33 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...
I don't always go for Warp bombs. I definitely don't when I'm playing Infiltrator, Soldier or Vanguard. So I'm not really choosing between Warp bombs and freezing things.

I'm not really sure why you specifically wouldn't want warp bombs, but I guess that's down to a player's preferred style.

It's all true, but there's just one problem with your reasoning. With Cryo Ammo it all happens automatically. No powers are being used, and you don't have to click anything. More often than not, I want this free freezing effect. Now if I could have Squad Pull Field Ammo, I guess I would use that instead.

Compared to a dedicated crowd control power I can see your point, but compared to Fire and Disruptor ammo, which not only crowd controls without providing my enemies with cover but also actually do damage to defences and health (which is why I'm shooting my enemies in the first place), I can't see any reason to use it. Inferno doesn't even need to cut through defences on surrounding enemies to crowd control.

Ultimately, this is the long and short of my issue with Cryo Ammo. It isn't a bad ammo in itself, but for what it actually does, there's virtually always a better ammo to use. The only situation I can think of is if you're fighting a strict 50/50 mix of synths and organics in an environment with little cover.... and realistically, how many situations does that actually happen in this game?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 20 février 2011 - 12:30 .

[termokanden]

JaegerBane wrote...

I'm not really sure why you specifically wouldn't want warp bombs, but I guess that's down to a player's preferred style.

Because you can't set up Warp bombs all the time anyway if you don't have biotics. Besides, I honestly prefer shooting things with the combat classes. Cryo Ammo works while I do my thing, Warp bombs need some extra effort to set up.

It's even worse on a console because you'll be missing key bindings so you have to bring up the power wheel to set up Warp bombs.

Finally you also need specific squadmates to set up Warp bombs.

Note that it's not just a matter of being lazy. How many Warp bombs can you set up if you don't have biotics on your main character?

Compared to a dedicated crowd control power I can see your point, but compared to Inferno and Disruptor ammo, which not only crowd controls without providing my enemies with cover but also actually do damage to defences and health (which is why I'm shooting my enemies in the first place), I can't see any reason to use it. Inferno doesn't even need to cut through defences on surrounding enemies to crowd control.

The extra Inferno Ammo effect doesn't exist in the squad ammo version so that doesn't help at all. And now that we're talking about damage, may I remind you that frozen targets take extra damage.

Of course there's also a problem for infiltrators because they don't even have access to Incendiary Ammo.

As for Disruptor Ammo. Yeah sure, maybe against synthetics. Chance to overheat weapons isn't nearly as good as freezing them I think. They also take more damage while frozen.

Modifié par termokanden, 20 février 2011 - 12:35 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...
Because you can't set up Warp bombs all the time anyway if you don't have biotics. Besides, I honestly prefer shooting things with the combat classes. Cryo Ammo works while I do my thing, Warp bombs need some extra effort to set up.

It's even worse on a console because you'll be missing key bindings so you have to bring up the power wheel to set up Warp bombs.

Finally you also need specific squadmates to set up Warp bombs.

Note that it's not just a matter of being lazy. How many Warp bombs can you set up if you don't have biotics on your main character?

I didn't mean to imply that every player should be trying their hardest to incorporate warp bombs into their playthrough, all I was saying is that I couldn't work out why you specifically were avoiding them. As you say, you need the right character to set it all up if you're a soldier, but then again you're likely to have these anyway as the warp-bomb enabler characters tend to be pretty good (Miranda and Thane particularly) in general.

It sounded like you were saying that you specifically didn't want warp bombs regardless of which team mates you had, which is what I was a bit bemused over. But, as I say, your style is your own.

The extra Inferno Ammo effect doesn't exist in the squad ammo version so that doesn't help at all. And now that we're talking about damage, may I remind you that frozen targets take extra damage.

Of course there's also a problem for infiltrators because they don't even have access to Incendiary Ammo.

As for Disruptor Ammo. Yeah sure, maybe against synthetics. Chance to overheat weapons isn't nearly as good as freezing them I think. They also take more damage while frozen.

I know frozen targets take double damage. The problem is they need to be frozen in the first place, which only happens when they've had their defences removed. The other ammos help out in that regard and their CC abilities kick in once defences are down without me needing to do anything (which, given your justification for the cryo ammo seems to be that it happens automatically, strikes me as surprising that you set so little stock with such a feature). Not to mention an enemy with defences removed is often better handled by active abilities.

And regardless of the boost to damage the freeze effect gives, it doesn't do my squad any good while they're lying behind cover safe from my squad's fire.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 20 février 2011 - 12:52 .

[termokanden]

That rarely happens to me. That might be because currently I'm playing an infiltrator and I keep flanking. But I've noticed that with some enemies, it's quite clear that it's easier to get through their defenses than health. I guess it's most obvious with husks. Tons of health and not all that much armor. I just shoot through their armor and move on. Then magically they start shattering around me.

That said. It's not a miracle of a power. I just think it's a great squad ammo to set at the beginning of the mission and usually it'll end up helping me quite a bit. On the other hand, since I'm doing by far the most damage, I don't notice it all that much if I use another squad ammo (except perhaps incindiary in the first few missions).

I'm also not saying you HAVE to have it. But people just keep saying it's worthless for higher difficulties, which is blatantly not true.

Modifié par termokanden, 20 février 2011 - 02:29 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

That rarely happens to me. That might be because currently I'm playing an infiltrator and I keep flanking. But I've noticed that with some enemies, it's quite clear that it's easier to get through their defenses than health. I guess it's most obvious with husks. Tons of health and not all that much armor. I just shoot through their armor and move on. Then magically they start shattering around me.

I think it largely happens to me due to the fact that If I'm playing a soldier, I'm playing it in a commando-ish fashion and hence I'm more interested in good positioning. Sometimes that means flanking, but mostly it means finding good spots to rain down shots and that often means having to compromise a good spot because my enemies have fallen out of LoS. With a Vanguard I tend to play in a similar fashion. Hence why I put cryo down to being largely dependant on player style.

That said. It's not a miracle of a power. I just think it's a great squad ammo to set at the beginning of the mission and usually it'll end up helping me quite a bit. On the other hand, since I'm doing by far the most damage, I don't notice it all that much if I use another squad ammo (except perhaps incindiary in the first few missions).

I'm also not saying you HAVE to have it. But people just keep saying it's worthless for higher difficulties, which is blatantly not true.

I agree, it's not a terrible power and it's certainly not useless at insanity (in fact I would consider it a *better* power the higher up the difficulty it goes, as enemies have more health and hence it makes the CC and damage boost more effective).

I just don't like it for the reasons I've put forward

[lazuli]

termokanden wrote...
It's even worse on a console because you'll be missing key bindings so you have to bring up the power wheel to set up Warp bombs.

This gets aggravating after a while.  Often I just let my squadmates' powers languish because I can't be troubled to bring up the wheel when I'm having so much fun killing everything on my own.  I can't wait for Bioware to release an ultimate edition so I can finally switch over to PC.

Squad Cryo Ammo is especially attractive to console players because it's something you activate once (or every time you die), and then don't need to bother with again.

[tonnactus]

For a vanguard it can be a lifesaver sometimes.But for other classes its not that great.

[thisisme8]

The only time I don't use Squad Cryo is on my new Shockwave Vanguard vs. regular enemies. Husks still get frozen.

[Tony Gunslinger]

thisisme8 wrote...

The only time I don't use Squad Cryo is on my new Shockwave Vanguard vs. regular enemies. Husks still get frozen.

Ooo... I've tried to do a Shockwave adept once and failed miserably and gave up, so this I gotta see :O

Anyways, I've been re-playing the soldier, and I have to say that while I think cryo ammo is great, it is such a huge requirement to get it fully evolved on this class that in a normal new game you'll be gimping yourself pre-horizon. For a soldier to have maxed cryo ammo, ARush and passive, it takes 36 points. By that time, you're level 18 or something, which is basically 2/3rds of the game, and everything before horizon you'll be relying on level 2 disruptor and incendiary ammos. I think for anyone starting new will not see the point of doing that when you can already get inferno much sooner.

I think this is why a lot of people don't understand cryo and CC powers in general, because in a traditional RPG game, you focus on out-damaging your enemy in the fastest way possible, but in practice on ME2 insanity, you can rarely out-gun them because of the sheer fact that you will always be outnumbered. And because cryo ammo and cryo blast needs to be unlocked, most people don't use them enough to see their benefits in comparison with the powers before them. That's the reason why I play NG+ a lot... you get all your powers fully evolved, all your weapons are there, and you don't need to worry about waiting for the next level or wasting points. So you can try whatever builds you like from the start.