Aller au contenu

Photo

On Flemeth, Dragons and Old Gods: Connexion?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
129 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Berkilak

Berkilak
  • Members
  • 1 561 messages
  •  Dragons - The titular creatures of this world are perplexing. Clearly, they are flesh-and-blood creatures. We see their hatcheries, we see their stages of life, their sexual dimorphism. They are organic, living and dying animals. Yet, perhaps given their power, they are equated with the divine. As will be discussed, they are the forms the Tevinters worshipped when they praised the Old Gods. They are the form that the inhabitants of Haven attributed to their risen Andraste. It struck me that the Warden and his/her party reacted incredulously at this, even when they were worshipped as gods by the Imperium - clearly dragons were throught of as a purely biological organisms by the population at large.
  • Old Gods - We know very little about this group. They are regarded as false gods by the Chantry. They were active in the time of the Imperium. After that, they assumed a dormant state for an unknown reason (perhaps related to the fall of the Tevinter Magisters). We know that they are connected to the darkspawn in some way, and that the darkspawn were drawn to them. And we know that they appear as dragons in both their corrupted and uncorrupted states. But are they dragons, proper? Or simply a form they choose? I find the latter option more likely. Firstly, we know that the aforementioned dragons are biological. Fauna. Exotic fauna, but fauna nonetheless. A supernatural, immortal being would have no need for a breeding cycle - especially one that can continue without the involvement of the supernatural being. Secondly, we encounter the ghost of a dragon in the Blackmarsh, and since there is no reference by any of the participants that this was an Old God, I think we can assume that, like everything but dwarves, dragons have spirits of their own that connect them to the Fade - and are not that of an Old God's. Thirdly, Riordan tells us that if an Old God is slain by a non-Grey Warden, their soul simply flies into the nearest darkspawn and reassumes it's dragon-shape. It transforms.
  • Flemeth - Some people may know where I am going with this at this point - I would like to postulate that Flemeth is an Old God that never entered the state of dormancy that the other ones did. Like the Archdemon, she has the ability to transfer her soul into another's body should her own body fail her (in the Archdemon's case, due to injury, in Flemeth's, due to age [this may also explain her altered appearance in DA2]). Like the Old Gods, she has a preference for assuming the form of the powerful dragon. And perhaps most tellingly: she is attempting to liberate the soul of an Old God from the corruption of the Darkspawn.
So what does this mean for DA2? I'm not sure. I think, however, that this looming conflict that Cassandra is interested in will be directly centered around Flemeth. I'm sure that we'll see her machinations in that events leading to this conflict during Hawke's rise to fame. But I think the real payoff will come with DA3.

What follows is pure speculation, but I think we're going to see a huge conflict between the forces of Flemeth and the forces of (out of left field here) The Architect. I didn't touch on him before, but I believe him to be one of the first Tevinter Magisters cursed with the darkspawn taint. Whether or not he is aware (although I suspect he would be) and whether or not he is currently occupying his first body (soul transferrence seems to be a theme in Dragon Age, and would explain a difference in story if you killed him) is up for debate. But his tact, his scientific and alchemical experiments... it all seems too civilized, even for a "free" darkspawn. I sense pre-existing knowledge here. Perhaps he blames the Old Gods for his current condition. We know that he is seeking the Old Gods in order to kill them rather than to corrupt him so that he might "free" his people. Perhaps that would end the curse?

On the other side of the spectrum, we have Flemeth. Who I believe to be an Old God, and who, at the very least, is trying to save them from the darkspawn. A confrontation seems unavoidable.

So what do you guys think? I touched on quite a few topics here. Is the Architect a Tevinter Magister? Flemeth an Old God? Are dragons purely biological or something more? Your guess is as good as mine, but there's a few talking points. 

Modifié par Berkilak, 20 février 2011 - 07:37 .


#2
kjdhgfiliuhwe

kjdhgfiliuhwe
  • Members
  • 1 106 messages

Berkilak wrote...

  •  Dragons - We see their hatcheries, we see their stages of life, their sexual dimorphism

I actually don't recall ever seeing a dragon penis. 

#3
Berkilak

Berkilak
  • Members
  • 1 561 messages

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Berkilak wrote...

  •  Dragons - We see their hatcheries, we see their stages of life, their sexual dimorphism

I actually don't recall ever seeing a dragon penis. 

While that is the most extreme example of sexual dimorphism, that is merely the most obvious in biology. There are other aspects to it - size, colour, even development of different structures. We see developed females as extremely large, purple, with fully-developed wings. We see males as smaller (perhaps three times the size of a man at most), yellow-greenish in colour and with atrophied, vestigial wings.

Modifié par Berkilak, 20 février 2011 - 07:34 .


#4
Berkilak

Berkilak
  • Members
  • 1 561 messages
Double post.

Modifié par Berkilak, 20 février 2011 - 07:34 .


#5
pomrink

pomrink
  • Members
  • 1 350 messages
I find this topic very interesting, yet I don't have much to add. I always assumed Flemeth was much, much older than the age that was given, and I find your theories very believable.

#6
Blacklash93

Blacklash93
  • Members
  • 4 154 messages
Considering that dragons' blood carries properties very similar to blood magic and basically teaches it to cultists, I'd say that they have some sort of connection to the Old Gods, whose power is centered around that art.

And I believe the Old Gods are just very powerful and wise dragons with some sort of Fade origin capable of magic. There would be no reason for some sort of spiritual entity to assume the form a creature that already exists. Spirits also prefer fighting in their true forms, so that's something to consider.

As for Flemeth, she may be something like an Old God, but she isn't one of the seven. There's clearly something more to her dragon form. Really, everything about her is up in the air since we know she's not an abomination now.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 février 2011 - 07:41 .


#7
Sharn

Sharn
  • Members
  • 193 messages
Flemeth isn't immortal is she? Once you kill her she goes into spirit form and looks for a new host, but what if you kill her spirit form before she is able to find a new host?

#8
kjdhgfiliuhwe

kjdhgfiliuhwe
  • Members
  • 1 106 messages
Maybe Flemeth is the Maker.

#9
wulfsturm

wulfsturm
  • Members
  • 2 901 messages

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...
I actually don't recall ever seeing a dragon penis. 


You would know, since you where looking for it. :o :P

#10
Sharn

Sharn
  • Members
  • 193 messages

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Berkilak wrote...


  •  Dragons - We see their hatcheries, we see their stages of life, their sexual dimorphism

I actually don't recall ever seeing a dragon penis. 


Well, how are you going to get it to show it to you? Get its approval points to 100 and ask the dragon to join you in your tent?

#11
kjdhgfiliuhwe

kjdhgfiliuhwe
  • Members
  • 1 106 messages

wulfsturm wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...
I actually don't recall ever seeing a dragon penis. 


You would know, since you where looking for it. :o :P


Having seen a whale penis in person, I can assure you that one of the last things I'd go looking for is a Dragon's. :lol:

Edit: And stop derailing this thread! :P I stand by my contention that Flemeth is really the Maker passing time and enjoying herself. It would certainly make her relationship with the Chantry amusing.

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 20 février 2011 - 07:44 .


#12
mesmerizedish

mesmerizedish
  • Members
  • 7 776 messages
Flemeth is hawt.

#13
wulfsturm

wulfsturm
  • Members
  • 2 901 messages

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Flemeth is hawt.


She is, I would totally buy a romance DLC for her. Rawr.

She could "captain" my "Voyager" any day.

Modifié par wulfsturm, 20 février 2011 - 07:43 .


#14
mesmerizedish

mesmerizedish
  • Members
  • 7 776 messages

wulfsturm wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Flemeth is hawt.


She is, I would totally buy a romance DLC for her. Rawr.

She could "captain" my "Voyager" any day.


:o:lol:

#15
Count Viceroy

Count Viceroy
  • Members
  • 4 095 messages

wulfsturm wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Flemeth is hawt.


She is, I would totally buy a romance DLC for her. Rawr.

She could "captain" my "Voyager" any day.


Even if you can't stand her face, you could jut ask her to change into another! So no paperbag would be neccessary.

Of course, she might also turn into a dragon and eat you.

Though, the vore people would just love that... :lol:

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 février 2011 - 07:46 .


#16
mesmerizedish

mesmerizedish
  • Members
  • 7 776 messages

Count Viceroy wrote...

Even if you can't stand her face, you could jut ask her to change into another! So no paperbag would be neccessary.

Of course, she might also turn into a dragon and eat you.

Though, the vore people would just love that... :lol:


I don't know what vore people are, but Flemeth can eat me any day of the week.

#17
Berkilak

Berkilak
  • Members
  • 1 561 messages

Blacklash93 wrote...

Considering that dragons' blood carries properties very similar to blood magic and basically teaches it to cultists, I'd say that they have some sort of connection to the Old Gods, who's power is centered around that art.

And I believe the Old Gods are just very powerful and wise dragons capable of magic. There would be no reason for some sort of spiritual entity to assume the form a creature that already exists. Spirits also prefer fighting in their true forms, so that's something to consider.

As for Flemeth, she may be something like an Old God, but she isn't one of the seven. There's clearly something more to her dragon form. Really, everything about her is up in the air since we know she's not an abomination now.


Consider these a counter:

1. The parts of various animals and plants, not only dragons, are used for various rituals, poultices and spells. I should have put an qualifier on my statement and added that they are as biological as a magical world allows. I would put forth that dragon's blood is merely some of the highest quality stuff available.

2. Although we don't see it in-game, I refer to Riordan's information that, if not killed in the presense of a Grey Warden, an Archdemon's soul would fly into another darkspawn and transform it into a dragon. Granted, he could be incorrect, but given the lengths the Wardens go to and the longevity of their order... they probably have their facts straight. And I just don't see soul transferrence/transformation as an ability of a dragon, however old or powerful.

3. We can't be sure that we know all of the Old Gods. Time has passed since they were active, and their true nature was never completely known. And who knows? Two still lay dormant. Perhaps it is actually one, and Flemeth desires to save the remaining slumberer from the Architect.

Perhaps I'm stretching, but I'm just trying to get a little debate going. :wizard:

#18
Count Viceroy

Count Viceroy
  • Members
  • 4 095 messages

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I don't know what vore people are, but Flemeth can eat me any day of the week.


That is exactly what it is, my dear :lol:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Vorarephilia

Vorarephilia (often shortened to vore) is a sexual fetish and paraphilia where arousal occurs from the idea of being eaten or by the process of eating.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 février 2011 - 07:50 .


#19
Kimarous

Kimarous
  • Members
  • 1 513 messages
I used to think that Flemeth used to be the Archon of Ostagar prior to possessing the Flemeth of legend, but that seems to be jossed on account of Morrigan's little dialogue in Witch Hunt. I have no idea what she is now. Until details might be elaborated on in DA2, she is simply "Flemeth" to me.

Not too sure about the Old Gods, but I am certain that they are a special breed of dragon. They are apparently male, yet they look very similar to High Dragons, which are exclusively female with the ordinary kind. Maybe they used to be the unique, master patriarch of dragonkind? If so, why were they buried in the first place, "the Maker did it" not withstanding?

#20
mesmerizedish

mesmerizedish
  • Members
  • 7 776 messages

Count Viceroy wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I don't know what vore people are, but Flemeth can eat me any day of the week.


That is exactly what it is, my dear :lol:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Vorarephilia

Vorarephilia (often shortened to vore) is a sexual fetish and paraphilia where arousal occurs from the idea of being eaten or by the process of eating.


Ah... mmm... yeah... so, that's not... eh, nevermind :whistle:

#21
Count Viceroy

Count Viceroy
  • Members
  • 4 095 messages

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Ah... mmm... yeah... so, that's not... eh, nevermind :whistle:


I actually got what you meant. But it went both ways. I just couldn't resist.

See I can do euphemisms too. :P

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 février 2011 - 07:53 .


#22
pomrink

pomrink
  • Members
  • 1 350 messages
I dislike how this topic has degraded into sexual innuendo about a fictional character.

#23
Berkilak

Berkilak
  • Members
  • 1 561 messages
I'm sure that the Old Gods are ancient dragons. Until my most recent playthrough in preparate for DA2, I felt the same. But after listening to Riordan again, I just see too much of a supernatural connexion to dismiss as the fanciful tale of an ancient order. Dragons are biological - the Archdemons, and by association, the Old Gods, are supernatural. Soul transferrence and transformation, at the very least.

#24
Blacklash93

Blacklash93
  • Members
  • 4 154 messages

Berkilak wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Considering that dragons' blood carries properties very similar to blood magic and basically teaches it to cultists, I'd say that they have some sort of connection to the Old Gods, who's power is centered around that art.

And I believe the Old Gods are just very powerful and wise dragons capable of magic. There would be no reason for some sort of spiritual entity to assume the form a creature that already exists. Spirits also prefer fighting in their true forms, so that's something to consider.

As for Flemeth, she may be something like an Old God, but she isn't one of the seven. There's clearly something more to her dragon form. Really, everything about her is up in the air since we know she's not an abomination now.


Consider these a counter:

1. The parts of various animals and plants, not only dragons, are used for various rituals, poultices and spells. I should have put an qualifier on my statement and added that they are as biological as a magical world allows. I would put forth that dragon's blood is merely some of the highest quality stuff available.

2. Although we don't see it in-game, I refer to Riordan's information that, if not killed in the presense of a Grey Warden, an Archdemon's soul would fly into another darkspawn and transform it into a dragon. Granted, he could be incorrect, but given the lengths the Wardens go to and the longevity of their order... they probably have their facts straight. And I just don't see soul transferrence/transformation as an ability of a dragon, however old or powerful.

3. We can't be sure that we know all of the Old Gods. Time has passed since they were active, and their true nature was never completely known. And who knows? Two still lay dormant. Perhaps it is actually one, and Flemeth desires to save the remaining slumberer from the Architect.

Perhaps I'm stretching, but I'm just trying to get a little debate going. :wizard:

Ingesting dragons' raw blood taught the cultists how to harness the power of their blood. It may hold the memory of thousands of generations in it as hinted when the Warden drinks it. There's more to dragon blood than being simple ingredients.

I never said the soul transfer was a normal dragon ability.

And the Architect wants to keep the Darkspawn away from the Old Gods. He would be an asset to her, if anything.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 février 2011 - 08:02 .


#25
Uhh.. Jonah

Uhh.. Jonah
  • Members
  • 1 661 messages
Wow, great theory :)