193 réponses à ce sujet

[KennethAFTopp]

Attribute dispersal seems much less important in DA2 than DA:O

[Urazz]

-Skorpious- wrote...

What endgame stats should I be aiming for if I am the party tank? STR and CON are musts, but I have to factor in WILL and CUN as well now.

I'm thinking investing 2 out of the 3 points in Strength and Constitution are best and then alternating the 3rd point in each level into will and constitution until you feel your hp and stamina are high enough.

[Atmosfear3]

Judging from the abilities available to a sword'n'board tank, I don't think it would be necessary to get cunning or very much at all. Willpower is also a tricky stat in that you probably want more only if you intend on using a lot of sustained abilities. In the demo my Hawke never needed to down stamina draughts at all, tank or 2H.

[timski]

Vena_86 - Attacks that don't hit glance. Glances do less damage, especially on higher difficulties. Hence you'll never see a miss, as such.


Defense, "determines the likelihood of evading enemy attack."

The raw defense value (which we'll call r again) is calculated in the same way as attack, except it is based on the Cunning attribute, c, hence:

r = 14.52 * EXP( 0.1142 * c )

Except there's a quirk at Cunning 11, which gives 36 r in-game, vs 51 predicted. So that dramatic first point increases that got everyone excited might be buggy.

Here's the level 6 data, again, for normal (n%), lieutenant (l%) and boss (b%) enemies.

c_ . . r__ . . n%_ . . l%_ . . b%_
----------------------------------
11 . . 036 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
12 . . 057 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
13 . . 064 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
14 . . 072 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
15 . . 081 . . 008 . . 005 . . 005
16 . . 090 . . 013 . . 005 . . 005
17 . . 101 . . 020 . . 005 . . 005
18 . . 114 . . 032 . . 012 . . 005
19 . . 127 . . 050 . . 030 . . 010 <-- Level 6 optimum?
20 . . 143 . . 054 . . 034 . . 014
21 . . 160 . . 058 . . 038 . . 018
22 . . 179 . . 062 . . 042 . . 022
23 . . 201 . . 067 . . 047 . . 027
24 . . 225 . . 071 . . 051 . . 031
25 . . 252 . . 075 . . 055 . . 035
26 . . 283 . . 079 . . 059 . . 039
27 . . 318 . . 080 . . 062 . . 042
28 . . 355 . . 080 . . 066 . . 046
29 . . 400 . . 080 . . 069 . . 049

Similar pattern to attack, but there are differences:

1. The key "optimum" point is where n=50%, rather than n=100%.

2. The lowest possible value is 5%, regardless of Cunning.

3. The maximum possible is 80% (at least that's how it looks).

The level pattern looks identical. Hence n=50% where Cunning © = 10 + ( level * 1.5 ) - rounded up to the nearest whole value.


Finally a note on Armor: Armor has a raw value that increases automatically with each level-up. However the actual physical damage disregarded percentages remain the same with each level-up (assuming you don't change armor). The l% is always 10% less than the n%, and the b% is always 10% below the l%. For example, n=60%, l=50%, b=40%. There appear to be odd rounding errors. What's unexpected about this relationship is that the armor dropping in the demo state a straight +armor bonus, not +% bonus. Maybe the demo characters are all wearing +% armor?

[Sabresandiego]

Thats an interesting table, what it tells me more than anything is to invest 0 points in cunning per level, or 2-3 per level. Investing a mediocre amount like 1 per level is like throwing points away because you need more cunning every level to have the same effect as the previous level. If you arent willing to invest a minimum of 1.5 points in cunning per level then you shouldn't put anything in it.

At level 6, 5 points in cunning is roughly the same defense wise as 0 in cunning. You cant half-ass cunning, either you go heavy into cunning, or not at all.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 23 février 2011 - 06:16 .

[timski]

Agreed, Sabresandiego. I'll call it the "2 x 1.5 strategy": 3 points per level, with attributes optimised for an average of 1.5 per level each. Hence, all other things being equal, you should expect to invest in 2 attributes in parallel, one of which is your class's primary attribute. Naturally all other things won't be equal, but it's a logical insight into how the attributes have been designed: Those numbers are no accident.

[Veovim]

Thanks for drawing up those tables; there's some interesting data in them. I wonder what the raw values mean under the hood.
I'm thinking Sabresandiego is absolutely right that cunning is an all or nothing stat--either keep it up to date at all levels, or just don't bother. It'll be interesting to see how modals like heroic aura and arcane shield play out in the real game. You could in theory get a half decent defense rate (vs. normal enemies only) without any investment in cunning, though it remains to be seen whether the amount of mana reserved makes this prohibitively expensive. The demo is kind of odd with modals not costing anything, and (probably) greatly increased mana/stamina regen.
I'm more than a little curious how much damage in a typical build comes from weapons, and how much comes from stats. Origins had relatively little from base weapons and lots from stats, but I've got the impression that DA2 may be the other way around, and your primary stat may not be overly important outside of keeping attack rate at 100%, and maybe for equipping gear.

Modifié par Veovim, 23 février 2011 - 06:52 .

[timski]

Veovim - DA2 is indeed reversed, making weapons far more important. You gain +1 raw point of damage for every +2 primary attribute. That's a trivial increases, given that a level 6 Bethany has (from memory) over 60 raw damage (presumably from a weapon) before considering Strength points.

[Sabresandiego]

Timski, when you say abilities hit by default, does this mean they don't miss?

[Sabresandiego]

timski wrote...

Veovim - DA2 is indeed reversed, making weapons far more important. You gain +1 raw point of damage for every +2 primary attribute. That's a trivial increases, given that a level 6 Bethany has (from memory) over 60 raw damage (presumably from a weapon) before considering Strength points.

+1 raw damage per +2 attribute or +1 DPS per 2 attribute?

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 23 février 2011 - 06:53 .

[Veovim]

Sabresandiego wrote...
Timski, when you say abilities hit by default, does this mean they don't miss?
...
+1 raw damage per +2 attribute or +1 DPS per 2 attribute?

Correct, attacks don't miss, but get glancing blows for decreased damage instead (except for some attacks that can be dodged manually, like an ogre charge).
+1 raw damage per 2 attribute

[Sabresandiego]

Veovim wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...
Timski, when you say abilities hit by default, does this mean they don't miss?
...
+1 raw damage per +2 attribute or +1 DPS per 2 attribute?

Correct, attacks don't miss, but get glancing blows for decreased damage instead (except for some attacks that can be dodged manually, like an ogre charge).
+1 raw damage per 2 attribute

Im referring to abilities like mighty blow. he says abilities hit by defeault. Does this mean abilities like mighty blow cant glance?

[timski]

Abilities hitting by default was a Peter Thomas comment: "All basic attacks for all classes have a to-hit roll. If it's not a hit, party members don't miss, they glance (less than normal damage, depending on difficulty). Abilities hit by default. Enemies with displacement (I think it's called Dodge ingame) can be completely missed."



+1 raw damage per +2 attribute. I'd need to look again at DPS. At the start both stats are similar, but that may not last.

[Sabresandiego]

If abilities hit by default, meaning they can't glance, then it is possible to completely ignore your primary stat and go for some unique build that focuses on crits and abilities instead, and rarely auto attacks. Thats an interesting one to think about.

Probably a bad idea, since auto attacks seem pretty important. Might be worth trying though.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 23 février 2011 - 07:06 .

[Sabresandiego]

Sabresandiego wrote...

If abilities hit by default, meaning they can't glance, then it is possible to completely ignore your primary stat and go for some unique build that focuses on crits and abilities instead, and rarely auto attacks. Thats an interesting one to think about.

Probably a bad idea, since auto attacks seem pretty important. Might be worth trying though.

Quoting my own post, because I just noticed that timski mentioned the exact same things as me on the previous page. So I have a math question for you, regarding damage based warriors. Ignore the attack benefits of strength for this and focus on damage.

If strength gives 1 damage per 2 strength, and dexterity gives 1 crit per dexterity, which attribute increases damage by more? Here is my math. Crits do 150% damage so 1 point in dexterity is worth a .5% increase to your total damage per point (.75% if you get the muscle talent). Strength is a flat .5 damage per point. So this means that if your damage is under 100, strength boosts damage by more per point then dexterity, however once your damage is over 100 (67 with muscle), dexterity now boosts damage by more per point.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 23 février 2011 - 07:27 .

[Sabresandiego]

One thing we may have overlooked: ability damage: What is the formula for ability damage? If primary attributes give +1 damage per 2 points for autoattack, how do they effect ability damage?

[Edge2177]

Going to need about 50 dexterity to wear the highest ranked leather armors for rogue, also. From what I can tell.

[Atmosfear3]

Sabresandiego wrote...

If abilities hit by default, meaning they can't glance, then it is possible to completely ignore your primary stat and go for some unique build that focuses on crits and abilities instead, and rarely auto attacks. Thats an interesting one to think about.

Probably a bad idea, since auto attacks seem pretty important. Might be worth trying though.

I think that this time around (DA2) since auto-attacks are so much faster, perhaps the greater emphasis will be placed upon abilities for damage rather than normal attacks. At least I believe this to be the case for warriors. Rogues are still amazing for their high sustained DPS. Warriors on the other hand seems to focus more on burst.

[timski]

I've taken a 1:1 split of Dexterity and Strength (so that attack chance is maintained at 100% for normal enemies, which is a must**) and compared it to a full-Strength build. Calculated the damage up to level 25, assuming a fixed 50-damage point weapon throughout. Full-strength was the clear winner. Raise the base weapon damage to about 75, and the Dex/Str build produces similar damage to the full-strength build. Higher, Dex/Str starts to produce more damage *on average*. We'd still need to consider "streakiness" - the chance of a sequence of poor rolls with dexterity, compared to the reliable damage of the full-strength build.

There are *a lot* of ability/talent-related wildcards here. Not least ability damage, which is derived from raw damage***. But a first look suggests that Dex/Str warriors could be viable, if rather fragile!

Added: To give some context, at 100 base weapon damage:

* A half-strength build with the other half a non-damage attribute (like constitution) gives about 10% less damage than a full-strength build.

* A dex/str build gives about 10% more than a full-strength build.

I added that clarification, because it shows just how important the weapon is. While Dex/Str is promising for absolute maximum warrior damage, for about 20% less damage you can have a build that can also do something else entirely, like survive a lot longer.

(** Try playing the demo without allocating any points to primary attributes, and things quickly become quite intense (rogue archers aside). Early on characters rely very heavily on auto-attacks. I suppose it might be possible to use ability-focused builds for members that join the party later, but I don't think the Champion can avoid taking points in their primary attribute on harder difficulties.)

(*** Again, Peter Thomas: "Ability damage is based on a characters base damage, which is based on their weapon damage + primary attribute bonuses." - and - "Ability damage is base damage multiplied by an ability damage factor. Base Damage = 10, Mighty Blow Damage = 40. If Base Damage is raised to 15, Might Blow Damage will go to 60 (x4). Those numbers are examples. Also there may be other factors calculated in on top of that when the damage is actually being dealt. Your Base Damage is weapon damage + attribute bonus + other specific things." - and keep in mind - "All attacks, spells and abilities that do damage (or force) can be critical hits.")

Modifié par timski, 23 février 2011 - 08:43 .

[0rz0]

With so many skills I think there's quite a few possible builds. From the demo, I was considering a warrior with sword and shield, but all dumped into strength. The damage reduction from armor is like 70+%, and you're able to withstand almost any debilitating physical effects. And since you put all into str the damage should be decent, specially with skills.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Is the "Magic" attribute used to beat spell resistance, like it is in DA:O?  If so, no matter how nice other attributes might be for mages a mage who wants to play on nightmare will have to continue to pump magic.

[Sabresandiego]

timski wrote...

I've taken a 1:1 split of Dexterity and Strength (so that attack chance is maintained at 100% for normal enemies, which is a must**) and compared it to a full-Strength build. Calculated the damage up to level 25, assuming a fixed 50-damage point weapon throughout. Full-strength was the clear winner. Raise the base weapon damage to about 75, and the Dex/Str build produces similar damage to the full-strength build. Higher, Dex/Str starts to produce more damage *on average*. We'd still need to consider "streakiness" - the chance of a sequence of poor rolls with dexterity, compared to the reliable damage of the full-strength build.

There are *a lot* of ability/talent-related wildcards here. Not least ability damage, which is derived from raw damage***. But a first look suggests that Dex/Str warriors could be viable, if rather fragile!

Added: To give some context, at 100 base weapon damage:

* A half-strength build with the other half a non-damage attribute (like constitution) gives about 10% less damage than a full-strength build.

* A dex/str build gives about 10% more than a full-strength build.

I added that clarification, because it shows just how important the weapon is. While Dex/Str is promising for absolute maximum warrior damage, for about 20% less damage you can have a build that can also do something else entirely, like survive a lot longer.

(** Try playing the demo without allocating any points to primary attributes, and things quickly become quite intense (rogue archers aside). Early on characters rely very heavily on auto-attacks. I suppose it might be possible to use ability-focused builds for members that join the party later, but I don't think the Champion can avoid taking points in their primary attribute on harder difficulties.)

(*** Again, Peter Thomas: "Ability damage is based on a characters base damage, which is based on their weapon damage + primary attribute bonuses." - and - "Ability damage is base damage multiplied by an ability damage factor. Base Damage = 10, Mighty Blow Damage = 40. If Base Damage is raised to 15, Might Blow Damage will go to 60 (x4). Those numbers are examples. Also there may be other factors calculated in on top of that when the damage is actually being dealt. Your Base Damage is weapon damage + attribute bonus + other specific things." - and keep in mind - "All attacks, spells and abilities that do damage (or force) can be critical hits.")

The problem with dexterity is that it only does 1 thing for warriors, boost damage. And it doesn't beat strength in this regard until you get to 100 damage (67 with muscle). Strength on the other hand boosts your attack continuously, which is nice for leuitenants and bosses, and gives you fortitude which we dont have a table for yet. It would be interesting to know if fortitude caps out as well.

Clearly the smart way to build a damage based warrior is to pump only strength until your damage is at 100 (67 with muscle). At this point you can choose to invest in dexterity as well to maximize damage output.

However like you said, the third option is to boost survivability with constitution. If you pumped constitution at 1 point per level, and strength at 2 points per level for 20 levels youd have the following:

160hp warrior with maximum damage and maximum fortitude
vs
260hp warrior with (maximum damage - 10) and (maximum fortitude -20)

Even if we assume gear doubles our starting health pool, thats a 320hp warrior vs 420hp warrior (a 30% increase in health). That difference might be meaningless if there is a tank though. The second character appears more powerful, especially if fortitude has diminishing returns similar to attack and defense. 

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 février 2011 - 12:23 .

[Sabresandiego]

Force reactions work based on how much damage you take vs your total health.if any single hit does more than 10% of your max health, you'll play a reaction animation (of arying strength) and your current action will be interrupted. Some attacks have a bonus to force as well (say a x2 multiplier, so 5% of your health in one hit counts as if it was 10% for force purposes).



(Damage * Force Multiplier) - Fortitude = Force of the attack



should be added to this post

[HolyAvenger]

Hm, my first instinct for a warrior is - mostly Str. a little bit of Cun to keep defense at around 35-50%. Dex/Con when Attack is over a 100.



More balanced building than DAO required anyway.

[Balgin Stondraeg]

How depressing. They managed to turn Constitution into even more of a dump stat than they'd already made it in Origins. Now it doesn't even add to physical resistance any more .