143 réponses à ce sujet

[Stardusk78]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sorry to sound pessimistic here, but my experience with the demo is that the controls of this game favor Mage or a Tank style Warrior far above a Vanguard style Warrior, simply because everything is slow:

(1) Camera movement  is slow. The best way to move the camera is moust right-click hold + drag, as keyboard camera control is not precise enough. Mouse camera control prevents you from targeting at the same time. Mouse camerca control is also very slow. For example, if you want to rotate the camera to the right, you have to swing the mouse right, click and hold, and then swing it back left, which is a three-step process, unlike in most FPS games where you simply have to swing your mouse towards the direction you want to rotate the camera.

(2) Mobility creates further confusion. Using Scythe a lot further confunds camera movement. It's like how Charge confunds the camera in Mass Effect, but much worse because the camera adjusts much slower to the suddenly changed perspective.

(3) Abilities casting is slow because it requires multiple actions. Because of the slow camera movement, it takes some time to select your desired target for Scythe - you often have to rotate the camera first, then click on the enemy to select it, both steps requiring the right mouse button. By the time this is done (without pausing), the target may have moved to a different, less tactically desirable position. This cannot me completely overcome with fast reaction/high mouse sensitivity, since it's inherent in the gameplay control where camera rotation and targeting requires the same mouse button.

Mages don't have nearly as much problems because they don't require frequent, drastic camera movements. Neither does a Tank Styel Warrior, for the same reason. Mage casting also have the advantage that most of their abilities are AOE and requires the left mouse button to cast, creating less clash with camera movement.

In summary, it is my impression that Vanguard Warrior and DW Rogue are handicapped because the controls are not designed for them and not customizable. The game design favors a Mage/Tank Warrior/Archer Rogue because of better controls.

Please tell me where I'm wrong. I'm a newbie to this game.

Dude, as a player of both DAO and ME2 0n Nightmare and Insanity respectively I have to say I disagree, mostly because you HAVE to pause to issue tactics in Nightmare, but on Insanity in ME2 you don't...

[Stardusk78]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Stardusk78 wrote...
Dude, as a player of both DAO and ME2 0n Nightmare and Insanity respectively I have to say I disagree, mostly because you HAVE to pause to issue tactics in Nightmare, but on Insanity in ME2 you don't...

But isn't this guide about playing without pausing?!

Yeah I get what you mean. But I still want fast faced combat with little pause. So I'm exploring the DW Rogue now.

I had no idea this guide was for no-pausing; it is almost impossible for so many reasons. AOE is REALLY hard to pull off without pausing for example.

I am very impressed with Archery; they have improved it a lot.

Regarding your original assessment; in DA(2) teamwork is key; especially in DA2 as each class has its thing;

Rogues are one on one guys (mostly), mages in between warriors are for groups...cross class combos encourage it.

For me it was the opposite when I first starting playing ME2, not to pause, not you just have to get used to a different style of play; I love both series though!

[Stardusk78]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Have you looked at the DW Rogue yet?

I have something that might work:

1. Miasmic Flask
2. Backstab
3. Rush
4. Speed
5. Confusion
6. Evade
7. Murder
8. Charge
9. Fatiguing Fog
10. Perforate
11. Blitz
12. Chaos
13. Overpowering Fog

Backstabber with supreme mobility and enough crowd control.

You should wait for the specialisations to come out; Assassin might be really good for a DW rogue....

[Sabresandiego]

A good way to get a feel for the classes is to play the legendary versions repeatedly, by exiting the game at the first ogre. I've decided that warrior is clearly my favorite class now that I have mastered using the "attack closest target" key. It takes awhile to get used to melee combat and at first it seems like ranged characters are superior. I updated my guide with more info on how to use this key in the key bindings section.

[Zhel_Ryn]

Enjoying the progress and work you're putting into this guide. Definitely a game/style I will try down the road (going a more obsessive controller route for my first playthrough, as a 2 hander).



Not sure if you've looked into it, but the companion best fitting the 'control rogue' you have listed has really nice group buffs and an attack that has 800% damage vs. stagger. Can't say what the other rogue has instead, but a very nice fit for any 2 handed warrior, yes? ^.^

[HolyAvenger]

I would definitely put at least a couple of points into cun every few levels. That defense bonus is worth it.

[Gnoster]

I definately enjoyed the 2-handed warrior, and I see them being very powerfull once you learn to use their abilities to maximum effect.

[Sabresandiego]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Defensive Support Mage: Bethany 1Mag 2 Wil Defensive Support Mage 
Level 1: Fireball (Default)
Level 2: Heal
Level 3: Greater Heal
Level 4: Elemental Weapons (4)
Level 5: Dispell
Level 6: Heroic Aura
Level 7: Valiant Aura (7)
Level 8: Barrier (5)
Level 9: Arcane Fortress (9)
Level 10: Haste (7)
Level 11: Greater Haste (11)
Level 12: Crushing Prison (6)
Level 13: Paralyzing Prison (10)

Crushing Prison requires Mind Blast. I think it's better for the Party Buff Mage to get Horror (works against any boss).

I would build Bethany with Arcane Wall, Elemental Weapons, and Valient Aura. Since these spells reserve mana based on percentage, you won't need to put a single point ever into Willpower to obtain an effect just as good. And since these spells don't do damage (neither does Heal/Haste), the caster doesn't draw aggro - so no Barrier is needed.

Heal/Haste both have very long cooldowns (40 sec and 60 sec), so you could get away with a build of Arcane Wall/Elemental Weapons/Valient Aura/Greater Heal/Greater Haste build without putting too much point in Willpower.

No point in Cunning/Constitution is needed since the Party Buffer doesn't draw aggro. No point in Magic is needed since she's not a DPSer. In short, no point is needed. Bethany only needs to study, never to work out.

I played with this build in the demo on Hawke (with Mind Blast, Crushing Prison, Heroic Aura, Elemental Weapons, Arcane Shield). No one ever touched me and my party is super strong.

I suggest evolving Bethany's Fireball to full (Searing, Pyromancer) so that she'll have some place to spend that mana other than the occasional Heal/Haste, and so that her Magic points are not wasted. I understand that Fireball isn't a very useful power on Nightmare, but since Beth starts with it, you might as well use it.

All these companion builds are very rough sketches since we dont have access to specializations yet. That being said, I probably won't have bethany take the prison spells until later on. Arcane wall only gives 5% instead of 20% to your allies, so I dont think its very good unless you are a battle mage. Barrier is good to cast on anyone that has low health. Its like a 5 second immunity for someone whos about to die. Barrier is the least important of the abilities I listed and probably will be the first to be replaced by a specialization ability instead. I think 1 mag, 2 wil is a good build for bethany because she will be using the mana on heals and her specialization abilities which we dont know of yet, and casting haste and dispell. Haste, dispell, heals, barrier, and specialization abilities will need mana.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2011 - 06:20 .

[Sabresandiego]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...
All these companion builds are very rough sketches since we dont have access to specializations yet. That being said, I probably won't have bethany take the prison spells until later on. Arcane wall only gives 5% instead of 20% to your allies, so I dont think its very good unless you are a battle mage. Barrier is good to cast on anyone that has low health. Its like a 5 second immunity for someone whos about to die. Barrier is the least important of the abilities I listed and probably will be the first to be replaced by a specialization ability instead. I think 1 mag, 2 wil is a good build for bethany because she will be using the mana on heals and her specialization abilities which we dont know of yet, and casting haste and dispell. Haste, dispell, heals, barrier, and specialization abilities will need mana.

I get your point. Barrier is indeed like a second Heal here, which can offset Heal's long cooldown.

So are you going to forbid Bethany from ever using Fireball? I find her to be quite inaccurate with it unless you're controlling her; it will be the only skill that draws aggro to her without which you can disregard Cunning and Constitution entirely; it has FF which sucks on Nightmare. These are enough reasons.

On the other hand, I find companion builds to be just as valid as Hawke builds, because every party member is equal (at least in the beginning) unlike in Mass Effect. If some early build works well for Hawke, it works just as well for a party member. Just control that guy a bit.

On topic, I think I'll give the DW Rogue a go first. It has the 'real' Charge ability which looks awesome and is very useful. Combine it with Backstab and Evade and you have the Dancing Queen.

Edit: I read somewhere else that you get your first Specialization at Level 7 and second one at Level 14; also, Specialization points are different from Talent points (posted by Peter Thomas here). So you don't have to worry to much about Specializations in your guide, at least not before Level 7.

Specializations will make a big difference in how you choose abilities at level 7 and beyond. Thats why all my recommendations right now are very sketchy. As for Bethany using fireball, I think I will allow her to use it but it will be very low on the priority list on tactics. I noticed you need mind blast for barrier, so Im removing it from her build to allow her open points to put into whatever her specialization will be.

[Seblun]

I support this thread, even though it is a bit early for it.

[Sabresandiego]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

There's also another issue: How to build your support Warrior Tank (Aveline). I have a few points for discussion:

(1) Cunning Tank vs Constitution Tank. From the demo, it seems easy to push Defense past 50% if you put around 1.25 points per level into Cunning. The increase in Defense vs. Cunning investment is not linear - there seems to be an optimal amount of Cunning, around 50% to 60% Defense. I would put points into Cunning to push Defense above 50% then dump the rest into Constitution, with an occasional point here or there in Willpower/Strength.

(2) Strength/Fortituted may not be needed for Aveline because she has a unique Passive in the Guardian tree that gives her 100% immunity to knockdowns.

(3) Stonewall/Bulwark may be better for an occasional Tank instead of a constant Tank like Aveline, because its duration (6 sec) is too small for the stamina cost. I find Aveline to be better with Tremor, which AOE stuns the large amounts of mooks that usually surrounds her. Stonewall drains her stamina too quickly without making her that much more survivable in the long run.

Just my two cents. I think the Support Warrior Tank and the Support Healer Mage are essential to your build, or any DPS build for that matter. Hope I helped.

Edit: How long is the cooldown on the mana potion? Perhaps no point in Willpower is needed for the Vanguard with potion, Bolster, and Second Wind. More points to Strength and Cunning is always good.

1. Aveline should be a constitution tank with no points in cunning if you ask me. The reason why is that she has 3 very useful abilities which transfer damage from a party member to herself. Constitution helps make these abilities (bodyguard) much more useful while cunning does nothing for them. You also need at least 1 point in strength per level to be able to hit the enemy with any sort of reliability.

2. Its possible that strength is not needed for Aveline, but how will she generate threat? As far as I know, damaging enemies is the only way to do so. If strength isnt needed for Aveline I would go either 1.5/1.5 cunning and constitution, or just 3 constitution.

3. Bulwark is 5 seconds of immunity every 10 or 15 seconds (most likely 15 seconds). That is a 50% to 33% damage reduction. Its an awesome talent. Tremor will stun your own party in nightmare.

[JulianoV]

I wholeheartedly support this thread. I owe a significant amount of my love for ME2's mechanics due to Sabresandiego and AverageGatsby runs with the biotic classes and their frantic, yet freeflowinge take on Insanity. I however believe there could be some significant hurdles this time around. I love the idea of a 2-hander hacking and slashing throughout Nightmare, but it seems tremendously difficult as of now.

It is obviously not the ideal tank and the only way to amass DPS is by getting bunches of stuff around you as the Bravery bonuses pile up. Keeping oneself alive through that seems pretty unlikely on Nightmare. Other than that, FF can destroy both the single target melee rogue or the dedicated damage soaking tank, That would probably end up forcing the party to split up the enemy groups, and even that can be tremendously troublesome,since aggro in this game, from what I could gather so far, seems to be a bit all or nothing.

Even with this apparent river of negativity, I'm very excited for the 2 handed vanguard even if it turns out to be sub-optimal for Nightmare. The idea of a huge weapon wielding champion strikes me as more lore consistant than that of a mage, him being the Champion of Kirkwall and all, though the character's family background kind of makes up for it.

By the way, when it comes to mobility, is there such a thing as attacks of opportunity? I can see myself having to reposition to make good use of the not that impressive frontal normal attack of the 2 handed weapon as I avoid drowning in hurlocks?

All in all, great work as usual Sabre, and I can't wait to see how this one develops.

Modifié par JulianoV, 26 février 2011 - 02:08 .

[Sabresandiego]

1. Arcane Wall was nerfed from 20% to 5% according to a dev

2. Specialization points unlock specializations for Hawke, but not any abilities within them. You have to use ability points for that.

3. Hawke must also use ability points to get the abilities/talents within a specialization

4. Bulwark takes 0 micro if you have a good tactic system setup. Something simple like Self ---> Health <95% ---> Cast Bulwark will have aveline using Bulwark almost every time the cooldown is available.

[Sabresandiego]

The way Im designing Aveline, the only 2 active abilities she is going to use are taunt and bulwark. She should have enough stamina to be able to rotate those 2 abilities every cooldown, especially considering she has rally and unite.

[Zhel_Ryn]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

2. Specialization points unlock specializations for Hawke, but not any abilities within them. You have to use ability points for that.
3. Hawke must also use ability points to get the abilities/talents within a specialization
-- That's weird. So Hawke can have a maximum of 3 Specialization points? Why bother with the points then? Wouldn't a simple multiple choice question (A: Berserker; B: Templar; C: Reaver;) have sufficed?
Specialization points come the same way they did in DA:O. One point is given to Hawke at levels 7 and 14. I don't have the dev post to link, but this was something confirmed.

4. Bulwark takes 0 micro if you have a good tactic system setup. Something simple like Self ---> Health <95% Cast Bulwark will have aveline using Bulwark almost every time the cooldown is available.
-- I'm not sure I want her to activate it whenever the cooldown is available - I want her to activate it when a particularly hard blow is about to land on her, like right before an Ogre smash. If activating such an ability as often as possible is the optimal way to use it, then the game is not optimally designed.

I tried something like Surrounded by >2 enemies => Cast Stonewall and finds that it drains her Stamina way too quickly.
Unless they did a number on the Tactics available, there wasn't anything available (even with Adv Tactics mod on PC DAO) that would allow the AI to recognize a high damage attack is incoming. Best options would be one of the tactics listed here, or maybe just a target = elite rank or higher -- cast bulwark tactic.

A tankbot, fitting for Aveline =P. Adding battlemaster group buffs for her? Getting friendly with her and using more of her guardian abilities would be good additions, letting her buff your carnage machine Hawke as well as transfering portions of what damage s/he takes to boot.

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 26 février 2011 - 04:50 .

[Sabresandiego]

A fully buffed Aveline with heros synergy, elite bodyguard, and her friendly passive can absorb 75% of the damage which Hawke takes. That essentially makes a 200HP Hawke into 800HP Hawke if you build Aveline with nothing but constitution to be able to survive that kind of damage transfer. Aveline is looking to be an excellent companion so far. To bad she is under appreciated.