129 réponses à ce sujet

[Kidd]

I think it's more likely Flemeth has an Old God or something related to the Old Gods inside her. She has lots of stories from the time she was but a human, and they all end with her becoming "something more" by merging with something otherworldly. We'd take it for granted it's a spirit/demon, but it might actually be an Old God.



If Flemeth has ties to the Old Gods that'd explain her hesitance to help the Warden out as well. Old God + Darkspawn taint? Not good idea for self-preservation =D

[Blacklash93]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I think it's more likely Flemeth has an Old God or something related to the Old Gods inside her. She has lots of stories from the time she was but a human, and they all end with her becoming "something more" by merging with something otherworldly. We'd take it for granted it's a spirit/demon, but it might actually be an Old God.

Those are just legends. I wouldn't be surprised if she was never human.

[Berkilak]

Blacklash93 wrote...
Ingesting dragons' raw blood taught the cultists how to harness the power of their blood. It holds the memory of thousands of generations in it as proven when the Warden drinks it. There's more to dragon blood than being simple ingredients.

I never said the soul transfer was a normal dragon ability.

And the Architect wants to keep the Darkspawn away from the Old Gods. He would be an asset to her, if anything.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the first point. While I loved becoming a Reaver, I didn't think of it as being more magical than any other ritual in the Dragon Age universe. There is an inherent magic in the natural world. It seems logical to me that a dragon would be attributed a large amount of this inherent magic. When I stated that ingredients are used in various ways, I meant not that they were ordinary - a health potion is not like making yourself some chicken soup. But that there was magic inherent in the ingredients, and that dragon's blood is bound to be potent.

So what differentiates an Old God from a fully-mature dragon?

He wants to make sure that no darkspawn are driven to the Old Gods by killing them before they can become corrupted Archdemons. Until the Old Gods are no more will the darkspawn be free.

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Blacklash93 wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I think it's more likely Flemeth has an Old God or something related to the Old Gods inside her. She has lots of stories from the time she was but a human, and they all end with her becoming "something more" by merging with something otherworldly. We'd take it for granted it's a spirit/demon, but it might actually be an Old God.

Those are just legends. I wouldn't be surprised if she was never human.

Exactly. I don't think she was ever human either. But, just think of the rich storylines that could be developed if Flemeth turns out to be the Maker. I just think the whole Old God thing everyone brings up concerning Flemeth is too obvious. 

[Berkilak]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I think it's more likely Flemeth has an Old God or something related to the Old Gods inside her. She has lots of stories from the time she was but a human, and they all end with her becoming "something more" by merging with something otherworldly. We'd take it for granted it's a spirit/demon, but it might actually be an Old God.

Those are just legends. I wouldn't be surprised if she was never human.

Exactly. I don't think she was ever human either. But, just think of the rich storylines that could be developed if Flemeth turns out to be the Maker. I just think the whole Old God thing everyone brings up concerning Flemeth is too obvious. 

Justice tells us, however, that spirits and demons are unsure of the existence of the Maker. Given that they live in His purported plane and base of operations, I would think that they would definitively know. The Fade was His first creation. That being said, what we know of the Maker's history is told to us by the Chantry and not necessarily accurate, but they were pretty spot on about the Fade.

[The Big Nothing]

Oh, my. What if... Flemeth is Andraste?

[Blacklash93]

Berkilak wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...
Ingesting dragons' raw blood taught the cultists how to harness the power of their blood. It holds the memory of thousands of generations in it as proven when the Warden drinks it. There's more to dragon blood than being simple ingredients.

I never said the soul transfer was a normal dragon ability.

And the Architect wants to keep the Darkspawn away from the Old Gods. He would be an asset to her, if anything.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the first point. While I loved becoming a Reaver, I didn't think of it as being more magical than any other ritual in the Dragon Age universe. There is an inherent magic in the natural world. It seems logical to me that a dragon would be attributed a large amount of this inherent magic. When I stated that ingredients are used in various ways, I meant not that they were ordinary - a health potion is not like making yourself some chicken soup. But that there was magic inherent in the ingredients, and that dragon's blood is bound to be potent.

So what differentiates an Old God from a fully-mature dragon?

He wants to make sure that no darkspawn are driven to the Old Gods by killing them before they can become corrupted Archdemons. Until the Old Gods are no more will the darkspawn be free.

Ingesting dragon blood raw teaches you how to harness your own blood for power. It's not a complex ritual. You just drink the blood with no magic involved. That's what makes it peculiar.

Magic and a strong Fade connection is what seperates them. The reason the Old Gods are sentient. Perhaps the
Old Gods were the original dragons? Gaider described the connection between regular dragons and the Old Gods as circles moving outward, with the Old Gods in the center.

You said that Flemeth was trying to save the remaining Old God(s) from the Architect. I was simply pointing out that she has nothing to fear from him other than another failed Old God experiment, which I doubt he would try again given what happened to Urthemiel. The Architect was also dead-set on killing the Old Gods in the books, but he changed his mind when he actually found one. Why? I suspect it was because he couldn't kill it untainted or avoid corrupting it.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 février 2011 - 08:20 .

[Berkilak]

Blacklash93 wrote...
Ingesting dragon blood raw teaches you how to harness your own blood for power. It's not a complex ritual. You just drink the blood with no magic involved. That's what makes it peculiar.

Magic and a strong Fade connection is what seperates them. The reason the Old Gods are sentient.

You said that Flemeth was trying to save the remaining Old God(s) from the Architect. I was simply pointing out that she has nothing to fear from him other than another failed Old God experiment, which I doubt he would try again given what happened to Urthemiel. The Architect was also dead-set on killing the Old Gods in the books, but he changed his mind when he actually found one. Why? I suspect it was because he couldn't kill it.

Yep, agree to disagree on the first point. I'm being a little obtuse in my explanations. 

So they are essentially dragon-mages? Interesting hypothesis.

And I've not read the books so, again, interesting information. Given ten years, however, and his single-minded focus to disconnect the darkspawn from the Old Gods permanently, it seems to me that this is not a goal that he'll be giving up on. 

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Berkilak wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

I think it's more likely Flemeth has an Old God or something related to the Old Gods inside her. She has lots of stories from the time she was but a human, and they all end with her becoming "something more" by merging with something otherworldly. We'd take it for granted it's a spirit/demon, but it might actually be an Old God.

Those are just legends. I wouldn't be surprised if she was never human.

Exactly. I don't think she was ever human either. But, just think of the rich storylines that could be developed if Flemeth turns out to be the Maker. I just think the whole Old God thing everyone brings up concerning Flemeth is too obvious. 

Justice tells us, however, that spirits and demons are unsure of the existence of the Maker. Given that they live in His purported plane and base of operations, I would think that they would definitively know. The Fade was His first creation. That being said, what we know of the Maker's history is told to us by the Chantry and not necessarily accurate, but they were pretty spot on about the Fade.

Well, call me a cynic, but I believe the Chantry has an extremely embellished view of the Maker to the point where I'd be very surprised if any of it was remotely accurate, especially the gender. I still laugh when I recall Alistair's comments about Andraste when you enter the Lothering Chantry. The Fade is hard to get wrong, what with people to this day still being able to access it.

And, if Flemeth is the Maker playing out the hermit stage of His life, what the Spirits and Demons claim really has no bearing. 

Obviously we have no idea, which is why we're all speculating, but I just think it'd be a lot more interesting if Flemeth turns out to be the Maker, as it would have far more repercusions than if she was an Old God. Then again, who can say the Maker isn't simply an Old God anyways? Hrm. Not that the amount of repercussions is a good argument for anything, but in lieu of knowing the answer, I'll stick with the one that could potentially deliver the most drama. 

Modifié par kjdhgfiliuhwe, 20 février 2011 - 08:22 .

[Vhaius]

That was an interesting read, I just find your spelling of 'connection' hilarious, for some reason.

[mesmerizedish]

Vhaius wrote...

That was an interesting read, I just find your spelling of 'connection' hilarious, for some reason.

You must be American.

[Blacklash93]

Berkilak wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...
Ingesting dragon blood raw teaches you how to harness your own blood for power. It's not a complex ritual. You just drink the blood with no magic involved. That's what makes it peculiar.

Magic and a strong Fade connection is what seperates them. The reason the Old Gods are sentient.

You said that Flemeth was trying to save the remaining Old God(s) from the Architect. I was simply pointing out that she has nothing to fear from him other than another failed Old God experiment, which I doubt he would try again given what happened to Urthemiel. The Architect was also dead-set on killing the Old Gods in the books, but he changed his mind when he actually found one. Why? I suspect it was because he couldn't kill it.

Yep, agree to disagree on the first point. I'm being a little obtuse in my explanations. 

So they are essentially dragon-mages? Interesting hypothesis.

And I've not read the books so, again, interesting information. Given ten years, however, and his single-minded focus to disconnect the darkspawn from the Old Gods permanently, it seems to me that this is not a goal that he'll be giving up on. 

Until Gaider confirms that drinking raw chicken blood in DA can give you anything besides mild sickness, I'm going to assume that raw dragon blood is something special.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 février 2011 - 08:34 .

[Berkilak]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...
Well, call me a cynic, but I believe the Chantry has an extremely embellished view of the Maker to the point where I'd be very surprised if any of it was remotely accurate, especially the gender. I still laugh when I recall Alistair's comments about Andraste when you enter the Lothering Chantry. The Fade is hard to get wrong, what with people to this day still being able to access it.

And, if Flemeth is the Maker playing out the hermit stage of His life, what the Spirits and Demons claim really has no bearing. 

Obviously we have no idea, which is why we're all speculating, but I just think it'd be a lot more interesting if Flemeth turns out to be the Maker, as it would have far more repercusions than if she was an Old God. Then again, who can say the Maker isn't simply an Old God anyways? Hrm. Not that the amount of repercussions is a good argument for anything, but in lieu of knowing the answer, I'll stick with the one that could potentially deliver the most drama. 

I got off of the God-as-observing-mortal train when I read that J.R.R. Tolkien stated that Tom Bombadil was not Eru (the creation god of the Tolkien universe). That being said, a writer for BioWare could have been equally flustered by that revelation and decided to work in their own oddly-humoured hermit wizard into Dragon Age.  While I'll admit that your theory is definitely possible, I haven't seen any hints towards this outcome. And I think the uncertainty regarding the Maker's existence gives the Dragon Age universe a bit of an edge over those where it's always so clear-cut.

Modifié par Berkilak, 20 février 2011 - 08:33 .

[Braag]

I actually thought about that as well after finishing Witch Hunt. It's a good theory.

[Berkilak]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Vhaius wrote...

That was an interesting read, I just find your spelling of 'connection' hilarious, for some reason.

You must be American.

Actually, I meant to use "connection." It's proper as far as Canadian grammar goes. But as an history student, I picked up the spelling and grammar of the material. As a teacher, now, it's a habit I'm trying to break (but one my professors didn't care about, or more likely, notice)

Modifié par Berkilak, 20 février 2011 - 08:53 .

[Hoogies123]

Has anyone considered the other 4 mage's who corrupted the golden city and where they might be now?

[AllThatJazz]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Maybe Flemeth is the Maker.

I'm not even going to attempt to spell your name , but I love this idea. After all, people keep complaining that the Maker is very hands-off and incommunicative, maybe that's because He/She/It was forced to leave the Golden City when the taint became too widespread. Maybe 'Flemeth' was just a legend, or maybe the Maker did inhabit the body of a young Chasind woman. In human form, she still has more than enough power and intelligence to manipulate events in her favour, and she's doing so with the ultimate aim of getting back home.

The best thing about Flemeth is her ambiguity - it leads to sooooo much wonderful speculation.  Aside from her hawtness, of course. 

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

AllThatJazz wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Maybe Flemeth is the Maker.

I'm not even going to attempt to spell your name , 

Yea, sorry. When I realized I had to make a username and password to play Dragon Age as I was installing it, I was a little "annoyed" and input a bunch of gibberish. :/ Oh well. I've become quite partial to it though. 

[AllThatJazz]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

Maybe Flemeth is the Maker.

I'm not even going to attempt to spell your name , 

Yea, sorry. When I realized I had to make a username and password to play Dragon Age as I was installing it, I was a little "annoyed" and input a bunch of gibberish. :/ Oh well. I've become quite partial to it though. 

Hey, it's as good as any. If I have to refer to your name, I'll just call you Gibberish  I only got mine cos 'Chicago' happened to be on in the background as I was trying to think of something. Hmph. Don't even like the film <_<


@Hoogies - thought Berkilak's suggestion that the Architect could be one of them is interesting. Maybe somewhere there are similarly self-aware Darkspawn, or maybe they exist in the Fade as super-powerful abominations. Hell, maybe Flemeth is one of the original mages, and now she's trying to put things right, or possibly make things even more wrong. 

[Hoogies123]

I was just replaying DA:O and for the first time I chose a new line when conversing with Flemeth after the joining and tower incident. She says something along the lines of "For vengeance, take to the shadows and strike from there, at least thats what my mother taught me."



So Flemeth is saying that she has/had a mother. Interesting.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Berkilak wrote...

• Flemeth - Some people may know where I am going with this at this point - I would like to postulate that Flemeth is an Old God that never entered the state of dormancy that the other ones did. Like the Archdemon, she has the ability to transfer her soul into another's body should her own body fail her (in the Archdemon's case, due to injury, in Flemeth's, due to age [this may also explain her altered appearance in DA2]). Like the Old Gods, she has a preference for assuming the form of the powerful dragon. And perhaps most tellingly: she is attempting to liberate the soul of an Old God from the corruption of the Darkspawn.. 

You forget something.
Riordan: The archdemon may be slain as any other darkspawn, but should any other than a Grey Warden do the slaying, it will not be enough.
Warden: And... what happens to the Grey Warden?
Riordan: A darkspawn is an empty, soulless vessel, but a Grey Warden is not. The essence of the archdemon is destroyed... and so is the Grey Warden.

The Warden still live after killing Flemeth.

Flemeth may has something to do with the Old Gods. But I doubt she's the old gods that the Tervinter Imperium were worshipping. The Tervinter Imperium records are mostly destroyed and those that survived are written in ancient text very few can translate properly. The Chantry studies this ancient texts but poorly interpret them. Over time this interpretations become more like legend than actual history as they're passed down from one generation to another. The Dalish do not have the luxury to keep and maintain library as with the Chantry. So they rely more on verbal accounts which mostly been exaggerated. Thus it's difficult to account accurate facts regarding the Old Gods. What we know and study from the lore may has some truth at some points but not entirely accurate.

IMO, The first Old God that claimed to be slain may still live today ( in human form ) meddling with Thedas affair. If I am the Maker, I will make sure this Old Gods to be immortals. Their duty is to corrupt as many men and women until the "Judgement Day" at Black City. I will also grant this old gods the power to disguise, mislead and anything deem suitable to corrupt the faith of even the most faithful Andraste's follower. Lastly, they shall have access to demonology (pride demon/desire demon) to help them with whatever plot they have without getting themselves involve directly. But this is just my view of what the Old Gods should be.

[Berkilak]

Since Flemeth is not corrupted by the taint, her spirit would have no reason to be drawn to a Grey Warden.

[pomrink]

In the DA:O world, I flat out don't believe in the maker. I've always though of the Old Gods as lovecraftian entities, and I've always thought when infected with the darkspawn taint and "killed", they don't really die.

[Elessie]

Or... Flemeth is the result of a previous dark ritual that got covered up with the corpse of a Gray Warden that died during the battle. And that's how she could provide Morrigan with the ritual.

[Noviere]

Elessie wrote...

Or... Flemeth is the result of a previous dark ritual that got covered up with the corpse of a Gray Warden that died during the battle. And that's how she could provide Morrigan with the ritual.

That's the theory I've been using since Witch Hunt -- that Flemeth is an Old God Baby... for lack of an actual term.

Modifié par Noviere, 20 février 2011 - 10:32 .