193 réponses à ce sujet

[manneger]

I already regret reading this (great work though timski!). Now i will feel like i have to invest 1.5 points/level in cun/str if i want to utilize them.



I really wish the game could be built up so this kind of stuff wouldnt be necessary. Why not have linear progression all along so that adding 1 point in an attribute contributes as much as the next point at least up untill some max value..

[timski]

manneger - I'd caution against reading my analysis so simply:



The "2 x 1.5" idea is only optimum for a limited set of criteria. At best it should be read as a way to start thinking about attributes and builds, not an absolute rule. Abilities/talents will introduce extra variations. There are all kinds of unknowns, like bonuses from equipment, plot-related attribute bonuses, and such, which effectively give you more attribute points to play with at each level than 3. Then practical considerations, like health or stamina forcing trade-offs away from the attack/defense optimum. For example, in the other thread Peter Thomas suggests a viable Aveline build using approximately 1:1:1 (strength/cunning/constitution).



Plus the caveat that this is based on the demo, which might have changed by release...

[manneger]

timski wrote...

manneger - I'd caution against reading my analysis so simply:

The "2 x 1.5" idea is only optimum for a limited set of criteria. At best it should be read as a way to start thinking about attributes and builds, not an absolute rule. Abilities/talents will introduce extra variations. There are all kinds of unknowns, like bonuses from equipment, plot-related attribute bonuses, and such, which effectively give you more attribute points to play with at each level than 3. Then practical considerations, like health or stamina forcing trade-offs away from the attack/defense optimum. For example, in the other thread Peter Thomas suggests a viable Aveline build using approximately 1:1:1 (strength/cunning/constitution).

Plus the caveat that this is based on the demo, which might have changed by release...

Yeah, i realize that. And i would never do the 2*1.5 thing since i like to roleplay a bit and put my attribute points out where i feel like they should be rather than where they would do the most use.. But unless the formulas are different in the actual game the problem persists - if i just put points where i feel like i wanna improve for every level i will likely get incredibly gimped. I wouldnt mind loosing out a little, but the difference from averaging 1 and 1.5 points in cunning or attack-based attribute is so big it may well in essence feel like playing on a different difficulty level. There might of course be something like the fade in DAO where you got a lot of attribute points, in which case the problem might be smaller, but there is still a risk of running into the same issues.

Basically what i am trying to say is that i would like to just happily put my points somewhat randomly, for instance adding some cunning just because i feel like my character should be in possession of some cunning. But if those few points i put into cunning will provide close to 0 bonus to defence (possibly even after adding equipment or questrelated attriute points gained) then..
If the system had been linear it wouldnt have been much of a problem, i never aim for some min-max kind of optimized build, but your tables just show such incredibly poor payoff from some attribute points, for def / att anyway.

The example Peter Thomas gave to me points towards him either managing to average 1 extra attribute point per level (ie, .5 each on str and cun) or being a very skilled player managing to beat the game while almost only  recieving damage and crit bonus from all the points he put in cun and str, and very little attack and def bonus.

[Jwd]

just found out through some console commands that you gain 6 attributepoints at level 5 10 15 and 20 somehow i can only level to 22 in the demo.
at level 20 you need 48 in your primary stat to get an attack percentage of 100 against all including bosses. that means until level five you have to put all your points into the primary and after that 2 points and 1 point alternating on subsequent level ups,

Modifié par Jwd, 24 février 2011 - 04:43 .

[Trefecka]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Is the "Magic" attribute used to beat spell resistance, like it is in DA:O?  If so, no matter how nice other attributes might be for mages a mage who wants to play on nightmare will have to continue to pump magic.

Does anyone know how the spell resistance system works in DA2?  I'm assuming that there still is a spell resistance of sorts in nightmare, otherwise mages will be too kickass even with reduced CC durations.

Since misses have been removed from the combat system, are total resists also removed?  Either way, as Grumpy said if magic is the attribute for beating spell resistance mages may have no choice but to go pure magic.

[muse108]

I was confused to see that dexterity and cunning have switched roles and to my that makes no sense. Why is cunning now defense and dexterity critical chance? Please explain the logic in changing these 2 stats from origins

[Merced652]

wait no attack rating? .......

[Adhin]

Attack rating is based off your damage stat. Str for warriors, Dex for rogues, magic for mages.

[Loc'n'lol]

muse108 wrote...

I was confused to see that dexterity and cunning have switched roles and to my that makes no sense. Why is cunning now defense and dexterity critical chance? Please explain the logic in changing these 2 stats from origins

Cunning never affected critical chance in DAO.
And if you want a logical explanation you could say it takes cunning to read your opponents movements, see patterns, predict what they're going to do next and react accordingly.
In reality it all comes down to attribute balance though, really. If dex was defense and attack for rogues they could just pump one stat to hit hard and be hard to hit...

[muse108]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

muse108 wrote...

I was confused to see that dexterity and cunning have switched roles and to my that makes no sense. Why is cunning now defense and dexterity critical chance? Please explain the logic in changing these 2 stats from origins

Cunning never affected critical chance in DAO.
And if you want a logical explanation you could say it takes cunning to read your opponents movements, see patterns, predict what they're going to do next and react accordingly.
In reality it all comes down to attribute balance though, really. If dex was defense and attack for rogues they could just pump one stat to hit hard and be hard to hit...

you sure, I was under the impression it did? never really paid it much attention really I'm more confused about the cunning now being defense. Sure you can say you can read your  opponent but at the same time if you cant dodge it that wont save you

[Ultimecia]

So far my idea for the firstplay-through is for a 2h warrior attribute spread of 1-2str/1cun/0-1will.
- The strenght for obvious reasons

- The cunning is for harder crits, and it should be noted that crits don't only come from dexterity. Many talents (especially 2handed ones) add tons of crit. Also, Death Hex gives a 100% crit chance for battering down tough mobs so I feel it's rather inefficient to invest into dex at all (as a warrior).
Also I like the added toughness to the warrior with some cunning thrown in due to the dodges from added Defense. Even in the demo I find it noticable as I could evasion tank the ogre (66% defense)

- I found myself out of stamina at the end of the final demo battle, so I'm planning some Will, but I doubt I'll need it when my tank has Rally/Unite. (gives increased stamina regen)

Excellent data so far, keep it up


Somewhat off-topic: Any idea if the same buff stacks with itself? For example: Haste in DAO; and I'm thinking particulary double Arcane Shields or double Heroic Aura (I'm planning a double mage setup to getback to D&D basics: Divine caster, Arcane caster, Tank, melee DPS : )

Modifié par Ultimecia, 24 février 2011 - 10:58 .

[Sabresandiego]

As far as damage goes, cunning boosts damage the least of all warrior stats which improve damage. It raises your crit damage by 1%. Here is the math if you crit 50% of the time (which is way higher than what you would be critting).

Crit = 150% damage
1Cun= 151% damage
Thats a .666% increase in damage on crits, which occur 50% of the time.
Your current damage is .5 * 100% (normal damage half the time) + .5 * 150% (crits half the time) = 125%
New damage is .5 * 100% (normal damage half the time) + .5 * 151% (crits half the time) = 125.5%
Therefore 1 cunning is a .4% increase in total damage (your first point in cunning) after which its even worse.
At 20% crit (which is realistic) 1 cunning boosts your damage output by .18% Roughly 2 tenths of a percent

Compare to dexterity:
boosts crit by 1 %
Pretend you already have 50% crit
Your current damage is .5 * 100% (normal damage half the time) + .5 * 150% (crits half the time) = 125%
Calculate for 1 dexterity = .49 *100% + .51 * 150% = 125.5% = .4% improvement
At 20% crit (which is realistic) 1 dexterity boosts damage by .45% Almost half a percentage

Compare to strength:
1 strength =.5 damage
If your damage is 100 (which is super high) then 1 str = .5% improvement
At 50 damage 1 strength boosts your damage by 1%. Thats more than twice as good as dexterity and 5 times better than cunning.

Compare to constitution:
1con = 5 health
Starting health = 160
Health + 1con = 165
1con = 3.12% increase in survivability

So even with 50% crit and damage at 100, strength is still a better way to boost damage then dexterity or cunning for a warrior. Through most or all of the game your crit will be less than 50% and I believe damage under 100 but not sure. 

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 février 2011 - 11:40 .

[Atmosfear3]

Not sure if putting points into cunning is very necessary considering you can get the Muscle upgrade which increases your crit damage by 25%.

[Ultimecia]

Your numbers are correct. And coming from a pure dps point of view Str>Dex>Cun as you demonstrated.
My instinct on this however, is that the warrior needs burst; which he will get from 1/more crits or 2/harder crits. I prefer the 2nd because 1/ I can assure crits through Death Hex and 2/I like the added staying power the Defense boostfrom Cunning gives.
I feel with talents being the way they are a Str/Cun based 2handed warrior will be very meaty and bursty; which is exactly what a warrior should be. (Death Hex + Might/muscle + Cleave = terrible terrible damage)

I understand Dex is better in theory. I think Death Hex is underestimated though

@Atmo: I have considered Muscle, and it will stack with it nicely

Modifié par Ultimecia, 24 février 2011 - 11:25 .

[Sabresandiego]

Ultimecia wrote...

Your numbers are correct. And coming from a pure dps point of view Str>Dex>Cun as you demonstrated.
My instinct on this however, is that the warrior needs burst; which he will get from 1/more crits or 2/harder crits. I prefer the 2nd because 1/ I can assure crits through Death Hex and 2/I like the added staying power the Defense boostfrom Cunning gives.
I feel with talents being the way they are a Str/Cun based 2handed warrior will be very meaty and bursty; which is exactly what a warrior should be. (Death Hex + Might/muscle + Cleave = terrible terrible damage)

I understand Dex is better in theory. I think Death Hex is underestimated though

@Atmo: I have considered Muscle, and it will stack with it nicely

At 100% crit (death hex) here is the math for cunning
1(151%) / 1(150%) = .66666% increase in damage
At 75 damage, 1 strength = .66666% increase in damage

So even at 100% crit at all times, 1 strength is a bigger DPS increase then 1 cunning until you get to 75 damage per swing.

Cunning is worthless to a damage based warrior, unless you plan on tanking.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 février 2011 - 11:35 .

[Stardusk78]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Ultimecia wrote...

Your numbers are correct. And coming from a pure dps point of view Str>Dex>Cun as you demonstrated.
My instinct on this however, is that the warrior needs burst; which he will get from 1/more crits or 2/harder crits. I prefer the 2nd because 1/ I can assure crits through Death Hex and 2/I like the added staying power the Defense boostfrom Cunning gives.
I feel with talents being the way they are a Str/Cun based 2handed warrior will be very meaty and bursty; which is exactly what a warrior should be. (Death Hex + Might/muscle + Cleave = terrible terrible damage)

I understand Dex is better in theory. I think Death Hex is underestimated though

@Atmo: I have considered Muscle, and it will stack with it nicely

At 100% crit (death hex) here is the math for cunning
1(151%) / 1(150%) = .66666% increase in damage
At 75 damage, 1 strength = .66666% increase in damage

So even at 100% crit at all times, 1 strength is a bigger DPS increase then 1 cunning until you get to 75 damage per swing.

Cunning is worthless to a damage based warrior, unless you plan on tanking.

The real question is how valuable willpower is; will it be necessary to pump points into it for a warrior? or just 3 str every level?

[Ultimecia]

I plan on doing the maximum amount of damage, without being a glass canon. I think Str/cunning will let me do that. I will most likely pick up Turn the Blade for one point, possibly 2 for the Fortitude increase and not use a tank at all.(In addition to an Arcane Shield/Heroic Aura mage)
Also as you point out, cunning gets better with more Str. Guess we'll have to wait and see what end-game raw damage is like

Modifié par Ultimecia, 24 février 2011 - 11:41 .

[Maconbar]

Ultimecia wrote...

Your numbers are correct. And coming from a pure dps point of view Str>Dex>Cun as you demonstrated.
My instinct on this however, is that the warrior needs burst; which he will get from 1/more crits or 2/harder crits. I prefer the 2nd because 1/ I can assure crits through Death Hex and 2/I like the added staying power the Defense boostfrom Cunning gives.
I feel with talents being the way they are a Str/Cun based 2handed warrior will be very meaty and bursty; which is exactly what a warrior should be. (Death Hex + Might/muscle + Cleave = terrible terrible damage)

I understand Dex is better in theory. I think Death Hex is underestimated though

@Atmo: I have considered Muscle, and it will stack with it nicely

My general impression is that burst dmg seems less important in DA:2 compared to DA:O. Admittedly this is just based on relatively uncritical playthroughs of the demo.

[Sabresandiego]

Ultimecia wrote...

I plan on doing the maximum amount of damage, without being a glass canon. I think Str/cunning will let me do that. I will most likely pick up Turn the Blade for one point, possibly 2 for the Fortitude increase and not use a tank at all.(In addition to an Arcane Shield/Heroic Aura mage)
Also as you point out, cunning gets better with more Str. Guess we'll have to wait and see what end-game raw damage is like

11 . . 036 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
12 . . 057 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
13 . . 064 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
14 . . 072 . . 005 . . 005 . . 005
15 . . 081 . . 008 . . 005 . . 005
16 . . 090 . . 013 . . 005 . . 005
17 . . 101 . . 020 . . 005 . . 005
18 . . 114 . . 032 . . 012 . . 005
19 . . 127 . . 050 . . 030 . . 010 <-- Level 6 optimum?

If you put 1 point in cunning per level, at level 6 youre at #17 on this chart. thats +15% survival against normal enemies for 6 points. Roughly 2.5% survival against normal enemies per cunning, 0% boost against leuitenant and bosses. Cunning is worthless unless you invest 1.5+ per level for a warrior.

If you want survival for a DPS warrior, you should do 1 constituion per level, not 1 cunning.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2011 - 12:36 .

[Ultimecia]

The thing with defense, just like Resilience - or avoidance in general - in WoW it gets better as it gets higher but I'll concede the tables look pretty grim for a 2Str/1Cun spread.
Big picture though I see no need for Dex whatsoever with excellent talents like Bravery, Sunder and Death Hex; so my only increase in damage is more Str (but no point in going over 100% hit) or Cun, which has the nice added effect of survivabilty. 
EDIT: Using the formula's on the previous pages

As for constitution, I find 5hp per point very underwhelming but then again I never liked stamina in WoW either but I am a defensive player nonetheless

Modifié par Ultimecia, 25 février 2011 - 12:21 .

[Sabresandiego]

Ultimecia wrote...

The thing with defense, just like Resilience - or avoidance in general - in WoW it gets better as it gets higher but I'll concede the tables look pretty grim for a 2Str/1Cun spread. 
EDIT: Using the formula's on the previous pages

As for constitution, I find 5hp per point very underwhelming but then again I never liked stamina in WoW either but I am a defensive player nonetheless

2STR 1CUN is bad however 1.5cun/1.5 strength can work. The stats show that the ideal build for a DPS warrior is going to be pretty much all strength. If you want survivability I suggest 2STR 1CON or 1.5STR/1.5CON. Cunning doesnt start to shine until you have 2 per level. Primary stats for a warrior are Strength, Constitution, and Willpower. You want maximum strength, with just enough con and wil to let you be able to survive the battle and perform all your abilities.

For a tank warrior on the other hand, I think 2cunning/1con or 3con is best. You don't need any strength because abilities always hit, and you dont really need your autoattack damage. You can also get passives which eliminate the need for fortitude.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2011 - 12:25 .

[Atmosfear3]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Ultimecia wrote...

Your numbers are correct. And coming from a pure dps point of view Str>Dex>Cun as you demonstrated.
My instinct on this however, is that the warrior needs burst; which he will get from 1/more crits or 2/harder crits. I prefer the 2nd because 1/ I can assure crits through Death Hex and 2/I like the added staying power the Defense boostfrom Cunning gives.
I feel with talents being the way they are a Str/Cun based 2handed warrior will be very meaty and bursty; which is exactly what a warrior should be. (Death Hex + Might/muscle + Cleave = terrible terrible damage)

I understand Dex is better in theory. I think Death Hex is underestimated though

@Atmo: I have considered Muscle, and it will stack with it nicely

At 100% crit (death hex) here is the math for cunning
1(151%) / 1(150%) = .66666% increase in damage
At 75 damage, 1 strength = .66666% increase in damage

So even at 100% crit at all times, 1 strength is a bigger DPS increase then 1 cunning until you get to 75 damage per swing.

Cunning is worthless to a damage based warrior, unless you plan on tanking.

The real question is how valuable willpower is; will it be necessary to pump points into it for a warrior? or just 3 str every level?

Judging from the demo, unless you intend on using a ton of sustained abilities, you need a minimal amount of willpower probably. I wouldn't invest more than 10+ points into willpower.

[Ultimecia]

I would definitely wait for some info on the stat requirements for items before not investing in Strenght for your tanks

I also find it hard to judge the damage without seeing the numbers in game as I can't feel how much the damage increase from strenghts actually is.

[Sabresandiego]

Ultimecia wrote...

I would definitely wait for some info on the stat requirements for items before not investing in Strenght for your tanks
I also find it hard to judge the damage without seeing the numbers in game as I can't feel how much the damage increase from strenghts actually is.

Strength is a flat 1 damage per 2 strength. In the beginning of the game, this is a HUGE boost compared to dexterity and cunning because your damage is so low. Later in the game, if your damage per attack is signficantly over 100 (67 with muscle) then dexterity and cunning might be able to compete with strength (although dexterity is redundant with death hex and autocrit abilities like tornado).

If you are set on having cunning on your warrior, you can make a very good warrior if you have at least 1.5 points per level in cunning and no less. This is ofcourse all going by the math from the demo. Who knows if they changed numbers around since then.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2011 - 12:44 .

[Ultimecia]

I'll rephrase: I have no idea how much the Str will affect our total DPS. Is it 50/50 with weapon base damage, or rather lobsided to one or another side.

If the main contribution to DPS is weapon, then 1.5/1.5 cunning spread it is. If not, probably 2Str/1Con or Will (sustaineds)