaring themselves, and then then treating those horror scenarios as fact on the forums in order to justify public pant-pooping.

This.

Haha yes, this. Enough pants-pooping.

[JKoopman]

tonnactus wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Then there's the whole "humans are more genetically diverse than all other races in the galaxy because we have a wide range of appearances and intelligence levels...even though every other race in the galaxy has idiots and geniuses and a range of different appearances as well...including the asari who can randomize their genetic code with that of other species and should then clearly be the most diverse by far...but we're different/better because...actually, just don't think about it too much and nod your head in understanding" angle that the game tries to push on us no less than three times.

That the reapers are not completely mechanic was actually hinted by Saren...
"The strenght of both,the weaknesses of nether".The essence thing by sovereign that each reaper is a nation by themselves.

Saren was referring to himself and his Reaper implants, not the Reapers themselves; as in, implanting himself with Reaper technology gave him the strengths of both (organic and Reaper) and the weaknesses of neither. In point of fact, that statement implies the exact opposite. If fusing organic and machine gives Saren the strengths of both organics and Reapers without their weaknesses, then it suggests that Reapers are not part organic or they would be "a fusion of organic and machine" themselves.

And Legion also is "a nation unto himself". Does that make him partially organic as well? That Reapers have thousands(millions/billions?) of programs operating inside them in tandem does not necessitate that they be the distilled essense of an entire species.

There was NOTHING in ME1 that so much as hinted at the Reapers being partially organic; and in fact it was explicitly stated on more than one occassion that they were purely mechanical.

Modifié par JKoopman, 22 février 2011 - 02:37 .

[Whatever42]

JKoopman wrote...
There was NOTHING in ME1 that so much as hinted at the Reapers being partially organic; and in fact is was explicitly states on more than one occassion that they were purely mechanical.

Willing to buy everything before the semi-colon. I can recall nothing. They did turn organics into husks, which is blending the organic and machine. They did turn Saren into a cyborg. They did generate a field which altered the brainwaves of organic beings, where people lost the ability to think independently. Lots there to suggest that there is something afoot but no, Sovereign did not explain what it was. Not exactly surprising but true.

But I'm going to suggest you source your second assertion above. Saren certainly said they were machines. Shepard certainly said they were machine. Neither would know differently, of course, and proves nothing. Is there some source that would know the engineering/biology of a Reaper that said the Reapers are mechanical?

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 22 février 2011 - 01:52 .

[tonnactus]

JKoopman wrote...



Saren't was referring to himself and his Reaper implants,

Saren said,that the reapers need organics and that he now,with the implants,is an example for the future of all organic life,the evolution of it.

Sure,someone may have thought at this time that this was a trick from sovereign for buying time and/or confuse/convince shepardt.
And the essence of the races: The thorian himself was an example for that.It "eats" prothean corpses and get the essence of the protheans this way.The reapers transform organics into a paste and a new reaper becomes a nation(having the knowledge/culture of the race it was based of)

[Kusy]

tonnactus wrote...

JKoopman wrote...



Saren't was referring to himself and his Reaper implants,

Saren said,that the reapers need organics and that he now,with the implants,is an example for the future of all organic life,the evolution of it.

Sure,someone may have thought at this time that this was a trick from sovereign for buying time and/or confuse/convince shepardt.
And the essence of the races: The thorian himself was an example for that.It "eats" prothean corpses and get the essence of the protheans this way.The reapers transform organics into a paste and a new reaper becomes a nation(having the knowledge/culture of the race it was based of)

No, it was a trick to convince Saren. It's how Sovereigh manipulated Saren into doing whatever he did, indoctrinating him so he belives he was saving organic life.

[didymos1120]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Willing to buy everything before the semi-colon. I can recall nothing. They did turn organics into husks, which is blending the organic and machine. They did turn Saren into a cyborg. They did generate a field which altered the brainwaves of organic beings, where people lost the ability to think independently.

Then of course, there's the fact that they go to all that trouble to harvest organic civilizations in the first place, and the game heavily implied that it wasn't simply a "kill 'em all for teh lulz" thing.  They actually needed us for something.

[Whatever42]

didymos1120 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Willing to buy everything before the semi-colon. I can recall nothing. They did turn organics into husks, which is blending the organic and machine. They did turn Saren into a cyborg. They did generate a field which altered the brainwaves of organic beings, where people lost the ability to think independently.

Then of course, there's the fact that they go to all that trouble to harvest organic civilizations in the first place, and the game heavily implied that it wasn't simply a "kill 'em all for teh lulz" thing.  They actually needed us for something.

I thought they just wanted our MP3 collections?

[PrinceOfFallout13]

david gaider should have wrote the comics

[Zulu_DFA]

JKoopman wrote...

There was NOTHING in ME1 that so much as hinted at the Reapers being partially organic; and in fact it was explicitly stated on more than one occassion that they were purely mechanical.

Except the Leviathan of Dis. At the time the idea was dismissed, because there was nothing else in the game to support the notion that the Reapers were made of somebody's DNA. But as of ME2 we have this Baby-Mega-T-800, so now nothing prohibits the Leviathan from being confirmed as Sovereign, so the chances are the Reapers have always been "made of organics". It is, of course, lame, but this doesn't make it a retcon.

[JKoopman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...
There was NOTHING in ME1 that so much as hinted at the Reapers being partially organic; and in fact is was explicitly states on more than one occassion that they were purely mechanical.

Willing to buy everything before the semi-colon. I can recall nothing. They did turn organics into husks, which is blending the organic and machine. They did turn Saren into a cyborg. They did generate a field which altered the brainwaves of organic beings, where people lost the ability to think independently. Lots there to suggest that there is something afoot but no, Sovereign did explain what it was. Not exactly surprising but true.

But I'm going to suggest you source your second assertion above. Saren certainly said they were machines. Shepard certainly said they were machine. Neither would know differently, of course, and proves nothing. Is there some source that would know the engineering/biology of a Reaper that said the Reapers are mechanical?

Is there "proof"? No. But it's reinforced multiple times throughout the story: "The Reapers are machines", "You're just a machine", "The Reapers are a long-dead race of machines", etc. As a rule of writing, you don't tell the reader something that's completely untrue unless you plan to make the revelation of that truth a major plot point. Why go to the trouble of making the "reader" believe the Reapers are purely mechanical if you're just going to shrug it off in the second game with "Incorrect. The Reapers are actually biomechanical in nature" with zero lead-up or fanfare, as if EDI just told you something that everyone already knows?

If the intension from the start was to make the Reapers a bio-mechanical race, why not referrence them as such from the start (ie: "The Reapers are a long-dead race of living machines" or "The Reapers are a long-dead race of cybernetic life-forms") instead of saying they're just machines and then "retconing" it in the second chapter with no exposition whatsoever?

So either it's a retcon or it's just really bad writing. Take your pic.

Modifié par JKoopman, 22 février 2011 - 02:00 .

[JKoopman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

There was NOTHING in ME1 that so much as hinted at the Reapers being partially organic; and in fact it was explicitly stated on more than one occassion that they were purely mechanical.

Except the Leviathan of Dis. At the time the idea was dismissed, because there was nothing else in the game to support the notion that the Reapers were made of somebody's DNA. But as of ME2 we have this Baby-Mega-T-800, so now nothing prohibits the Leviathan from being confirmed as Sovereign, so the chances are the Reapers have always been "made of organics". It is, of course, lame, but this doesn't make it a retcon.

The Leviathan of Dis couldn't have been Sovereign. The timelines/locations don't match, and there's also the fact that the Leviathan was, ya know, a corpse ("the remains of a genetically-engineered starship" doesn't really sound like Sovereign to me).

The Leviathan of Dis was just an easter-egg referrence to the living starships from Farscape which, coincidentally, were also called 'Leviathans'.

Modifié par JKoopman, 22 février 2011 - 02:10 .

[Whatever42]

Well, from our perception, which is where those quotes are from, the Reapers were just machines. We were wrong. That was the "twist". We already complain that ME2 doesn't have the big reveals of ME1 (who cares about the Collectors?). Are you suggesting that everything has to be revealed up front and all information from all characters has to be trusted?

Its not a retcon or bad writing. Ben told Luke that Darth Vader killed his father. Turns out he lied. We all saw a giant robot and assumed it was just a machine. We were wrong. Writers do this all the time.

Now, there are times where it could be a retcon. For example, if the protheans had destroyed and dissected a Reaper and then told us they were only machies and we found out differently, then Bioware would have to provide a very good reason for the misinformation or it would be a retcon or a plothole. However, in this case, no one had any reason to know differently. They certainly *look* like giant machines.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 22 février 2011 - 02:07 .

[Whatever42]

One more note: again, the hints that they were organic were there. The fact that they turned everything into cyborgs, that living beings near it began to fall into a group think with it, that they harvested us for some purpose. This really isn't out of the blue.

[JKoopman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Well, from our perception, which is where those quotes are from, the Reapers were just machines. We were wrong. That was the "twist". We already complain that ME2 doesn't have the big reveals of ME1 (who cares about the Collectors?). Are you suggesting that everything has to be revealed up front and all information from all characters has to be trusted?

Its not a retcon or bad writing. Ben told Luke that Darth Vader killed his father. Turns out he lied. We all saw a giant robot and assumed it was just a machine. We were wrong. Writers do this all the time.

Now, there are times where it could be a retcon. For example, if the protheans had destroyed and dissected a Reaper and then told us they were only machies and we found out differently, then Bioware would have to provide a very good reason for the misinformation or it would be a retcon or a plothole. However, in this case, no one had any reason to know differently. They certainly *look* like giant machines.

So you're going with "bad writing" then.

Yes, Obi-Wan lied to Luke and told him that Darth Vader killed his father. The reveal that Darth Vader was in fact actually Luke's father was both cleverly-worded (as in, when Darth Vader was "born", what remained of Anakin Skywalker "died") but was also central to the entire plot of the 5th and 6th films.

The "big reveal" that the Reapers are bio-mechanical is mentioned out of the blue by EDI ("Incorrect. The Reapers are actually bio-mechanical.") at the end of the second game with no lead-up and no fanfare as if EDI was simply amending an incorrect statement by Shepard, and delivered as if she just told you the ship's laundry was done;  and it's then immediately glossed over as if it's completely unimportant and doesn't matter at all (which it really doesn't, ergo why not reveal it from the start?).

Modifié par JKoopman, 22 février 2011 - 02:27 .

[AdmiralCheez]

In its defense, JKoopman, it's kind of hard for EDI to sound excited about anything. Also, "I AM YOUR FATHER" has to be one of the cheesiest moments in film history. We just think it's cool because we grew up with it.



Totes not hatin' on Star Wards or anything. Nor do I think ME2's "dramatic reveals" were handled particularly well.

[JKoopman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

One more note: again, the hints that they were organic were there. The fact that they turned everything into cyborgs, that living beings near it began to fall into a group think with it, that they harvested us for some purpose. This really isn't out of the blue.

That Reapers like to implant their servants with cybernetics to enhance them and keep them under control is not indicative of anything more than their desire to enhance their servants and keep them under control. It doesn't hint at the Reapers themselves being bio-mechanical.

[Whatever42]

So your complaint is that for a big reveal, there was too little fanfare and reaction? That it was handled too matter-of-factly?

hrm... that could be a viable point. I remember going 'WTF' when looking at the people slurpees and the giant terminator Reaper but I'll pay more attention to the reactions of Shepard and others. EDI is an AI and not a person, so I wouldn't expect an overly emotional outburst from it but I'll try to judge the writing there. It certainly is a very important reveal. Its not quite as personal as young luke and his daddy, I can't imagine Shepard going "noooooo!" but it is important.

Now, even if that is the case, I think its a pretty common complaint about a lot of the writing. It's not "Holy sh!t, Shepard, you're alive! How can this be?? What happened?!?!", it's "oh, hey, Shep, you're not dead. How are things?"

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 22 février 2011 - 02:29 .

[Whatever42]

JKoopman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

One more note: again, the hints that they were organic were there. The fact that they turned everything into cyborgs, that living beings near it began to fall into a group think with it, that they harvested us for some purpose. This really isn't out of the blue.

That Reapers like to implant their servants with cybernetics to enhance them and keep them under control is not indicative of anything more than their desire to enhance their servants and keep them under control. It doesn't hint at the Reapers themselves being bio-mechanical.

I'm not claiming its evidence. In the 6th sense, Bruce's wife never acknowledging him isn't evidence that he's dead. But after you find out he's a ghost, its 'oooooh, that makes sense." Same thing here.

[JKoopman]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

One more note: again, the hints that they were organic were there. The fact that they turned everything into cyborgs, that living beings near it began to fall into a group think with it, that they harvested us for some purpose. This really isn't out of the blue.

That Reapers like to implant their servants with cybernetics to enhance them and keep them under control is not indicative of anything more than their desire to enhance their servants and keep them under control. It doesn't hint at the Reapers themselves being bio-mechanical.

I'm not claiming its evidence. In the 6th sense, Bruce's wife never acknowledging him isn't evidence that he's dead. But after you find out he's a ghost, its 'oooooh, that makes sense." Same thing here.

Fair enough. Point taken.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

Nekemekem wrote...

AllenShepard wrote...

Nekemekem wrote...

AllenShepard wrote...

   I would argue that the General Williams thing isn't completely inaccurate. When TIM asked General Williams if they could take the troop transport he said "we're leaving it anyway". It was clear that they were getting the hell of Shanxi and that's why TIM only had 20 hours to find the artifact.

   I don't see how Desolas being a general changes anything.

   It isn't stated that they know it's a "reaper" artifact. Who knows their depth of knowledge on the subject. Saren doesn't seem well informed about it at all. The most likely outcome here is that TIM will stop Desolas (thereby making #2 accurate) and Saren will pick up where his brother left off. After all, we don't know how long Saren was preparing before Eden Prime.

Revelation clearly states that Saren was preparing to utilize the "alien" ship at that time, when he became aware of how advanced its technology was. This is I believe 10 years prior to Eden Prime.

But does Desolas know that the artifact is of the "Reapers"?

It's entirely possible that they're trying to create an army of husks or some other motivation and they don't know yet.

No, that is of course a good point that is entirely possible. The confusion I personally have is that Saren comes across Sovereign in Revelations and is intrigued by the effects the ship has on the people that have been researching it - as in he'd never seen anything like it before. It seems to me that the husks in the comic by all means are under the same sort of effect, therefore making Saren's Sovereign descovery kinda inconsistent.

But yeah, again, that is a very good point you bring up! 

Remember Garrus's mentioning of "machine cultists" in that one mission whyere the researchers became husks.

[didymos1120]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I'm not claiming its evidence.

No, it's still evidence. It's just not evidence that necessarily leads to the hybrid idea and only the hybrid idea, in the same way that the mere existence of fossils doesn't necessarily lead to evolution.  We get there when we take other observations into account.  What matters is whether the hybrid notion can explain the evidence. And it can.

[JKoopman]

didymos1120 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I'm not claiming its evidence.

No, it's still evidence. It's just not evidence that necessarily leads to the hybrid idea and only the hybrid idea, in the same way that the mere existence of fossils doesn't necessarily lead to evolution.  We get there when we take other observations into account.  What matters is whether the hybrid notion can explain the evidence. And it can.

The thing is, the husks and Reaper implants don't necessitate that the Reapers be bio-mechanical for them to make sense. It's inaccurate to say "Looking back, the Reapers being bio-mechanical explains the husks." because the husks were entirely plausible whether the Reapers were bio-mechanical or not, so it's more apt to say that the "evidence" explains the hybrid notion and not the other way around. Does the Reapers being bio-mechanical "explain" the husks? Yes. Do the husks suggest bio-mechanical Reapers? No.

To use your analogy, that's like saying the existence of fossils leads to the notion of a meteor impact wiping out the dinosaurs. The dinosaurs may very well have been wiped out by a meteor impact, but a fossil is not evidence one way or the other. Would a meteor impact kill the dinosaurs and, by extension, create fossils? Yes. Does the existence of a fossil suggest a meteor impact? No.

In other words, it's a little like saying "All prisoners are criminals, but not all criminals are prisoners."

Hopefully that makes sense.

Modifié par JKoopman, 22 février 2011 - 03:07 .

[Zulu_DFA]

JKoopman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

There was NOTHING in ME1 that so much as hinted at the Reapers being partially organic; and in fact it was explicitly stated on more than one occassion that they were purely mechanical.

Except the Leviathan of Dis. At the time the idea was dismissed, because there was nothing else in the game to support the notion that the Reapers were made of somebody's DNA. But as of ME2 we have this Baby-Mega-T-800, so now nothing prohibits the Leviathan from being confirmed as Sovereign, so the chances are the Reapers have always been "made of organics". It is, of course, lame, but this doesn't make it a retcon.

The Leviathan of Dis couldn't have been Sovereign. The timelines/locations don't match, and there's also the fact that the Leviathan was, ya know, a corpse ("the remains of a genetically-engineered starship" doesn't really sound like Sovereign to me).

The Leviathan of Dis was just an easter-egg referrence to the living starships from Farscape which, coincidentally, were also called 'Leviathans'.

Pay attantion:

Leviathan. 2160. Batarians. Took. It.

Sovereign. 2165. Batarians. Study. It.

[JKoopman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

There was NOTHING in ME1 that so much as hinted at the Reapers being partially organic; and in fact it was explicitly stated on more than one occassion that they were purely mechanical.

Except the Leviathan of Dis. At the time the idea was dismissed, because there was nothing else in the game to support the notion that the Reapers were made of somebody's DNA. But as of ME2 we have this Baby-Mega-T-800, so now nothing prohibits the Leviathan from being confirmed as Sovereign, so the chances are the Reapers have always been "made of organics". It is, of course, lame, but this doesn't make it a retcon.

The Leviathan of Dis couldn't have been Sovereign. The timelines/locations don't match, and there's also the fact that the Leviathan was, ya know, a corpse ("the remains of a genetically-engineered starship" doesn't really sound like Sovereign to me).

The Leviathan of Dis was just an easter-egg referrence to the living starships from Farscape which, coincidentally, were also called 'Leviathans'.

Pay attantion:

Leviathan. 2160. Batarians. Took. It.

Sovereign. 2165. Batarians. Study. It.

...And, moving on to part two, does "the remains of a genetically-engineered starship" sound anything at all like an intact and fully-functional Reaper?

Never mind that Reapers aren't "genetically-engineered". Genetic engineering implies a living organic creature. Miranda is genetically-engineered. Sovereign is built, albeit out of an organic-composit material.

Modifié par JKoopman, 22 février 2011 - 03:40 .

[TuringPoint]

I have a suspicion now. That suspicion is that the Council, or some faction involved with the Council, is connected to the Reapers. Hence the Turian interest in the humans settling the particular world that they did.



Of course this theory has come up before, but just to suggest it in a different light...