62 réponses à ce sujet

[Loc'n'lol]

bloodreaperfx wrote...

If not, there is really, no reason NOT to release a Toolset.

Well, the reason would be that they can't be bothered, really.

[ladydesire]

grim_reaper_13 wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

Ray...they know we want them and why.

They also know why they cannot provide them...but of all the games where tools have been retained ...have you ever been given a satisfactory answer..other than "we are concentrating all our efforts on the game right now,we will look again at tools sometime after release." followed by "Unfortunately the problems we have encountered are not trivial in nature and we can't say to what extent any toolset may be of use" followed by ....silence !!

Well the toolkit for Fallout 3 wasn't released on launch day but that didn't stop the game getting some good mods. Just saying........<_<

Yes, and the only reason the DA Toolset was available the first week the game was out is because Bioware held the PC version release off until the console versions were ready. They had not intended to have a simultaious release of the toolset either, so any delay in releasing the update for the toolset is something that is planned.

[bloodreaperfx]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

bloodreaperfx wrote...

If not, there is really, no reason NOT to release a Toolset.

Well, the reason would be that they can't be bothered, really.

I would understand that if they need to build a toolset from scratch. But they said the Origins toolset is completely viable. It just needs some updates.

[Walker White]

bloodreaperfx wrote...

I would understand that if they need to build a toolset from scratch. But they said the Origins toolset is completely viable. It just needs some updates.

But updates require money as you have to pay someone to do it.  That is the one and only reason that no one has committed to it yet.

There have been several threads on this in the past.  They all agree the toolset is a good thing, for exactly the same reasons everyone in this thread gives.  They just do not know (yet) if they have the money to update it.  It will probably depend on initial sales.

[philbo1965uk]

brownybrown wrote...

Sorry, Im not sure  I understand you(or that I made myself understandable)
I think I agree with you.
I was saying that most of the fan made mods(morphs/items/apparel) were of SUPERIOR quality to bioware's ingame   work except for  mission type fan made mods were not of the same quality, ie -alley or murders/temple of vulak, they were really good but didnt have proffesional VO work and lacked polish.
RE EA/Activision
 I can see what you are saying,  Games that are played  for many years dont suit the business needs of  game publishers .  However graphics do  change (and the next  gen moving into 3d even more so in a few years) and that I think means that  some  game companies like to build up brand loyalty, look at the brand loyalty that Civilization/Fallout/TES  series have created. Releasing a game every 2 years should fit into that model. Bioware has to decide whether they  want to take that approach or  release games annually and cut off modding, I really hope Bioware  choose the former for the Dragon AGE series.

I was refering to your generalisation of  custom mods being inferior...but Yes we are in agreement.

Good post.

I think though that people expect the Devs to have a real say.Unfortunately recent history has made us quite aware that once aquired by the publisher they have very litte say .
IMO cutting development to 12 month is hardly enough time for a Devteam to perform their art...Bioware may disagree but I wouldn't expect them to.

I could name a few Devteams that have lost respect and their reputation built up over decades.

The retaining of toolsets is IMO publisher guidance.Devteams are gamers at heart and they know the present situation regarding gaming is unsavoury.

I fully expect Devteams to divorce from publishers in future ..they are ruining creativity ,quality and reputations.

[Tabak]

bloodreaperfx wrote...

Meh, for some reason I think they try to limit modding for DA 2 in order to sell some outfits/weapons DLC's. If not, there is really, no reason NOT to release a Toolset.

There are plenty of reasons. Updating toolsets takes time and time = money. Bioware didn't release an updated toolset for Awakening. There's no reason to think they will release an update for DA2.

Bioware isn't just a games studio anymore, answering to gamers and their accountants. They are a money-making machine for EA and its shareholders. They might want to release an updated toolset but they have to be able to justify the cost of this to EA. If we get one, great. If not, I won't be surprised.

[Monochrome Wench]

One major issue Bioware might have with releasing their actual DAII toolset used to make the game is global illumination renderer used to do the lighting. Its extremely likely Bioware can not release that software to the public (third party licensed). So if they released the DAII toolset they actually used to make the game it would need the lighting system cut out and replaced with another one... such as the one from DA:O. As such it might be easier for them to just update the toolset from DA:O to read and write data in the formats expected by DAII instead, hence that suggestion.

Modifié par Monochrome Wench, 21 février 2011 - 12:47 .

[philbo1965uk]

Well Tabak...thats pretty much how it is.



I would want to add that modtools are undesirable to the publisher fullstop.Wether people agree or not custom content competes with DLC.It also adds longevity to a title.



If it was just down to justifying cost...people are willing to actually pay for a toolset either standalone or as an addition to DLC.So that pretty much rules that out.



We cannot ignore the obvious..Guitar hero was a demonstration of Publisher agenda..milk as much as possible from the one title and bang out another 12 month later..the sucker pool is limited.

[shreddog]

No toolset = no buy for me.

[Lyssistr]

Toolset => mods => harder to sell DLC with just 1 sword, 1 dagger and one mini-dungeon => you have to put real content into DLC => why bother making a toolset?

[philbo1965uk]

shreddog wrote...

No toolset = no buy for me.

Many others stand on the same principal.

Even those that make no use of them personally...they enjoy  the creativity of others.

However a new title every 12 month curtails modding..just isn't enough time to justify the effort .

I'm hoping people grow weary of the Hype and ultimate dissapointment of rushed games.

I don't see a return to 2 yr cycle or longer as possible with already aquired devteams...rather the small independant teams.They are the hardcore gamers only hope right now .

[Lyssistr]

philbo1965uk wrote...

shreddog wrote...

No toolset = no buy for me.

Many others stand on the same principal.

Even those that make no use of them personally...they enjoy  the creativity of others.

However a new title every 12 month curtails modding..just isn't enough time to justify the effort .

I'm hoping people grow weary of the Hype and ultimate dissapointment of rushed games.

I don't see a return to 2 yr cycle or longer as possible with already aquired devteams...rather the small independant teams.They are the hardcore gamers only hope right now .

/agree my hopes are with smaller, independent, dev teams.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 21 février 2011 - 01:33 .

[brownybrown]

Since I ve been reading this post I have come around to your way of thinking Philbo.

at the start I did think it was just a simple equation

tool-set +mods+ longevity of game title = good for bioware

But upon further reflection I think

old school computer games were more like electronic board games in a way , something you kept, played and enjoyed over a few (or longer) years.

EA have a very different concept i believe. For them, games, as their budgets, staff and share of the media pie increases (over music and movies) they should follow the path of a Hollywood blockbuster NOT monopoly or scrabble , it should be a huge hit, high sales figures in a short period of time, dlc ,then a tapering off of sales(and support) then the next big release soon after. One can see that in dragon age and mass effect, they are like interactive movies not electronic board games.

[NKKKK]

Well at least I'll have Skyrim.

[philbo1965uk]

brownybrown wrote...

Since I ve been reading this post I have come around to your way of thinking Philbo.
at the start I did think it was just a simple equation
tool-set +mods+ longevity of game title = good for bioware
But upon further reflection I think
old school computer games were more like electronic board games in a way , something you kept, played and enjoyed over a few (or longer) years.
EA have a very different concept i believe. For them, games, as their budgets, staff and share of the media pie increases (over music and movies) they should follow the path of a Hollywood blockbuster NOT monopoly or scrabble , it should be a huge hit, high sales figures in a short period of time, dlc ,then a tapering off of sales(and support) then the next big release soon after. One can see that in dragon age and mass effect, they are like interactive movies not electronic board games.

Believe it or not alot of people like to keep their NEW games....not everyone wants to trade them in after a week.

It is quite irrelevant wether they want to make a hollywood blockbuster or a glorified pacman..the toolset gives the customer longevity,which is the reason we want them.They don't want that ,clearly,as they are being retained across genre and publisher.

Not to mention a shorter development time is obviously reflected in the quality of the overall product.We see a very fine demonstration of this with DA2..the graphics are substandard and the game is shorter by more than half.Confident the cutscenes will have improved ...but if their intentions were to make a Hollywood blockbuster ,they haven't exactly invested alot of time.I'm sure you'll agree.

One Brown star for you though

Modifié par philbo1965uk, 22 février 2011 - 01:34 .

[Phoenixblight]

philbo1965uk wrote...

brownybrown wrote...

Since I ve been reading this post I have come around to your way of thinking Philbo.
at the start I did think it was just a simple equation
tool-set +mods+ longevity of game title = good for bioware
But upon further reflection I think
old school computer games were more like electronic board games in a way , something you kept, played and enjoyed over a few (or longer) years.
EA have a very different concept i believe. For them, games, as their budgets, staff and share of the media pie increases (over music and movies) they should follow the path of a Hollywood blockbuster NOT monopoly or scrabble , it should be a huge hit, high sales figures in a short period of time, dlc ,then a tapering off of sales(and support) then the next big release soon after. One can see that in dragon age and mass effect, they are like interactive movies not electronic board games.

Believe it or not alot of people like to keep their NEW games....not everyone wants to trade them in after a week.

It is quite irrelevant wether they want to make a hollywood blockbuster or a glorified pacman..the toolset gives the customer longevity,which is the reason we want them.They don't want that ,clearly,as they are being retained across genre and publisher.

Not to mention a shorter development time is obviously reflected in the quality of the overall product.We see a very fine demonstration of this with DA2..the graphics are substandard and the game is shorter by more than half.Confident the cutscenes will have improved ...but if their intentions were to make a Hollywood blockbuster ,they haven't exactly invested alot of time.I'm sure you'll agree.

One Brown star for you though

Games are being released within 2-3 years,  Fallout 3 to Skyrim exactly 3 years.  Mass Effect to Mass Effect 2  3 years + a few month and the next part of the series will be coming out this Winter with even shorter time frame. Infamous to Infamous 2 - 2 years. Time table =/= horrible quality in the right developers hands. 

Edit: There is a whole slew of games coming out within a 3 year time table Uncharted 3, Batman Arkham City, etc. 

Modifié par Phoenixblight, 22 février 2011 - 02:02 .

[Beerfish]

philbo1965uk wrote...

shreddog wrote...

No toolset = no buy for me.

Many others stand on the same principal.

Even those that make no use of them personally...they enjoy  the creativity of others.

However a new title every 12 month curtails modding..just isn't enough time to justify the effort .

I'm hoping people grow weary of the Hype and ultimate dissapointment of rushed games.

I don't see a return to 2 yr cycle or longer as possible with already aquired devteams...rather the small independant teams.They are the hardcore gamers only hope right now .

No, I'd say the no toolset. no buy crowd is not that large in the grand scheme of things.  And believe me I am all in favour of some kind of update to the Da toolset.

[Beerfish]

I would say that the inclusion of a toolset has very little to do with dlc strategy but does have to do with the cost of work related to make the toolset releaseable and then give some kind of support there after. A healthy toolset community can more than make up a few lost dlcs by making the life of the game last longer and getting more people to buy the game due to communtiy content (see nwn)

[Kileyan]

Lyssistr wrote...

Toolset => mods => harder to sell DLC with just 1 sword, 1 dagger and one mini-dungeon => you have to put real content into DLC => why bother making a toolset?

Except the devs themselves have said this logic while it might look good on paper, isn't what their research shows.

They fully agree that a toolset and mods keep games on peoples hard drives and in their minds longer, and add to DLC sales. People are more likely to purchase a small DLC to a game they still click on occasionally and play just to check out mods, rather than a game they haven't played in weeks/months, and might even have to reinstall to check out a new 7 dollar DLC.

[rayvioletta]

well made DLC will sell well regardless of a toolset

could Leliana's Song have been made with the toolset? possibly, there are a lot of talented modders. but would they have been able to get the voice acting or have it officially acknowledged as cannon (even if it does slightly contradict the version Leliana tells the Warden, that's dismissed easily enough as her not being comfortable going into too much detail)? would it have had the same feel if it hadn't been an official BioWare release?

I fully agree that some of the player created armour and weapons have been impressively high quality and could theoretically compete with similar things had BioWare released any, but personally I'd never pay money for non-story DLC anyway and to BioWare's credit (or the DA team at least since ME has had some) there hasn't been any DLC that's just weapons and/or armour except for the promotional DLCs which have been given for free

[BFBHLC]

There's only been one update to the DA1 toolset, and it's pretty much unsupported at this time. I don't see BioWare/EA International putting one out for DA2. No offense to BioWare, it's not their fault but if it were me I'd rather develop a game every 2-3 years, not on an annual basis. *ahem*

[FieryDove]

Please update toolset...pretty please?

[errant_knight]

Zeleen wrote...

maybe we should play the game first and then decide whether we "need" a toolset- perhaps the structure of the game would be too complex?? I dunno - just voicing like how would modding a weapon affect the leveling of the weapon? this is a new thing for DA the weapons themselves level up (upgrade).

I already know we need it, just from the initial stills. New armor ain't gonna make itself!

[Maria Caliban]

bloodreaperfx wrote...

Meh, for some reason I think they try to limit modding for DA 2 in order to sell some outfits/weapons DLC's. If not, there is really, no reason NOT to release a Toolset.

The toolset indirectly increases the profitability of DLCs, actually. Though not by a large amount.

[tj23wizard]

After playing the demo, it seems unlikely that there will be a Dragon Age 2 Toolset. From the appearance of the demo, the games are just too different in basic design and capacity. If EA allows Bioware to offer a toolset after launch, I'd be very surprised.

I don't mean to sound awful, but I'm thinking that the redesign from DA:O to DA2 means that EA has had Bioware focus on the short term rather than the long term. There will be a new Dragon Age in 2-3 years, probably redesigned again and without of a toolset.

I know Bioware would like to please the fans as much as possible, but I think EA doesn't see games as having a long term shelf life: only 2-3 years. I hope EA considers that a toolset for Elder Scrolls kept players interested in TES: Oblivion for the last 5 years, and TES:Morrowind for 8.  I'm fully expecting that DA:O will outlive its sequel.

Modifié par tj23wizard, 24 février 2011 - 05:49 .