114 réponses à ce sujet

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

The GPR, Collector AR, Mattock, and Revenant are soooo much better.

[termokanden]

Ares Caesar wrote...

Like I said though, a lot of the Mattock overpowered arguments are mostly from PC players who have a MASSIVE accuracy+RoF bonus over the consoles where the gun is a bit more "human" than "god-like"

It is still completely overpowered for soldiers.

[RGFrog]

Meh, I just mod in select fire for the mattock. Single, triple burst, and full auto. No other weapon needed

The Avenger on Freedom's Progress was fun, though. It's been so long since I used it the weapon became the best reason to get the Appearance Pack 2 DLC (caused me to start a new game after not having touched it for quite a while).

[JaegerBane]

RGFrog wrote...

Meh, I just mod in select fire for the mattock. Single, triple burst, and full auto. No other weapon needed
The Avenger on Freedom's Progress was fun, though. It's been so long since I used it the weapon became the best reason to get the Appearance Pack 2 DLC (caused me to start a new game after not having touched it for quite a while).

I experimented with modding the Vindicator so that it fired on full auto, but making it balanced was a lot harder than I thought.

[Firesteel]

I have been advocating for a buff to the full auto ARs (except for the Revy) or an accurate and high powered full auto AR as DLC, something with damage per shot between the locust and vindicator.

[JaegerBane]

Firesteel7 wrote...

I have been advocating for a buff to the full auto ARs (except for the Revy) or an accurate and high powered full auto AR as DLC, something with damage per shot between the locust and vindicator.

Maybe you should put together a petition and send it to Chris Priestly. I'd sign it

[implodinggoat]

Kronner wrote...

Those disadvantages should be credited to inferior hardware (console and its controller..no match for PC and mouse+keyboard), not the Mattock itself.
BioWare simply dropped the ball with Firepower pack.

RE: Mouse vs. Controller

I'm still a monster with the Mattock on my 360.  If I'm unloading with the thing using Adrenaline Rush I still nail headshots continually until about the 8th shot at which point the cumalitive recoil might cause me need to readjust slightly; but even if I don't compensate I'll still hit the torso.

Mouse and keyboard vs. control pad is really more an issue of taste.  The mouse and keyboard is more precise; but I find the movements too quick for my tastes and the tactile experience of pulling the controller's trigger as opposed to clicking my mouse is more satisfying in my opinion.  Unless you're dealing with a lot of menus or playing something like a strategty game I prefer a controller.


RE: The Firepower Pack

I like the Firepower pack a lot, although I recognize it adds some overpowered guns.

The Phalanx is the best addition of the three even though its the least powerful.  It gives players without a Sniper Rifle a viable sniping option; but an option which is still less effective than a true sniper rifle.  I'd love to see the same concept applied to a sawed of shotgun type side arm that would fit in the pistol slot and give players without shotties a viable pseudo shotty option; but an option which still pales in comparison to a true shotty.  A shotty type sidearm would be a particularly nice option for infiltrators who want to pull off the occasional close range stealth kill; but who don't want to commit to shotgun training.

The Mattock is overpowered; but I love the sound and feel of the gun.  If the Mattock's clip size was halved to 8 and it's ammo pickup per thermal clip was trimmed by 20-30% I think it would be perfect.  The 8 round clip would limit the unholy damage you can do during an Adrenaline Rush and would require you to have a full clip loaded in order to make the most of the gun's rapid fire.  An 8 round clip would also help balance the gun by making it more challenging to use againt numerous enemies and as a bonus an 8 round clip would also make the gun very similar to an M-1 Garrand.

The Geth Pulse Shotgun is also overpowered; but I like the addition of a more versatile shotty and I really like the addition of a charged shot alternate fire mode.   To fix the GPS, I'd simply make a charged shot use a full 4 round clip.   That would make the gun more ammo hungry and require you to have a full clip in order to fire the charged shot.   Having to use a full clip to fire a charged shot would make using the charged shot more of a high risk, high reward proposition since you'd need a full clip loaded to use the charged shot and once you fired it you'd have to reload again.

[Tony Gunslinger]

I think they should just fix the adrenaline rush bug and add kickback to the Mattock so that you can't land 16 headshots half a mile away. The gun deals like 50 damage per bullet which is almost the power of a sniper rifle and yet no recoil/kickback. it makes no sense that it's in the Incisor / Viper league with a much higher RoF and yet more accurate than those two when you shoot the Mattock like a madman.

[implodinggoat]

Firesteel7 wrote...

I have been advocating for a buff to the full auto ARs (except for the Revy) or an accurate and high powered full auto AR as DLC, something with damage per shot between the locust and vindicator.

RE: Buffing the Existing Guns

I made a request to Christina Norman to issue some DLC which upgrades the underpowered guns, particularly the Avenger.

She responded that they didn't intend to do so since many players like the guns as they are.  I tend to think that's just an excuse for not doing extra work on ME2 that won't generate them any extra cash during a time when they are working heavily on developing ME3.   I don't consider that motivation to be unreasonable myself; but the devs aren't going to say that because doing so would generate all sorts of criticism for them being greedy and/or lazy.

None the less, I think they realize that many players are dissatisfied by the unbalanced nature of the existing weapons and I'm fairly confident that said realization will lead them to somehow rebalance the guns in ME3.

RE:  Adding a New More Accurate Full Auto Assault Rifle

I don't think they want to do this because they don't want to add any guns which fill the same tactical role of existing guns which they'll probably just want to rebalance for ME3.   In the case of assault rifles they already have 3 fairly accurate full auto assault rifles (Avenger, Geth Pulse Rifle, Collector Rifle) so they'll probably want to save themselves some work by just rebalancing these guns for ME3 rather then releasing a new gun which fills the same role.

The only problem with the existing full auto assault rifles aside from the Revenant is that they're underpowered.  Despite being underpowered the guns all feel distinct and fill unique tactical roles.  The Avenger balances suppressive fire and accuraccy; but has some recoil.  The Geth Pulse Rifle trades off some of the Avenger's suppressive fire for greater accuraccy and the Collector RIfle focuses more as a run and gun weapon with low recoil.

As a result I wouldn't expect a new fully auto AR for ME2 since they'd have trouble adding one which didn't fill the same tactical role as the existing underpowered guns do.  Thus if they added a new one full auto AR then they'd have two near identicle guns in ME3.

My Suggestion

Balancing the guns for ME3 is a must; but aside from that I'd just like to see Bioware release an upgraded Avenger as free Ceberus Network DLC.   Ideally an Avenger that would fire just like the current weapon; but that would have a DPS output similar to a Tempest SMG.   That would save Bioware time since they could use the same weapon model twice and it would let the old Avenger fill the same role it currently does in ME2 as the gun you use to gimp yourself.

Releasing a DLC Avenger which merely alters the stats would be quick and easy; but I'm not sure if Bioware would do it simply because people would start whining about them being lazy for issuing a rebalanced duplicate of an existing gun, although if its free I don't see where you'd have any place to complain.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 22 février 2011 - 04:38 .

[implodinggoat]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

I think they should just fix the adrenaline rush bug and add kickback to the Mattock so that you can't land 16 headshots half a mile away. The gun deals like 50 damage per bullet which is almost the power of a sniper rifle and yet no recoil/kickback. it makes no sense that it's in the Incisor / Viper league with a much higher RoF and yet more accurate than those two when you shoot the Mattock like a madman.

I honestly don't think its ROF in Adrenaline Rush is a bug. 

The high ROF during adrenaline rush makes the gun unique in that it lets you unload an accurate and very devestating barrage rapidly.  If they patched that then it would remove the capability which makes the gun unique.

Like I said I think they should leave the Adrenaline Rush rapid fire as is and just half the clip size since that would balance the gun's power without removing the capability which makes it unique.

[Tony Gunslinger]

implodinggoat wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

I think they should just fix the adrenaline rush bug and add kickback to the Mattock so that you can't land 16 headshots half a mile away. The gun deals like 50 damage per bullet which is almost the power of a sniper rifle and yet no recoil/kickback. it makes no sense that it's in the Incisor / Viper league with a much higher RoF and yet more accurate than those two when you shoot the Mattock like a madman.

I honestly don't think its ROF in Adrenaline Rush is a bug. 

The high ROF during adrenaline rush makes the gun unique in that it lets you unload an accurate and very devestating barrage rapidly.  If they patched that then it would remove the capability which makes the gun unique.

Like I said I think they should leave the Adrenaline Rush rapid fire as is and just half the clip size since that would balance the gun's power without removing the capability which makes it unique.

Yeah I guess it would be a very simple and effective solution to balance the gun that way, but IMO assault rifles/battle rifles need to fullfil the role of suppressive fire to some degree, and an 8-shot Mattock won't go past the product discovery phase , and it sort of resembles just a really big pistol

[implodinggoat]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Yeah I guess it would be a very simple and effective solution to balance the gun that way, but IMO assault rifles/battle rifles need to fullfil the role of suppressive fire to some degree, and an 8-shot Mattock won't go past the product discovery phase , and it sort of resembles just a really big pistol

The M1 Garand had an 8 round clip and that gun beat the German war machine in WWII. 

In contrast the assault rifles we use today have larger clips and fire smaller rounds to provide greater suppressive fire; but can't do the same sort of damage per shot a Garand could.  The larger 308. round the Garrand uses is common in many modern Sniper Rifles and packs a lot more punch then the comparatively small 5.56 mm rounds used in most modern assault rifles.

We don't use Garrands anymore because a 5.56mm rounds is generally more than enough to drop a human target.  However; in the Mass Effect Universe a single shot won't kill a soldier in the same way a single bullet can kill a contemporary soldier, so suppressive fire isn't as big an advantage. 

Furthermore if you were hunting large game (like a bear) you'd want a more high caliber rifle like a Garrand, by the same token if you were pitted against a Krogan you'd likewise want a gun like the Mattock.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 22 février 2011 - 05:25 .

[Cancer Puppet]

implodinggoat wrote...

Sadly yes, the Avenger is so underpowered that its useless as soon as you get the Vindicator, Mattock or Revenant.

Its a shame too since the gun looks cool, is fun to fire, and could have filled a nice niche as a balanced gun with good suppressive fire, plenty of ammo and moderate accuracy. Unfortunately like all the more balanced full auto assault rifles (Avenger, Geth Pulse Rifle, Collector Rifle) its just too damn weak to be viable.

I really hope they balance the weapons out in ME3 because its a shame to see a unique gun like the Avenger rendered obsolete and worthless (Same goes for the Mantis, Incisor, Katana, Predator, Geth Pulse Rifle and to a lesser extent the Collector Rifle).

I agree, with the exception of the mantis. It's a toss-up for me on the mantis and the viper (if using a non-sniper class) It really depends on play style with those two. Do you want multiple shots that do less damage, or one shot that does alot of damage? Or course, nothing beats the widow. Nothing.

[Cancer Puppet]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

I think they should just fix the adrenaline rush bug and add kickback to the Mattock so that you can't land 16 headshots half a mile away. The gun deals like 50 damage per bullet which is almost the power of a sniper rifle and yet no recoil/kickback. it makes no sense that it's in the Incisor / Viper league with a much higher RoF and yet more accurate than those two when you shoot the Mattock like a madman.

I honestly don't think its ROF in Adrenaline Rush is a bug. 

The high ROF during adrenaline rush makes the gun unique in that it lets you unload an accurate and very devestating barrage rapidly.  If they patched that then it would remove the capability which makes the gun unique.

Like I said I think they should leave the Adrenaline Rush rapid fire as is and just half the clip size since that would balance the gun's power without removing the capability which makes it unique.

Yeah I guess it would be a very simple and effective solution to balance the gun that way, but IMO assault rifles/battle rifles need to fullfil the role of suppressive fire to some degree, and an 8-shot Mattock won't go past the product discovery phase , and it sort of resembles just a really big pistol

You guys do realise that all the guns in the firepower pack were meant NOT to be balanced at all, right? Those guns, along with the kestrel armor, were intended to make insanity beatable for the people who couldn't make it through with the default equipment. IMO anyway.

-polite.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Cancer Puppet wrote...

You guys do realise that all the guns in the firepower pack were meant NOT to be balanced at all, right? Those guns, along with the kestrel armor, were intended to make insanity beatable for the people who couldn't make it through with the default equipment. IMO anyway.

-polite.

Yeah, the Firepower pack is supposed to be break the balance, but the Mattock does it a lot more than the other guns in the DLC. The Phalanx doesn't replace the Predator or the Carniflex, it's got a very high damage but the slowest rate of fire, and the laser thing is a hit or miss. The GPS does insane damage but it isn't as good in point blank range as other shotguns because of the narrow spread, it doesn't proc ammo as effectively because it only fires 3 pellets, and it doesn't fire regular shots until you release the trigger, which makes it slower to shoot when you're behind cover. When you're using these guns, you're giving up something, but there's no disadvantage with the Mattock at all. Its drawback was supposed to be low ammo reserve but it's not really the case. IMO the Mattock isn't the whole problem, but it's because the Avenger sucks so much that the Mattock magnifies the AR imbalance even more. And personally, I think any high-damage weapons should have recoil because it's makes the weapon more believable (thats why the Widow and Claymore have that ooomph)

PS, Yes I think the Mattock is based on the M1, but that thing has recoil as all rifles do, and you can't land headshots while shooting it from the hip either.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 22 février 2011 - 06:19 .

[implodinggoat]

Cancer Puppet wrote...

I agree, with the exception of the mantis. It's a toss-up for me on the mantis and the viper (if using a non-sniper class) It really depends on play style with those two. Do you want multiple shots that do less damage, or one shot that does alot of damage? Or course, nothing beats the widow. Nothing.

I like the Mantis since I consider slow firing 1 shot, 1 kill sniper rifles more fun to use.  Unlike a Viper it can land 1 shot kills like a Widow; but in terms of raw DPS the Viper has a definite edge on it.

Aside from that I just don't like seeing guns rendered obsolete the way that the Widow renders the Mantis obsolete.  Granted you need advanced training to unlock the Widow; but I don't like advanced training for unlocking a single gun either.

At the start of the game I think the Mantis is fine; but I would have liked to have seen some weapon specific upgrades for it so that by the time you get the Viper you would have found an upgrade to give the Mantis as much ammo as a Widow and then a second upgrade around the time you get the Widow that gives it a good bit more ammo than the Widow (Say 20 rounds vs. the Widows 13).   That would have made it a good 1 shot, 1 kill Sniper Rifle that's a bit more forgiving on ammo than the mighty Widow.

[JaegerBane]

implodinggoat wrote...
I made a request to Christina Norman to issue some DLC which upgrades the underpowered guns, particularly the Avenger.

She responded that they didn't intend to do so since many players like the guns as they are.  I tend to think that's just an excuse for not doing extra work on ME2 that won't generate them any extra cash during a time when they are working heavily on developing ME3.   I don't consider that motivation to be unreasonable myself; but the devs aren't going to say that because doing so would generate all sorts of criticism for them being greedy and/or lazy.

I had a feeling this was the case. I suppose when they're developing an entirely new game, spending time farting about with existing weapon balances can't be seen as particularly productive. 'Course it's not like the Avenger's balance has been fine until recently - I can remember some of the discussions a few days after release with people getting sick of the avenger's one-kill-per-clip approach. I do have to wonder where all these people who like the current balance actually are. I've certainly never met one.

It's good that the devs are aware of the dissatisfaction and we won't have pea-shooters in ME3, but really, that isn't much help for ME2.

I don't think they want to do this because they don't want to add any guns which fill the same tactical role of existing guns which they'll probably just want to rebalance for ME3.   In the case of assault rifles they already have 3 fairly accurate full auto assault rifles (Avenger, Geth Pulse Rifle, Collector Rifle) so they'll probably want to save themselves some work by just rebalancing these guns for ME3 rather then releasing a new gun which fills the same role.

I can't see much sympathy being generated for such a stance. If keeping tactical roles to single guns was a concern then stuff like the Mattock and the Incisor would never have been released. There's a load of tactical repetition as it is, so the idea they want to avoid it sounds a little moot. The fact they have three lumps of crap currently occupying the role of such a basic weapon in shooters doesn't somehow make up for the fact that there isn't anything worthwhile to use.

The fact they're underpowered effectively makes all their intended functions and differences basically redundant, as there's no good reason to use them. That's the point behind having good balance.

As a result I wouldn't expect a new fully auto AR for ME2 since they'd have trouble adding one which didn't fill the same tactical role as the existing underpowered guns do.  Thus if they added a new one full auto AR then they'd have two near identicle guns in ME3.

They did it with mattock/vindicator situation. It's not like the precedent doesn't exist.

My Suggestion

Balancing the guns for ME3 is a must; but aside from that I'd just like to see Bioware release an upgraded Avenger as free Ceberus Network DLC.   Ideally an Avenger that would fire just like the current weapon; but that would have a DPS output similar to a Tempest SMG.   That would save Bioware time since they could use the same weapon model twice and it would let the old Avenger fill the same role it currently does in ME2 as the gun you use to gimp yourself.

Honestly, the quickest, easiest solution here wouldn't even need to go that far. There's two things they could do:

1) Just remove the class restrictions on the tier 3 guns (Rev, Widow and Claymore). Just treat them the same as any other weapon in the class. While they're powerful, they're not so far ahead of any of the other weapons in each class that they represent serious class advantages. In the case of the Rev and Claymore they've already been outpaced by freely available weapons as it is, while the Widow only reaches it's zenith if the player has slowdown ability. PC players can already do this quite easily with minor modding, so this change would largely be for the benefit of the console players. This way, any class that picks up AR training could use a full auto gun that shoots actual rounds as oppose to flower petals. The rev is self-balancing already, as while it packs a huge punch and a great clip, it needs burst firing to function on anything smaller than a krogan, just like an actual assault rifle.

2) Give the Vindicator a full auto/pulsing ability like the Shuriken. That way you're trading greater damage for a lower clip capacity, just like a real battle rifle and just like the codex actually states how it works. It would also give it some purpose with the Mattock on the scene.

The addition of a new DLC would be nice, but it isn't needed.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 22 février 2011 - 12:41 .

[termokanden]

I still don't think the Rev is anyway near as inaccurate as people say. Yes it's not the perfect gun to use for headshots at long range. That's not the point of it anyway. I can fire full-auto at medium range and still hit my target consistently (also non-krogans). Without AR. That's pretty good for a gun with reasonable damage, huge clips and a near-infinite supply of ammo.

Modifié par termokanden, 22 février 2011 - 12:58 .

[JaegerBane]

termokanden wrote...

I still don't think the Rev is anyway near as inaccurate as people say. Yes it's not the perfect gun to use for headshots at long range. That's not the point of it anyway. I can fire full-auto at medium range and still hit my target consistently (also non-krogans). Without AR. That's pretty good for a gun with reasonable damage, huge clips and a near-infinite supply of ammo.

I agree. What I was primarily getting at is the high DPS levels shown on the wiki rely on firing on full-auto for a full minute, which isn't really an option for the Rev unless you're at short range or shooting at a big target. That can make it look like a lot more powerful than it actually is, but as you say, it's still an effective medium-range gun.

[jasonsantanna]

naledgeborn wrote...

I usually equip Grunt with the Avenger because he can stay out of cover longer than other squaddies. Zaeed, Garrus, and Samara get the Vindicator because they have 270 health at best and because of the short bursts before reloads. Legion gets the GPR because of RPing purposes. Mattock is useless for squad mates because semi-auto rate of fire. I do use the Avenger/Vindicator when I get bored of the Revenant though. The Avenger makes Insanity harder.

I usually do the same as most ppl , after Freedoms Progress , I grab the Mattock , but I started a new Soldier , just to play thur Arrival and decided not to use the Mattock , it is way to powerful it takes the challenge out of the game , I give it to my squad mates and choose to use the Avenger , I'm having a blast it makes you rethink your playing style , I use it to strip shields mid range then follow up with hvy pistol or move in close with a shot gun blast, its not a stand alone AR , it needs support weapons to go along with it , but do have to add it does sound and fire sweet under A.Rush

[Alamar2078]

termokanden wrote...

I still don't think the Rev is anyway near as inaccurate as people say. Yes it's not the perfect gun to use for headshots at long range. That's not the point of it anyway. I can fire full-auto at medium range and still hit my target consistently (also non-krogans). Without AR. That's pretty good for a gun with reasonable damage, huge clips and a near-infinite supply of ammo.

Revvy isn't a very accurate weapon but as you and others have said it's useful and depending on your playstyle may be nearly perfect.

Before the Accuracy Update I don't like it much.  Even then short bursts, using it in AR, etc. all help overcome its shortcomings.  I used it as my main weapon in Arrival and it worked fine even when shooting guys further downfield.   At a certain point though you should just switch to the Viper [for another weapon with good DPS & big clips and good firing rate].

[jasonsantanna]

The Avenger and Geth pulse rifle , have the same base damage , the clip sizes are similar the rate of fire is only a difference of 150, and there are a lot of players who love that weapon , I still think it all boils down to ones play style , a lot of players use one weapon for they're main weapon thur out the game , when using a weapon like the Avenger you almost have always use a follow up gun or a finisher weapon, its not meant to be supreme AR , it works short mid and minor short distance to provide cover fire and stripping shields ,atleast that's how I use it , if you look @ it for more you will be disappointed

[CroGamer002]

Nope.

Avenger is great.


Unlike with other kinds of weapon, there is no worse then the other Assault Rifle in ME2

With exception of Mattock since it's broken and is far better then any other gun in ME2( well except Widow).

Modifié par Mesina2, 06 avril 2011 - 07:39 .

[CroGamer002]

Kronner wrote...

Avenger sucks, it is a useless weapon.

There is so much wrong in this post.

[Kronner]

Mesina2 wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Avenger sucks, it is a useless weapon.

There is so much wrong in this post.

What exactly is wrong? It does even less damage than Locust, which is SMG. Vindicator is FAR better than Avenger too. There's nothing to discuss, the numbers speak for themselves.

Modifié par Kronner, 06 avril 2011 - 07:48 .