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[Riknas]

Like the OP, let's go through a list of some facts, yes? No matter how we play a game, we know there is a power to blood. If you read anything, please scroll to the piece that says FLEMETH CONCLUSION. Note however that the conclusions are speculations based on the numbered statements (which ARE actual facts).

Blood

1. Wardens tap into the power of Darkspawn blood (The Joining)
2. Darkspawn can tap into Warden blood (Disciples).
3. The Arch Demon has special blood (It 'purifies' regular Darkspawn blood to create Grey Wardens. Remember the distinct difference between the Wardens and the husk-like individuals that consume raw darkspawn blood ((Ruck, anyone?))
4. Reavers tap into the blood of dragons.
5. Blood Magic is a special and revered/demonic art that originates from the Demons of the Fade. The Tevinter Imperium previously saw it as an alternative fuel for traditional spells.
6. Blood Magic itself is foreign to the Darkspawn (Avernus, who has extended his lifespan for at least several decades using it.)
7. Blood Magic can interact with the Darkspawn Blood to stunning effects (Avernus' experiments)

Both The Architect and Flemeth are the special mysteries of the universe that are the true bases for speculation. Let's start with the obvious bit.

Flemeth

A reminder, to all the lore currently provided to us, she is NOT actually related to the Old Gods. (This of course may be a lie to our sources: legends, Morrigan, Codex.

1. She is a shapeshifter of great power, allowing her to transform into that of a High Dragon.
2. She is centuries old, her Origins story as spoken through the "Legends" and Morrigan, was that she was a mage of great power already; She took in the power of a Pride Demon (or something much greater) and became an abomination.
3. The "Dark Ritual" she teaches Morrigan is rooted in Blood Magic, that does NOT require being an abomination.
4.  Flemeth uses special blood magic to transfer her mind/soul into that of other bodies.
5. She wanted the child with the soul of an Old God for...unknown reasons.

Note: To our knowledge, as Blood Magic originates from the fade, and is alien to the Darkspawn, the Arch Demon does not actually use Blood Magic to transfer its own soul, but is part of the Dragon and Darkspawn bloods natural effects.

Flemeth Conclusion: Her stories are true, and she has used so many drastic experiments and magics she is hoping to harness and emulate the power of the Old Gods. She is NOT and Old God, but has the Dark Ritual with the intent of inhabiting and Controlling an Old God to become immortal and/or a supreme being.

The other bit is a bit more speculative with less facts, but lets go through it anyway.

The Architect

1. The Architect is a unique Darkspawn.
2. He has the powers of an emissary/mage.
3. He has a personal sense of kinship with the Darkspawn (implied in his speeches on the death of darkspawn, the desire to see them free, and his talks in the book, The Stolen Throne.)
4. He does not actually know why he is different (When the Warden asks why the Architect is the way he is, he says ((essentially) that he is unsure, and asks you to figure out why magic exists for that matter.)
5. He is starting to understand the power of blood, specifically applied to that of Darkspawn and Wardens (as a result, we get the Disciples).
6. He is aware of the Darkspawn Calling (created by the Archdemons) but is immune to it.
7. To his knowledge, there is no one like him.

Architect Conclusion: He is one of the first Tevinter Magisters, but is unaware of it, and is a sympathetic individual that wants to free his kind, out of a subconscious obligation from his "past life".

Miscellaneous Notes/References

1. The "Blue Runed" Darkspawn Emissary from Dragon Age Journeys.
2. Avernus' research is manifested in the form of a potion. We have no idea what its actual contents are.
3. We don't know if/how Darkspawn age.
4. Chantry-folk see the Dragon Worship as sacreligious, (likely seen as heretical considering the Old Gods)
5. The Dragon Cultists have a vague understanding on the power of blood (Kolgrim).

Modifié par Riknas, 20 février 2011 - 11:05 .

[Noviere]

Riknas wrote...

3. The "Dark Ritual" she teaches Morrigan is rooted in Blood Magic, that does NOT require being an abomination.

I don't know how, but I somehow forgot that Flemeth sent Morrigan with the Warden specifically for the DR.

There goes my theory.

[pomrink]

I actually doubt that the darkspawn came from tevinter magisters.

[cactusberry]

Maybe Flemeth is a second generation of an old god, an old god X a mortal. Haha, doubt it though.

[Morroian]

Riknas wrote...

2. She is centuries old, her Origins story as spoken through the "Legends" and Morrigan, was that she was a mage of great power already; She took in the power of a Pride Demon (or something much greater) and became an abomination.

I don't think she's an abomination as such and Morrigan says she isn't at the end of WH. My personal opinion is that a pride demon tried to possess her BUT instead of becoming an abomination her will won out and thus she is part demon but not an abominaiton. 

Modifié par Morroian, 21 février 2011 - 12:28 .

[AlexXIV]

Berkilak wrote...

•  Dragons - The titular creatures of this world are perplexing. Clearly, they are flesh-and-blood creatures. We see their hatcheries, we see their stages of life, their sexual dimorphism. They are organic, living and dying animals. Yet, perhaps given their power, they are equated with the divine. As will be discussed, they are the forms the Tevinters worshipped when they praised the Old Gods. They are the form that the inhabitants of Haven attributed to their risen Andraste. It struck me that the Warden and his/her party reacted incredulously at this, even when they were worshipped as gods by the Imperium - clearly dragons were throught of as a purely biological organisms by the population at large.
  
  
  
  
  
• Old Gods - We know very little about this group. They are regarded as false gods by the Chantry. They were active in the time of the Imperium. After that, they assumed a dormant state for an unknown reason (perhaps related to the fall of the Tevinter Magisters). We know that they are connected to the darkspawn in some way, and that the darkspawn were drawn to them. And we know that they appear as dragons in both their corrupted and uncorrupted states. But are they dragons, proper? Or simply a form they choose? I find the latter option more likely. Firstly, we know that the aforementioned dragons are biological. Fauna. Exotic fauna, but fauna nonetheless. A supernatural, immortal being would have no need for a breeding cycle - especially one that can continue without the involvement of the supernatural being. Secondly, we encounter the ghost of a dragon in the Blackmarsh, and since there is no reference by any of the participants that this was an Old God, I think we can assume that, like everything but dwarves, dragons have spirits of their own that connect them to the Fade - and are not that of an Old God's. Thirdly, Riordan tells us that if an Old God is slain by a non-Grey Warden, their soul simply flies into the nearest darkspawn and reassumes it's dragon-shape. It transforms.
  
  
  
  
  
• Flemeth - Some people may know where I am going with this at this point - I would like to postulate that Flemeth is an Old God that never entered the state of dormancy that the other ones did. Like the Archdemon, she has the ability to transfer her soul into another's body should her own body fail her (in the Archdemon's case, due to injury, in Flemeth's, due to age [this may also explain her altered appearance in DA2]). Like the Old Gods, she has a preference for assuming the form of the powerful dragon. And perhaps most tellingly: she is attempting to liberate the soul of an Old God from the corruption of the Darkspawn.

So what does this mean for DA2? I'm not sure. I think, however, that this looming conflict that Cassandra is interested in will be directly centered around Flemeth. I'm sure that we'll see her machinations in that events leading to this conflict during Hawke's rise to fame. But I think the real payoff will come with DA3.

What follows is pure speculation, but I think we're going to see a huge conflict between the forces of Flemeth and the forces of (out of left field here) The Architect. I didn't touch on him before, but I believe him to be one of the first Tevinter Magisters cursed with the darkspawn taint. Whether or not he is aware (although I suspect he would be) and whether or not he is currently occupying his first body (soul transferrence seems to be a theme in Dragon Age, and would explain a difference in story if you killed him) is up for debate. But his tact, his scientific and alchemical experiments... it all seems too civilized, even for a "free" darkspawn. I sense pre-existing knowledge here. Perhaps he blames the Old Gods for his current condition. We know that he is seeking the Old Gods in order to kill them rather than to corrupt him so that he might "free" his people. Perhaps that would end the curse?

On the other side of the spectrum, we have Flemeth. Who I believe to be an Old God, and who, at the very least, is trying to save them from the darkspawn. A confrontation seems unavoidable.

So what do you guys think? I touched on quite a few topics here. Is the Architect a Tevinter Magister? Flemeth an Old God? Are dragons purely biological or something more? Your guess is as good as mine, but there's a few talking points. 

Dragons are like humans, mortal but also divine. They have a soul. They can use magic. So let's assume a dragon could naturally become many centuries, if not millenia old. If this dragon knew bloodmagic he or she could extend this life span two, three, four times at least. So a dragon (Flemeth?) could be born before the TI and still live. In theory. How she manages to survive an encounter like with the Warden who slays her is not known. I would assume a sort of magic as well.

Shapechanging is a magic 'school', meaning that if dragon could assume the shape of a human and the fact that the Archdemons could change a darkspawn into an Archdemon we could put it under 'magic'. Archdemons may be possessed Dragons, or maybe the Old Gods were for all we know just very old and powerful. They were not active in the TI times though. According to the Chantry they were imprisoned (by the Maker) even at that time. Even though I don't believe everything the Chantry says, I don't see why they would lie about that, it doesn't affect the creditability of the Chantry.

The Architect's appearance suggests that you are right about that. He may have been a tevinter mage once. If he was one of those who went to the Fade and entered the Golden City then he probably has forgotten. He mentions that he was born as he was. Born without the ability to hear the song of the Archdemon. Which may be because he was 'born' of the original curse, aka was disfigured and lost his memory, or he may be born later as a sort of 'accident' for whatever reason. Maybe he was like Avernus who tried in his life time to study the darkspawn corruption and experimented on himself.

Anyway I think we can slay the Architect, so question would be if Bioware does their favorite ressurrection trick again. But honestly, the more often they do it the less creditable becomes their story.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 février 2011 - 12:08 .

[Noviere]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dragons are like humans, mortal but also divine. They have a soul. They can use magic.

Didn't David Gaider say they were just really smart animals? I think he even equated them to being about as smart as dolphins.

[AlexXIV]

Noviere wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dragons are like humans, mortal but also divine. They have a soul. They can use magic.

Didn't David Gaider say they were just really smart animals? I think he even equated them to being about as smart as dolphins.

Well aren't humans also just really smart animals? If he said dragons can never become as smart as a human or elf or dwarf or Qunari I'd have to change alot of my theories, but I don't know how that would make sense to be honest. I mean how would they speak to the Teninters and 'corrupt' them if they were mentally inferior.

Or it would just suggest my 'old gods are possessed dragons' theory. After all one demon possessed a cat in DA:O which turned out to be a rather smart cat.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 février 2011 - 12:15 .

[Noviere]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well aren't humans also just really smart animals? If he said dragons can never become as smart as a human or elf or dwarf or Qunari I'd have to change alot of my theories, but I don't know how that would make sense to be honest. I mean how would they speak to the Teninters and 'corrupt' them if they were mentally inferior.

Or it would just suggest my 'old gods are possessed dragons' theory. After all one demon possessed a cat in DA:O which turned out to be a rather smart cat.

Your 'old gods are possessed dragons'  theory makes more sense to me, personally. They likely chose dragons because they are the most powerful creatures in Thedas(that we know of anyway).

[XBenotto18]

these theory threads have been around since origins. The devs are aware of are predictions and would probably make the story far from our theories. I do notice the connections but I think bioware is better then that. They wouldn't leak anything out for us to know what flemeth is

[bosniak]

Flemeth is actually a transexiul Old god in disguise.

[Riloux]

I like the theory that Flemeth is an Old God, no matter how much people refute it.

"Considering what the world has done to me, I have already done more than it deserves."
"I'm just an old woman the world has long since forgotten."

This tells me she is an Old God that's pissed that people have stopped worshiping her and turned to the Maker.

Modifié par Riloux, 21 février 2011 - 12:37 .

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

Riloux wrote...

I like the theory that Flemeth is an Old God, no matter how much people refute it.

"Considering what the world has done to me, I have already done more than it deserves."
"I'm just an old woman the world has long since forgotten."

This tells me she is an Old God that's pissed that people have stopped worshiping her and turned to the Maker.

Or she's the Maker pissed the world thinks she's a man. 

[AlexXIV]

Riloux wrote...

I like the theory that Flemeth is an Old God, no matter how much people refute it.

"Considering what the world has done to me, I have already done more than it deserves."
"I'm just an old woman the world has long since forgotten."

This tells me she is an Old God that's pissed that people have stopped worshiping her and turned to the Maker.

Honestly, how are old gods the only ones the world has done something to? She could as well be a reborn Andraste or the (female) Maker, an elven god or just a witch that was hunted down for all of her life.

[JetsoverEverything]

whats up with everyone and flemeth all of a sudden?

[AlexXIV]

JetsoverEverything wrote...

whats up with everyone and flemeth all of a sudden?

It's not out of a sudden. Theories are around this forum since I joined. That's pretty much since the release of DA:O.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 février 2011 - 12:46 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

you're assuming the chantry is right about the origins of the darkspawn, which they obviously aren't.

[Noviere]

Riloux wrote...

I like the theory that Flemeth is an Old God, no matter how much people refute it.

"Considering what the world has done to me, I have already done more than it deserves."
"I'm just an old woman the world has long since forgotten."

This tells me she is an Old God that's pissed that people have stopped worshiping her and turned to the Maker.

This could easily be a reference to her life in general. She had a pretty rough time, if there is any truth in the Legend of Flemeth.

Modifié par Noviere, 21 février 2011 - 12:59 .

[Riknas]

Morroian wrote...

Riknas wrote...

2. She is centuries old, her Origins story as spoken through the "Legends" and Morrigan, was that she was a mage of great power already; She took in the power of a Pride Demon (or something much greater) and became an abomination.

I don't think she's an abomination as such and Morrigan says she isn't at the end of WH. My personal opinion is that a pride demon tried to possess her BUT instead of becoming an abomination her will won out and thus she is part demon but not an abominaiton. 

I'll give you that, I chose the word 'abomination' for the sake of simplicity, regardless, she's rooted in the work of demons and blood magic rather than that of Dragons. Whether or not she will succeed in emulating or connecting herself to one...is the real question.

[Eternally Faithful]

I actually had a sort-of theory about Flemeth being an Old God. There's only two left--Lusacan, the dragon of night, and Razikale, the dragon of mystery. Mystery seems to suit Flemeth, so I thought that she might really be Razikale. I noticed that in Flemeth's fight, after you defeat her, she doesn't change back to her human form, she stays a dragon. But if for some strange reason you have Morrigan take on the spider form, and she gets knocked out, she returns to her original form. So I wondered if the dragon was her true form.

This could also be one of the reason she saves you and sends Morrigan with you--because if the darkspawn find her, they'll corrupt her into an archdemon.

But that's just a theory. It's nice to know I'm not the only one whose thought of it.

Modifié par Eternally Faithful, 21 février 2011 - 02:41 .

[Eshaye]

Riknas wrote...


3. The "Dark Ritual" she teaches Morrigan is rooted in Blood Magic, that does NOT require being an abomination.
4.  Flemeth uses special blood magic to transfer her mind/soul into that of other bodies.
5. She wanted the child with the soul of an Old God for...unknown reasons.

Have you played Witch Hunt? Because what Morrigan says there refutes what we knew of Flemeth in the base game. She also gives us hints on why Flemeth wanted the birth of child with the soul of an Old God. Morrigan will also play a key role in DA3. 

I think it's possible Flemeth could be an Old God herself, or something else entirely. But the OP's theory does hold water, I really don't think she's simply an 'abomination', I think it's possible she's called on a powerful demon once or twice but I don't think that's the source of her power or of what she is. I also don't think she ever was human, but only appeared as human whenever she needed to manipulate humans for her own design. 'Flemeth' isn't her name either. The Flemeth of legend could simply be one of her incarnations and the name stuck. 

 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Eternally Faithful wrote...

I actually had a sort-of theory about Flemeth being an Old God. There's only two left--Lusacan, the dragon of night, and Razikale, the dragon of mystery. Mystery seems to suit Flemeth, so I thought that she might really be Razikale. I noticed that in Flemeth's fight, after you defeat her, she doesn't change back to her human form, she stays a dragon. But if for some strange reason you have Morrigan take on the spider form, and she gets knocked out, she returns to her original form. So I wondered if the dragon was her true form.

This could also be one of the reason she saves you and sends Morrigan with you--because if the darkspawn find her, they'll corrupt her into an archdemon.

But that's just a theory. It's nice to know I'm not the only one whose thought of it.

All 7 Old Gods are male. 

[Haussier]

hmm.. I always thought Flemeth could be an old god.. or perhaps something older. Wasn't there an elven god that wasn't sealed away?



Any which way, I believe that she was human at one point and that she was possessed by a demon/old god/something else like Morrigan said. I don't think that there is even a remote chance of her being the maker (the maker was likely just a strong spirit if you ask me).

As to what she wants? only time will tell.



Ps. On a possibly related note. Who else thinks that the gate way that morrigan used was possibly the very same one that lead to the black city?

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Haussier wrote...

hmm.. I always thought Flemeth could be an old god.. or perhaps something older. Wasn't there an elven god that wasn't sealed away?

The 7 Old Gods were known and identified. Mostly from the Chantry's source. Whether is it true or not, we do not know. Blame it on Bioware for making vague lore which mostly based on legends and little regard to credible historical records and verifiable evidences. The Dalish may know something based on their knowledge with the portal and magic but then again their source are not entirely accurate due to lack of written records. At this point anything can be twisted as facts.

Haussier wrote...
Any which way, I believe that she was human at one point and that she was possessed by a demon/old god/something else like Morrigan said.

Posses by demon? Maybe. Both Morrigan and Leliana did mention about demon. Old Gods? No comment.

Haussier wrote...
I don't think that there is even a remote chance of her being the maker (the maker was likely just a strong spirit if you ask me).

The Maker? LOL..

She certainly make herself look very very very weak when the warden kill her..... or foolish enough to intervene directly with mortals affair. 

[AlexXIV]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Haussier wrote...

hmm.. I always thought Flemeth could be an old god.. or perhaps something older. Wasn't there an elven god that wasn't sealed away?

The 7 Old Gods were known and identified. Mostly from the Chantry's source. Whether is it true or not, we do not know. Blame it on Bioware for making vague lore which mostly based on legends and little regard to credible historical records and verifiable evidences. The Dalish may know something based on their knowledge with the portal and magic but then again their source are not entirely accurate due to lack of written records. At this point anything can be twisted as facts.

Haussier wrote...
Any which way, I believe that she was human at one point and that she was possessed by a demon/old god/something else like Morrigan said.

Posses by demon? Maybe. Both Morrigan and Leliana did mention about demon. Old Gods? No comment.

Haussier wrote...
I don't think that there is even a remote chance of her being the maker (the maker was likely just a strong spirit if you ask me).

The Maker? LOL..

She certainly make herself look very very very weak when the warden kill her..... or foolish enough to intervene directly with mortals affair. 

We don't know much about the Maker. The Chantry refers to the Maker as He and very powerful. But what if they are wrong? Obviously the only one who ever 'spoke' to the Maker was Andraste. I find it kind of curious that such a powerful god would speak to only one person and then for centuries remains quiet. I mean that only opens all doors for abuse.