56 ответов в этой теме

[M-Taylor]

LobselVith8 wrote...

M-Taylor wrote...

Depends entirely on your character. He's obviously not talking about every Warden killing Nathaniel, he's talking about a Cousland one. Tell me you haven't made a very bitter Cousland Warden? I know I have, and it was totally in-character for her to kill Nathaniel without a split second thinking. He had the name Howe, the Howes', to her, were as bad as the next one.. a la, a good reason to kill him.

I'm well aware he's talking about a Cousland Warden, but it doesn't mean Nathaniel is responsible for his father's actions.

M-Taylor wrote...

Although I've gotta be honest and say, it's quite amusing to read the replies in this thread. How can people get so agitated over someone saying it could be seen as good to kill a pixel character? :/

You find it amusing because people disagree with you?

I didn't say it did. Of course it doesn't. But at the same time, you can picture how a Cousland Warden might be just a tiny bit resentful about working with a guy who was related to the man responsible for the massacre of your family. I've had Cousland Wardens who would happily slaughter every person with the name Howe. Would I do that in real life? Of course not! But that's part of playing a game like this. It isn't black and white, and some things that are deemed (rightfully so) 'wrong' in real society could be classed as 'understandable' in a society like this.

And no, I suggest you read it again. I didn't say I found it amusing that people were disagreeing with each other (should point out that I very rarely post.. so), I found it amusing that people were getting so agitated over people trying to argue how Nathianels execution could be seen as the right descsion depending on the type of Warden you play. I think people need to accept and learn that this is a game at the centre and not so woefully engage themselves to the point where they begin to look a tiny bit foolish as they zealously defend a fictional character.

[Thor Rand Al]

It also depends on how you play the game. There are some who literally immerse themselves into the game world, just like reading an excellent book series. You get into it n considering I've been playing DA for over a yr now off n on, ya I've learned to really get into the game. You can't experience the total thrill of the game unless you do. There's more than just hack n slash involved in DA n thats what makes it an exceptional game.

So if someone gets a lil bent out of shape (so to speak) about a certain character it's because they've gotten to know the character/(pixel as you would say). Nothing wrong with that, that's why Bioware makes these characters so intense. As far as Nathaniel, you can't judge him by what his dad did. Do you really think daddy Cousland would want his child to go off n slaughter everyone in the Howe family just because Arl Howe was a decietful sob? I don't think so. I got my satisfaction out of killing Arl Howe. That was justice n that's all the justice my Cousland's have ever needed.

Сообщение изменено: Thor Rand Al, 19 Февраль 2011 - 10:14 .

[Zjarcal]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

He's not a bad guy.

He is the son of a bad guy, that is close enough for me.

So if your parents had been criminals we should condemn you?

[USArmyParatrooper]

Triggerhappy2010 wrote...

I've never beat the game, or gotten very far.  So without giving any spoilers, could you let me know if I should recruit him or hang him?  He does come in handy because he can pick locks and open doors, but I'm not sure if recruiting him has any consequences. 

Really it's a personal choice. He's a rogue (and you can respec), so if your PC isn't one I would certainly use him. For RPG purposes if you're playing a "good" guy I would either conscript him or let him go. He didn't do anything worthy of hanging.

Сообщение изменено: USArmyParatrooper, 19 Февраль 2011 - 11:38 .

[Persephone]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

He's not a bad guy.

He is the son of a bad guy, that is close enough for me.

This kind of warped justice condemns you more than him.

[Persephone]

caradoc2000 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, Nathaniel isn't responsible for his father's actions, and you have nothing to provide that says otherwise.

Didn't I just provide evidence? Besides, it is poetic justice. Howe killed the Warden's family, it is only fair that the Warden returns the favor.

Evidence? No, you haven't provided evidence. Justice? Committing the same crime, lowering yourself to the same level is JUSTICE? 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Triggerhappy2010 wrote...

I've never beat the game, or gotten very far.  So without giving any spoilers, could you let me know if I should recruit him or hang him?  He does come in handy because he can pick locks and open doors, but I'm not sure if recruiting him has any consequences. 

Recruiting him doesn't come with any consequences. You *can* tell him to go away rather than recruiting or hanging him, and he'll chase you down and request you make him a Grey Warden. Oghren will warn you Nate might go 'All Zevran on you', which either means he believes the guy will try to stab you in the back or offer you an erotic massage, I'm not entirely sure which...though he *does* have that dark brooding look, a similar hairstyle to our Antivan assassin...firm muscular chest...all that leather...

...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I never hang him but I definitely did want him gone on my Cousland Warden. I gave him his stuff so he would leave and never come back. Although that turned out to be wrong, eventually I gave in and recruited him. He worked out pretty well, the way I played him he didn't turn out to be very good in hand to hand combat but he was the best archer/lockpicker  in my party.

Сообщение изменено: Jedi Master of Orion, 20 Февраль 2011 - 01:04 .

[Shinobu]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Recruiting him doesn't come with any consequences. You *can* tell him to go away rather than recruiting or hanging him, and he'll chase you down and request you make him a Grey Warden. Oghren will warn you Nate might go 'All Zevran on you', which either means he believes the guy will try to stab you in the back or offer you an erotic massage, I'm not entirely sure which...though he *does* have that dark brooding look, a similar hairstyle to our Antivan assassin...firm muscular chest...all that leather...

...

Oh, that's priceless! I wish he'd offer the massage!

@caradoc2000, not to malign your faith or anything, but some people may not think the Old Testament God is the greatest role model, and so not feel that your quote is adequate justification. The New Testament introduces "turn the other cheek" after all.

Сообщение изменено: Shinobu, 20 Февраль 2011 - 05:31 .

[caradoc2000]

Shinobu wrote...

...some people may not think the Old Testament God is the greatest role model, and so not feel that your quote is adequate justification.

Still, it might not be that far away from the Thedan gods.

[Shinobu]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

...some people may not think the Old Testament God is the greatest role model, and so not feel that your quote is adequate justification.

Still, it might not be that far away from the Thedan gods.

True. And "an eye for an eye" is a pretty common stance in medieval setings, so I can see a Cousie (or other Warden) who ascribes to it. I'm just trying to explain why your post caused such a backlash.

[Grace1957]

I keep all companions even if I never use them.You never know.

[Aluvious]

M-Taylor wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

M-Taylor wrote...

Depends entirely on your character. He's obviously not talking about every Warden killing Nathaniel, he's talking about a Cousland one. Tell me you haven't made a very bitter Cousland Warden? I know I have, and it was totally in-character for her to kill Nathaniel without a split second thinking. He had the name Howe, the Howes', to her, were as bad as the next one.. a la, a good reason to kill him.

I'm well aware he's talking about a Cousland Warden, but it doesn't mean Nathaniel is responsible for his father's actions.

M-Taylor wrote...

Although I've gotta be honest and say, it's quite amusing to read the replies in this thread. How can people get so agitated over someone saying it could be seen as good to kill a pixel character? :/

You find it amusing because people disagree with you?

I didn't say it did. Of course it doesn't. But at the same time, you can picture how a Cousland Warden might be just a tiny bit resentful about working with a guy who was related to the man responsible for the massacre of your family. I've had Cousland Wardens who would happily slaughter every person with the name Howe. Would I do that in real life? Of course not! But that's part of playing a game like this. It isn't black and white, and some things that are deemed (rightfully so) 'wrong' in real society could be classed as 'understandable' in a society like this.

And no, I suggest you read it again. I didn't say I found it amusing that people were disagreeing with each other (should point out that I very rarely post.. so), I found it amusing that people were getting so agitated over people trying to argue how Nathianels execution could be seen as the right descsion depending on the type of Warden you play. I think people need to accept and learn that this is a game at the centre and not so woefully engage themselves to the point where they begin to look a tiny bit foolish as they zealously defend a fictional character.

People debate silly things like this all the time. In films, literature, art, arguing over what has meaning and what doesnt and how different things can be interpreted as something else. But you make it out as if video games are a stupid thing to debate about. What makes video games any different? Shouldn't a good game with a good story and a fleshed out world be emotionally involving and connect to the players?

[M-Taylor]

Aluvious wrote...

M-Taylor wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

M-Taylor wrote...

Depends entirely on your character. He's obviously not talking about every Warden killing Nathaniel, he's talking about a Cousland one. Tell me you haven't made a very bitter Cousland Warden? I know I have, and it was totally in-character for her to kill Nathaniel without a split second thinking. He had the name Howe, the Howes', to her, were as bad as the next one.. a la, a good reason to kill him.

I'm well aware he's talking about a Cousland Warden, but it doesn't mean Nathaniel is responsible for his father's actions.

M-Taylor wrote...

Although I've gotta be honest and say, it's quite amusing to read the replies in this thread. How can people get so agitated over someone saying it could be seen as good to kill a pixel character? :/

You find it amusing because people disagree with you?

I didn't say it did. Of course it doesn't. But at the same time, you can picture how a Cousland Warden might be just a tiny bit resentful about working with a guy who was related to the man responsible for the massacre of your family. I've had Cousland Wardens who would happily slaughter every person with the name Howe. Would I do that in real life? Of course not! But that's part of playing a game like this. It isn't black and white, and some things that are deemed (rightfully so) 'wrong' in real society could be classed as 'understandable' in a society like this.

And no, I suggest you read it again. I didn't say I found it amusing that people were disagreeing with each other (should point out that I very rarely post.. so), I found it amusing that people were getting so agitated over people trying to argue how Nathianels execution could be seen as the right descsion depending on the type of Warden you play. I think people need to accept and learn that this is a game at the centre and not so woefully engage themselves to the point where they begin to look a tiny bit foolish as they zealously defend a fictional character.

People debate silly things like this all the time. In films, literature, art, arguing over what has meaning and what doesnt and how different things can be interpreted as something else. But you make it out as if video games are a stupid thing to debate about. What makes video games any different? Shouldn't a good game with a good story and a fleshed out world be emotionally involving and connect to the players?

Again.. I did not say that. Point me to where I said don't debate because it's a video game? My point, which I stand by, is people should acknowledge that this is a game and not be governed by their emotions in such a debate. It makes them look foolish, and I stand by that point.

By all means, debate away. But resorting to sentences such as 'DON'T KILL HIM! HES NOT HOWE FFS ONLY HIS SON!' isn't exactly a debate. It's a very bias and very zealous point of view from someone, and that's the type of post I was directing my statement too.

TL:DR, to make it clear for you. Emotions should not be a key ground for debating. Rational argument should. The understanding that people may hold different points of view to you. Degrading into a fanboy is not constructive, it isn't fun to read and makes you look like a tiny bit of a twit.

[Dunizel]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Recruiting him doesn't come with any consequences. You *can* tell him to go away rather than recruiting or hanging him, and he'll chase you down and request you make him a Grey Warden. Oghren will warn you Nate might go 'All Zevran on you', which either means he believes the guy will try to stab you in the back or offer you an erotic massage, I'm not entirely sure which...though he *does* have that dark brooding look, a similar hairstyle to our Antivan assassin...firm muscular chest...all that leather...

...

Thanks for sharing this, I never tried this option, I regret I've missed such a nice conversation  And now that reminds me of that party banter between Nate and Oghren, when Nate is a bit worried Oghren might like him in *that* sense...ah, too bad we did not have LI in Awakenings, we would have discovered more!. Or maybe, the other companions actually knew more...remember the voice of Anders when he said "Not when I'm naked, I don't"? xD

To the OP, even when I played a Cousland, I always recruited Nate. I simply could not even think to kill someone who actually knew nothing of what happened. He was so naive and a bit childish defending his family pride that honestly you cannot believe he is a bad guy, from the start. Even as a Cousland, you can totally understand his desire to protect his family. And he listens to reason, later on. He is somewhat cute, even with all his cool attitude.

Moreover, he is a really good companion and a great archer. 

So really, I see no reason for killing him or not recruiting him 

[Thor Rand Al]

M-Taylor wrote...

Again.. I did not say that. Point me to where I said don't debate because it's a video game? My point, which I stand by, is people should acknowledge that this is a game and not be governed by their emotions in such a debate. It makes them look foolish, and I stand by that point.

By all means, debate away. But resorting to sentences such as 'DON'T KILL HIM! HES NOT HOWE FFS ONLY HIS SON!' isn't exactly a debate. It's a very bias and very zealous point of view from someone, and that's the type of post I was directing my statement too.

TL:DR, to make it clear for you. Emotions should not be a key ground for debating. Rational argument should. The understanding that people may hold different points of view to you. Degrading into a fanboy is not constructive, it isn't fun to read and makes you look like a tiny bit of a twit.

Wait not killing Nathaniel because he's not Arl Howe isn't debateable n it's bias?  Seems to me thats perfectly DEBATEABLE.  Actually it's not debateable, there's nothing to debate on it, it's more like common sense actually.  Do you kill a child because their parent is a sadistic killer, do you condem that child for the rest of his life because of who that child's parent was? 

Rational argument, hmm I thought the rational arguement was whether to let Nathaniel live or not.  And a lot of people base that decision on who his father is n what Arl Howe did. Killing Nathaniel because of Arl Howe is NOT rational, it's pure irrational.  It's just plain wrong n pure evil.  

So what if this is a game, it's a game with emotion, with feeling, it's not a hack n slash, bang bang your dead kind of game.  This game was meant to have debates like this or the devs wouldn't have made the characters so deep. 

Сообщение изменено: Thor Rand Al, 20 Февраль 2011 - 11:01 .

[M-Taylor]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

M-Taylor wrote...

Again.. I did not say that. Point me to where I said don't debate because it's a video game? My point, which I stand by, is people should acknowledge that this is a game and not be governed by their emotions in such a debate. It makes them look foolish, and I stand by that point.

By all means, debate away. But resorting to sentences such as 'DON'T KILL HIM! HES NOT HOWE FFS ONLY HIS SON!' isn't exactly a debate. It's a very bias and very zealous point of view from someone, and that's the type of post I was directing my statement too.

TL:DR, to make it clear for you. Emotions should not be a key ground for debating. Rational argument should. The understanding that people may hold different points of view to you. Degrading into a fanboy is not constructive, it isn't fun to read and makes you look like a tiny bit of a twit.

Wait not killing Nathaniel because he's not Arl Howe isn't debateable n it's bias?  Seems to me thats perfectly DEBATEABLE.  Actually it's not debateable, there's nothing to debate on it, it's more like common sense actually.  Do you kill a child because their parent is a sadistic killer, do you condem that child for the rest of his life because of who that child's parent was? 

Rational argument, hmm I thought the rational arguement was whether to let Nathaniel live or not.  And a lot of people base that decision on who his father is n what Arl Howe did. Killing Nathaniel because of Arl Howe is NOT rational, it's pure irrational.  It's just plain wrong n pure evil.  

So what if this is a game, it's a game with emotion, with feeling, it's not a hack n slash, bang bang your dead kind of game.  This game was meant to have debates like this or the devs wouldn't have made the characters so deep. 

Wait, what? Where did I say that?

Most my Wardens have spared him. The minority of my Wardens have killed him.

I'm arguing because people can't seem to grasp that this desicion depends entirely on what type of Warden you're playing. Saying 'he can't be condemed for the sins of his father' over and over again does not change that. While it certainly does hold true in real life and the society we live in, it doesn't hold true in this setting. As someone so aptly phrased earlier, an eye for an eye is common place in this sort of scenario.

And... again, for what, the 4th time? I'm not saying debates like this are pointless and shouldn't exist. I can't understand how you people keep pulling that out of thin air. I've actually re-read my posts. None of them say anything along those lines.. at all.

[Eber]

Conscription is forced labour something I am generally against so I did not recruit Nathaniel with my main character (initially). I also had practical concerns. I remember how I felt about Duncan and the Wardens after being conscripted. Had I been given a chance to desert I would not have hesitated. It's preferable if your followers sign on willingly and are somewhat loyal to the organization and it's leaders. With Anders you might say that slavery and a big chance of immediate death is preferable to imprisonment. I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other. With Nathaniel there are no good excuses for depriving him of choice. You can simply give him his things (so he has even less reason to hate and want to kill you) and send him on his way.

Сообщение изменено: Eber, 20 Февраль 2011 - 11:10 .

[HolyAvenger]

Recruit him. He committed a crime, with intent to harm- his punishment is serving as a Grey Warden.



Although, I really do prefer Sigrun as the rogue in my party. I don't think I ever used Nathaniel after the Kal'Hirol quest. Sigrun is tiny awesomeness.

[Shinobu]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Recruit him. He committed a crime, with intent to harm- his punishment is serving as a Grey Warden.

Although, I really do prefer Sigrun as the rogue in my party. I don't think I ever used Nathaniel after the Kal'Hirol quest. Sigrun is tiny awesomeness.

But Nathaniel changed his mind about the harm, so then it was just theft. I conscripted the first time but "graciously allowed him to join" the second time. Agree about Sigrun, except for the tiny. My girl is solid.

I just did my 2nd runthrough with Nate, Sigrun and Anders backing up my DW rogue. It was *so* much more fun than my previous warrior/warrior/b*tchy mage/ Warden party. Anders was an AW armored spellcaster and the rest piled on to backstab the monsters that were trying to eat him. Fun times!

[Beren082]

Hell, being a Warden is essentially a death sentence, and it gets you one more blade to kill darkspawn with. If the very nature of being a warden doesn't kill him, the taint *chuckle* eventually will. all this about, "Why would you give him the honor of being a warden?" or, "any real person would be too resentful to let him live," is just silly. After killing the archdeamon, or living for so many years as a warden in Orlais (alternate origin), your character knows what it is to be a warden, and it is anything but an honor. You are guaranteed to die gruesomely, and you're not likely to receive any thanks while alive. Recruiting him is the most likely choice, even for someone who still holds a grudge against the Howes. What better revenge to take then to force Rendon's own son into this life?

[HolyAvenger]

Shinobu wrote...

But Nathaniel changed his mind about the harm, so then it was just theft. I conscripted the first time but "graciously allowed him to join" the second time. Agree about Sigrun, except for the tiny. My girl is solid.

So he claims? Why should my character believe him? Nah, he's all sorts of fishy.

I just did my 2nd runthrough with Nate, Sigrun and Anders backing up my DW rogue. It was *so* much more fun than my previous warrior/warrior/b*tchy mage/ Warden party. Anders was an AW armored spellcaster and the rest piled on to backstab the monsters that were trying to eat him. Fun times!

3 of any class + 1 parties in DAA were made of win. Watching my warden, Oghren and Justice (with Velanna purely healing) melee-b*tchslap every significant boss was brilliant.

[Eber]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Shinobu wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...
Recruit him. He committed a crime, with intent to harm- his punishment is serving as a Grey Warden.

But Nathaniel changed his mind about the harm, so then it was just theft. I conscripted the first time but "graciously allowed him to join" the second time.

So he claims? Why should my character believe him? Nah, he's all sorts of fishy.

If he is lying then letting him go is much better than recruiting him. A loner on the road out to get you is less likely to cause a problem than an enemy in-house. You already have all sorts of people out to get you so one more isn't going to be a big issue. Unless of course you allow him to get close.

Сообщение изменено: Eber, 21 Февраль 2011 - 06:54 .

[HolyAvenger]

Eber wrote...


If he is lying then letting him go is much better than recruiting him. A loner on the road out to get you is less likely to cause a problem than an enemy in-house. You already have all sorts of people out to get you so one more isn't going to be a big issue. Unless of course you allow him to get close.

Disagree. Who knows what kind of allies he could find out there? Or come back more prepared for a second shot? Whereas within reach of Starfang/Vigilance I'm gonna make sure he doesn't cause any trouble. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer and all that

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Agreed with HolyAvenger. That's actually how my canon Warden thought when recruiting Zevran.