85 réponses à ce sujet

[adneate]

So we're supposed to buy into this "Corruption" sub plot because they did it once with a Star Wars RPG? Oh Bastila your effect on the fan base is long lasting indeed, too bad they only remember one part of your character. Seems like sexism to me, the weak little woman can't handle the big job so someone (a man) has to save her from herself.



If Garrus or Kaidan was the new Shadow Broker I doubt anyone would say, "Oh he might not be able to handle it." They'd probably just say "Dude man bro has a wicked sweet job bro man!"



And if you're going to bring up an example of a "corrupted" character can't you think of something better than the terrible abortions of film making that are the Star Wars prequels? It's not like the trope of "a fall from grace" is hard to find.

[AkiKishi]

adneate wrote...

So we're supposed to buy into this "Corruption" sub plot because they did it once with a Star Wars RPG? Oh Bastila your effect on the fan base is long lasting indeed, too bad they only remember one part of your character. Seems like sexism to me, the weak little woman can't handle the big job so someone (a man) has to save her from herself.

If Garrus or Kaidan was the new Shadow Broker I doubt anyone would say, "Oh he might not be able to handle it." They'd probably just say "Dude man bro has a wicked sweet job bro man!"

And if you're going to bring up an example of a "corrupted" character can't you think of something better than the terrible abortions of film making that are the Star Wars prequels? It's not like the trope of "a fall from grace" is hard to find.

You mean KOTOR ? Actually I'd forgotten about that one.

Well Garrus is already borderline anyway. It would hardly come as a shocker to anyone. Kaidan (that's Japanese for "creepy" or stairs isnt it ?) Would probably hand the whole thing over to the alliance like the good little soldier he is.

Star Wars is the easiest one from memory and the parallels fit. Not much reason to dig deeper.

[darknoon5]

Do I want to see it corrupt Liara? No



Would I like to see it affect her? Yes



I'd feel the exact same way if it was somebody like Garrus, or possibly even Wrex.

[Suron]

DPSSOC wrote...

Suron wrote...
2. Liara wouldn't decide to have his child without concenting him

I wouldn't be so sure, she gave your body away to be violated by a criminal organization without your consent.

that's not even REMOTELY near the same thing...you were DEAD...when it comes to medical matters consent is IMPLIED when you are unable to actually do so.  Being you couldn't have a say in the matter she opted to take your corpse and give it to the ONLY people who could MAYBE bring you back to life.

It's like me giving you CPR when you're unconscious (to a great extreme yes, but still the same)...consent is implied because you were UNABLE to consciously give consent yourself.

Regardless of that how you can say because she gave you to Cerberus to save your life without your consent is ANY indication of her possibly doing ANYTHING ELSE with you without your consent is an absolutely assinine comparison.

no offense but that's just plain stupid as hell.

Modifié par Suron, 20 février 2011 - 08:04 .

[adneate]

BobSmith101 wrote...
Star Wars is the easiest one from memory and the parallels fit. Not much reason to dig deeper.

The entirity of your argument swings on the fact that she was once angry in her office, therefore she'll betray everyone and everything she ever knew and start killing people for no particular reason.

It ignores all the charaterization in both the DLC and the first game, how about you go back to the first game and don't just agree with everything she says and be nice to her. She more than proves that she has a strong moral compass and is willing to stand up and fight for what she believes in. She won't just let Shepard push her around or influence her world view and the idea that upon being the new Shadow Broker she'd just say "Ah screw it" to all her past values it an utterly ludicrious idea. Particularily when she still has them in the DLC and if you push her to be the new Shadow Broker she will express her own private reservations about doing so.

It's so blatantly obvious that Liara both understands the potential for misuse the network is capable of and is taking active steps against that from the very first second she's in control. The argument that she can't reform it or handle the position has no basis in the source material and relies soley on outside sources to make any half-way convincing case.

All anyone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt is that other characters can be corrupted by power in other writer's stories.

[Mr.House]

Bastila getting corrupted make sense and it was not a shocker. There was a lot of foreshadowing and it made sense she would get corrupted near the end. It does not make sense with Liara. There is nothing to indicate that it will corrupt her or she will need Shepard's fault. We have a women in a powerful position, if Bioware screws that up that will have a smack in the face to fans and women who are used to seeing men in powerful positions and never get corrupted.

[AkiKishi]

adneate wrote...

The entirity of your argument swings on the fact that she was once angry in her office, therefore she'll betray everyone and everything she ever knew and start killing people for no particular reason.

It ignores all the charaterization in both the DLC and the first game, how about you go back to the first game and don't just agree with everything she says and be nice to her. She more than proves that she has a strong moral compass and is willing to stand up and fight for what she believes in. She won't just let Shepard push her around or influence her world view and the idea that upon being the new Shadow Broker she'd just say "Ah screw it" to all her past values it an utterly ludicrious idea. Particularily when she still has them in the DLC and if you push her to be the new Shadow Broker she will express her own private reservations about doing so.

It's so blatantly obvious that Liara both understands the potential for misuse the network is capable of and is taking active steps against that from the very first second she's in control. The argument that she can't reform it or handle the position has no basis in the source material and relies soley on outside sources to make any half-way convincing case.

All anyone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt is that other characters can be corrupted by power in other writer's stories.

I don't think I ever said she would betray everyone only become "Darth Benezia" 

It's got nothing to do with saying "ah screw it" and throwing your morals away. You can have the best intentions and circumstances can still change you. The more idealistic you are , the more that tends to happen.

It's not really about proving anything it's just one way Liara can evolve as a character. Clearly one you don't like, and I don't know what the chip on your shoulder with Bastila is. But it's a plausible outcome that Liara goes "darkside". And starts enjoying being SB just a bit too much.

Mr.House wrote...

Bastila getting corrupted make sense and it was not a shocker. There was a lot of foreshadowing and it made sense she would get corrupted near the end. It does not make sense with Liara. There is nothing to indicate that it will corrupt her or she will need Shepard's fault. We have a women in a powerful position, if Bioware screws that up that will have a smack in the face to fans and women who are used to seeing men in powerful positions and never get corrupted.

The most well known example and the one I'm using is a man. Boromir was a man, most despotic world leaders who were corrupted by power were men. Really not seeing the angle here sorry. Bastilia now it's triggered my memory is the only one that pops up. I'm sure there are other examples. I just can't think of them.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 20 février 2011 - 08:20 .

[adneate]

BobSmith101 wrote...
It's not really about proving anything it's just one way Liara can evolve as a character. Clearly one you don't like, and I don't know what the chip on your shoulder with Bastila is. But it's a plausible outcome that Liara goes "darkside". And starts enjoying being SB just a bit too much.

It's not it's a stupid outcome and an example of god awful writing, you can't just pull characterization out of your ass. You can't take a character with NONE of the hooks for this change and then suddenly change them because you decided that would be interesting. You have to have both a suitible character AND a transformative circumstance. All you can provide is a circumstance and you've just given up with the whole suitable character part because you don't have one in Liara.

This is like Creative Writing 101 . . .

[James2912]

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Liara is my LI and my favorite female character I would like it if you can influence her in ME3 to give up being the shadowbroker after the Reapers are gone. Seriously guys it is really foreshadowed in ME2 that she is getting darker, Its quite obvious to the point that it is a little scary how much she has changed,

[Suron]

James2912 wrote...

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Liara is my LI and my favorite female character I would like it if you can influence her in ME3 to give up being the shadowbroker after the Reapers are gone. Seriously guys it is really foreshadowed in ME2 that she is getting darker, Its quite obvious to the point that it is a little scary how much she has changed,

I think some of that though is more due to her VA's own maturing voice and sound.

listen to Liara in ME1..she sounds young, innocent, vibrant..etc.
then listen to her in ME2...her voice sounds more....depressed (for lack of better term)..and she doesn't come across as innocent or near as vibrant anymore..some say it's her maturing...

I noticed this with her VA as Lightning in FF13...AND as the Dr. in StarCraft 2...honestly the woman (can't think of her name sorry but I mean the woman IRL) sounds like she's been through some really bad crap or something...her entire demeaner is different then it used to be and I think a lot of that is coming through Liara as a resault.

Modifié par Suron, 20 février 2011 - 08:28 .

[AkiKishi]

adneate wrote...

It's not it's a stupid outcome and an example of god awful writing, you can't just pull characterization out of your ass. You can't take a character with NONE of the hooks for this change and then suddenly change them because you decided that would be interesting. You have to have both a suitible character AND a transformative circumstance. All you can provide is a circumstance and you've just given up with the whole suitable character part because you don't have one in Liara.

This is like Creative Writing 101 . . .

I've already pointed out the hook for change it would just need to be worked on over the course of ME3 as you make choices depending on the SB network.

I've got both. In Liara I have a suitable character and in the SB network I have a transformative circumstance.
We know Liara has a darkside, driven by revenge threatening people with Asari commandos and having "people".
She may lighten up on meeting Shepard but that does not mean it just goes away.

I've met your criteria I think. If your objection is some feminist thing, which seems likely with what you said about Bastila, then let's be honest no meeting criteria is ever going to be enough anyway. Even if she had a neon sign over her head saying "I am Evil".

Suron wrote...

I noticed this with her VA as Lightning in FF13...AND as the Dr. in StarCraft 2...honestly the woman (can't think of her name sorry but I mean the woman IRL) sounds like she's been through some really bad crap or something...her entire demeaner is different then it used to be and I think a lot of that is coming through Liara as a resault.

Ali Hills, never played SC2 so I can't really say.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 20 février 2011 - 08:34 .

[James2912]

Suron wrote...

James2912 wrote...

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Liara is my LI and my favorite female character I would like it if you can influence her in ME3 to give up being the shadowbroker after the Reapers are gone. Seriously guys it is really foreshadowed in ME2 that she is getting darker, Its quite obvious to the point that it is a little scary how much she has changed,

I think some of that though is more due to her VA's own maturing voice and sound.

listen to Liara in ME1..she sounds young, innocent, vibrant..etc.
then listen to her in ME2...her voice sounds more....depressed (for lack of better term)..and she doesn't come across as innocent or near as vibrant anymore..some say it's her maturing...

I noticed this with her VA as Lightning in FF13...AND as the Dr. in StarCraft 2...honestly the woman (can't think of her name sorry but I mean the woman IRL) sounds like she's been through some really bad crap or something...her entire demeaner is different then it used to be and I think a lot of that is coming through Liara as a resault.

You might very well have a point there but I was more talking about her actual lines, I can start a war for example. And her repeating Benezia's line from ME1. Its hard for a video game to portray character development at least in comparison to a book so when there is a change in a  character it is pretty obvious. I'm not saying omg Liara is bad now, I'm just saying that shep should keep an eye on her because she is at a fork in the road.

[adneate]

BobSmith101 wrote...
I've got both. In Liara I have a suitable character and in the SB network I have a transformative circumstance.
We know Liara has a darkside, driven by revenge threatening people with Asari commandos and having "people".
She may lighten up on meeting Shepard but that does not mean it just goes away.

I shot that down in my previous post with content from an entire other game and a DLC. So no you don't have a suitable character, for the second time. Also that last line is delicious so the "ruthless" aspect doesn't go away but the non-ruthless aspect which is the vast majority of the character does?

[AkiKishi]

adneate wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
I've got both. In Liara I have a suitable character and in the SB network I have a transformative circumstance.
We know Liara has a darkside, driven by revenge threatening people with Asari commandos and having "people".
She may lighten up on meeting Shepard but that does not mean it just goes away.

I shot that down in my previous post with content from an entire other game and a DLC. So no you don't have a suitable character, for the second time. Also that last line is delicious so the "ruthless" aspect doesn't go away but the non-ruthless aspect which is the vast majority of the character does?

You never shot it down so much as ignored it. Are you saying she never spoke those lines? Shepard might lighten her up, but Shepards going to be a bit busy fighting Reapers to keep an eye on her.

Her non ruthless personality does not need to go away, as long as she has demonstrated ruthlesness  she's a suitable character by the criteria you challanged me with.

[adneate]

BobSmith101 wrote...
You never shot it down so much as ignored it. Are you saying she never spoke those lines? Shepard might lighten her up, but Shepards going to be a bit busy fighting Reapers to keep an eye on her.

The lines are in the context of her being frustrated with a hold out
client, hardly a rounding codemnation of the character as an immoral
monster. Sometimes people are mad and they say things in anger they
don't mean or they exaggerate to make a point.

BobSmith101 wrote...
Her non ruthless personality does not need to go away, as long as she has demonstrated ruthlesness  she's a suitable character by the criteria you challanged me with.

So the 2% of the character overwhelms the 98% and you think that's a great piece of writing? It's so contrived and forced that I doubt a fan fiction writer in Grade 9 would think is was a well crafted twist.

M Night Shyamalan would consider that twist, a "Bit of a stretch."

Modifié par adneate, 20 février 2011 - 08:49 .

[DPSSOC]

Suron wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
I wouldn't be so sure, she gave your body away to be violated by a criminal organization without your consent.

that's not even REMOTELY near the same thing...you were DEAD...when it comes to medical matters consent is IMPLIED when you are unable to actually do so.  Being you couldn't have a say in the matter she opted to take your corpse and give it to the ONLY people who could MAYBE bring you back to life.

It's like me giving you CPR when you're unconscious (to a great extreme yes, but still the same)...consent is implied because you were UNABLE to consciously give consent yourself.

It would appear I've touched a nerve, interesting.  Slight difference CPR doesn't involve invasive surgery.  Let's not mince words here your corpse was desecrated (for however fine a reason).  Even coma patients don't have implied consent to surgical (experimental surgical I might add) procedures.  In those cases consent falls to next of kin or whoever has been appointed power of attorney.  With CPR you can imply consent because time is a limiting factor; this is not the case for the Lazarus Project.  Yes I was unable to give consent, but that does not give Liara the right to consent on my behalf to experimental surgical procedures.  Heck for 2 out of 3 Shepards their body was technically the property of the Alliance at that point (no next of kin to claim it).

Now admittedly this is only as big an issue as you decide to make it (and in fact you can call Liara on this very point).

Suron wrote...
Regardless of that how you can say because she gave you to Cerberus to save your life without your consent is ANY indication of her possibly doing ANYTHING ELSE with you without your consent is an absolutely assinine comparison.

To use an analogy; if someone steals a car it's unlikely they'd have problems with stealing a chocolate bar.  Handing you over to Cerberus to have you corpse desecrated is a much bigger deal than simply having a kid (especially when Asari are used to raising children on their own).  If she's willing to force you back to life without your consent why would she pause at having your child without your consent?

[Xilizhra]

Your analogy is, simply put, insane. For one thing, Liara only helped Cerberus take Shepard's body, and that was very largely because the Shadow Broker and Collectors were trying to take the thing as well. For another, Liara, if I remember the comic correctly, probably wouldn't have done so if the Reaper threat hadn't been incoming. She says that she couldn't let you go, but I think that she's being too hard on herself. She would have been able to if there hadn't been a galactic crisis going on that required Shepard's know-how.

Having a baby is a completely different thing, unless she'd also be vital against the Reapers. If that... happene, for whatever reason, then maybe Liara would do it. But for no other reson; she loves Shepard too much to do that to her for a non-galaxy-shaking reason.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...
Your analogy is, simply put, insane.

 
Yeah probably.

Xilizhra wrote...
For one thing, Liara only helped Cerberus take Shepard's body, and that was very largely because the Shadow Broker and Collectors were trying to take the thing as well. For another, Liara, if I remember the comic correctly, probably wouldn't have done so if the Reaper threat hadn't been incoming. She says that she couldn't let you go, but I think that she's being too hard on herself. She would have been able to if there hadn't been a galactic crisis going on that required Shepard's know-how.

Perhaps, or maybe she would have had Shepard cremated (again without consent) and keep the urn with his/her ashes in it.  People, even aliens, are messed up and there is no limit to the lengths we'll go to justify our actions.

Xilizhra wrote...
Having a baby is a completely different thing, unless she'd also be vital against the Reapers. If that... happene, for whatever reason, then maybe Liara would do it. But for no other reson; she loves Shepard too much to do that to her for a non-galaxy-shaking reason.

Not really that different, your forcing a life upon someone.  Only difference is in one case it's their own and in another it's a child.

[Wulfram]

DPSSOC wrote...

Not really that different, your forcing a life upon someone.  Only difference is in one case it's their own and in another it's a child.

It's rather more difficult to ask "Hey, do you want to come back to life?" than "Fancy having a kid?"

[JaylaClark]

Mr.House wrote...

Bastila getting corrupted make sense and it was not a shocker. There was a lot of foreshadowing and it made sense she would get corrupted near the end.

It was an annoying cliche that bugged the hell out of me, though.  Not the fact that Bas was a woman and went bad, though, it's just, how many times did Star Wars use the old "Good intentions next 50 feet" ploy in the EU?

It does not make sense with Liara. There is nothing to indicate that it will corrupt her or she will need Shepard's fault. We have a women in a powerful position, if Bioware screws that up that will have a smack in the face to fans and women who are used to seeing men in powerful positions and never get corrupted.

This, however, I fully am on board with.  Liara, almost canonically the second most Paragon character in the game, going evil, makes no sense, even from the old "Power corrupts, and absolute power is really pretty neat corrupts absolutely" concept.  She's shown to be aware of that danger, in fact, when she says "Give me ten minutes and I could start a war", and then subverts that with her acknowledgement that it wouldn't help the underlying mission in the least.

[DPSSOC]

Wulfram wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Not really that different, your forcing a life upon someone.  Only difference is in one case it's their own and in another it's a child.

It's rather more difficult to ask "Hey, do you want to come back to life?" than "Fancy having a kid?"

And I'll repeat, if you can't ask DON'T.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Not really that different, your forcing a life upon someone.  Only difference is in one case it's their own and in another it's a child.

It's rather more difficult to ask "Hey, do you want to come back to life?" than "Fancy having a kid?"

And I'll repeat, if you can't ask DON'T.

So... make Cerberus into an enemy and possibly doom the galaxy. Brilliant plan.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...
So... make Cerberus into an enemy and possibly doom the galaxy. Brilliant plan.

Never said it'd work out well for everybody but what do I care, I'm dead and staying that way.

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So... make Cerberus into an enemy and possibly doom the galaxy. Brilliant plan.

Never said it'd work out well for everybody but what do I care, I'm dead and staying that way.

So you'd rather stay dead?

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...
So you'd rather stay dead?

With the exception of 1 Shepard yes.  Most of my Shepards are Colonist or Earthborn so the vast majority of their life has been nothing but hardship, blood, fire, and death.  Death was a release for them, they finally had the peace they'd fought for for so long and it was ripped away from them.  I snap at Liara for what she did and if they gave me the option I'd snap at Miranda too.