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A "colorful" analysis of cross class combo (Base Talents Only)


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#1
Naitaka

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A friend and I was disccusing CCC and the best way to utilize them in a team of 4. We sort of drafted this on google document and I thought I'd share it everyone with some added color coding. Also, for those of you who are only interested in the conclusion, scroll down to the bottom of the post. I hope you guys enjoy this. Also you can find the list of all the talents here.
:happy:

Update: feel free to add to the interesting fact list, I'll edit the top post as often as possible.

Causes STAGGER (Warrior Only):
STAGGER causes targets to receive -25% attack, -25% defense.

Single Target:

Sword and Shield:
1. Shield Bash (with Pummel):
Requires: Level 6
Activated Ability
100% Chance.

Two-Handed:
2. Sunder:
Requires: Level 4
Passive
50% vs. normal enemies on a critical hit.

Vanguard:
3. Cleave (with Claymore):
Requires: Level 10
Acitvated Ability
40% vs. normal enemies on auto-attack.

Warmonger:
4. Pommel Strike (with Pommel Blow):
Requires Level 3
Activated Ability
Stun chance: 100% vs. normal enemies
100% Chance against stunned targets.

Area of Effect:

Warmonger:
5.Tremor (with Aftershock)
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
40% vs. normal enemies

Causes DISORIENT (Rogue Only):
DISORIENT causes targets to receive -50% defense.


Single Target:


Archer:
1. Pinning Shot (with Disorienting Shot)
Requires: Level 8
Activated Ability
Pinning chance: 80% vs. normal enemies
100% vs. pinned enemies


Area of Effect:
Sabotage:
2. Fatiguing Fog (with Overpowering Fog)
Requires: Level 13
Activated Ability
100% vs. normal enemies
3. Confusion (with Chaos)
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
Confuse chance: 50% vs. normal enemies
100% vs. confused targets

Causes BRITTLE (Mage Only):
BRITTLE causes targets to take +50% critical damage.

Single Target:


Elemental
1. Winter's Grasp (with Winter's Blast):
Requires: Level 6 (Level 10)
Activated Ability
Freeze chance: 100% vs. normal enemies
40% vs. frozen targets (100% with Elemental Mastery)

Primal
2. Petrify (with Desiccate):
Requires: Level 8
Activated Ability
BRITTLE chance: 100% vs. normal enemies

Area of Effect:

Elemental
3. Cone of Cold (with Deep Freeze):
Requires: Level 8 (Level 10)
Activated Ability
Freeze chance: 60% vs. normal enemies
BRITTLE chance: 20% vs. frozen targets (100% with Elemental Mastery)

Exploits STAGGER:


Rogue:

Single Target:

Dual Weapon:
1. Explosive Strike (with Merciless Strike):
Requires: Level 4
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 400% vs STAGGERED targets
2. Lacerate (with Main):
Requires: Level 9
Sustained mode
Bleeding Chance: 100% vs. STAGGERED targets

Marksman: (Varric Only)  (Information Provided by Zhel_Ryn)
3. Kickback (with Backlash)
Requires: Level 12
Activated Ability
Physical force: 800% vs. STAGGERED targets

Mage:

Single Target:

Arcane:
1. Crushing Prison (with Paralyzing Prison):
Requires: Level 10
Activated Ability
Physcial damage: 200% vs. STAGGERED targets
Paralyze chance: 40% vs. normal enemies
Paralyze chance: 100% vs. STAGGERED targets

Area of Effect:

Primal:
2. Chain Lightning (with Chain Reaction):
Requires: Level 6
Activated Ability
Electricity damage: 600% vs. STAGGERED targets
Elemental force: 200% vs. STAGGERED targets

Exploits DISORIENT:


Warrior:


Single Target:

Weapon and Shield:
1. Assault (with Battery)
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 400% vs. DISORIENTED targets on final hit

Area of Effect:

Weapon and Shield:
2. Scatter (with Disperse)
Requires: Level 10
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 300% vs DISORIENTED targets

Mage:

Single Target:

Primal:
1. Stonefist (with Golem's Fist):
Requires: Level 6
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 200% vs. DISORIENTED targets
Physical force: 200% vs. DISORIENTED targets

Spirit:
2. Spirit Bolt (with Spirit Strike):
Requires: Level 6
Activated Ability
Spirit damage: 200% vs. DISORIENTED targets
Elemental force: 200% vs. DISORIENTED targets

Area of Effect:

Spirit:
3. Walking Bomb:
Requires: Level 8 (Level 10)
Activated Ability
Spirit damage: 200% vs. victim If DISORIENTED (200% vs. vs. nearby targets upon explosion if victim is DISORIENTED with Virulent Walking Bomb)
(Physical force: 200% vs. vs. nearby targets upon explosion if victim is DISORIENTED with Virulent Walking Bomb)

Exploits BRITTLE:

Warrior:

Single Target:


Two-Handed:
1. Mighty Blow (with Shattering Blow):
Requires: Level 8
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 300% vs. BRITTLE targets
Physical force: 200% vs. BRITTLE targets

Vanguard:
2. Cleave (with Claymore):
Requires: Level 10
Acitvated Ability
Stun chance: 100% vs. BRITTLE targets

Area of Effect:


Two-Handed:
3. Scythe (with Reaper):
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 200% vs. BRITTLE targets
Physical force: 200% vs BRITTLE targets

Rogue:

Area of Effect:


Archer:
1. Bursting Arrow (with Shattering Arrow):
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
Fire damage: 600% vs. BRITTLE targets
Elemental force: 400% vs. BRITTLE targets

2. Archer's Lance (with Punishing Lance):
Requires: level 11
Activated Ability
Physical damage: +9 vs. all BRITTLE targets along path
Physical force: 400% vs. all BRITTLE targets along path

Interesting Facts:


1. Rogue and mage both have 3 skills that cause CCC, warrior has 5.
2. Warrior and mage only have 1 skill that causes AOE CCC, rogue has 2.
3. Warmonger tree for the warrior has the most skills that cause STAGGER.
4. Sabotage tree for the rogue has the most skills that cause DISORIENT.
5. Elemental tree for the mage has the most skills that cause BRITTLE.
6. Both warrior and mage have 5 skills that exploit CCC, rogue only has 4.
7. Warrior can exploit DISORIENT most with the Weapon and Shield tree.
8. Warrior can exploit BRITTLE most with the Two-Handed tree.
9. Rogue can exploit STAGGER most with the Dual Weapon tree.
10. Rogue can exploit BRITTLE most with the Archer tree.
11. Mage can exploit DISORIENT most with the the Spirit tree.
12. Cleave in the Vanguard tree is the only skill that both causes and takes advantage of CCC.
13. The Archer is the only tree that has two AOE skills that take advantage of CCC.
14. While Chain Lighting is the best skill for exploiting STAGGERED condition, Bursting Arrow is the best skill for exploiting BRITTLE. Both give a 600% bonus to damage. (contributed by ViSeirA)
15. While Pommel Strike and Explosive Strike has the lowest level requirement for a CCC at level 4, Fatiguing Fog and Scatter has the highest level requirement at level 10.
16. Sunder, Cleave, and Lacerate can apply CCC to your basic attack and talents that strike with your weapon, effectively allowing them to deal AOE CCC if you use the right talent. (confirmed by Peter)
17. Obscure effect give party members +20% to dodge. Talents that causes Obscure are: Bursting Arrow (Smoking Arrow), Fatiguing Fog (Impenetrable Fog), Chameleon's Breath (Chameleon's Cloud).
18. Fatiguing Fog's negative effect does not have FF, only the obscure effect will be applied to party members inside the fog.
19. Two-Handed basic attacks and talents do full damage to all the targets caught in their effective range. However, the attack must make a seperate to-hit and on-hit CCC effect roll for each target.

Terminology:
CCC: Cross class Combo
AOE: Area of Effect
FF: Friendly Fire

Modifié par Naitaka, 25 février 2011 - 04:05 .


#2
Gfan24

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WOW! I'm sure something like this will end up in a guide but you're the first to do it...should be stickied. This could really help us people who will play on nightmare just to receive friendly fire...we'll need all the help we can get.

#3
Eclipse_9990

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Nice job. Thanks for taking the time.

#4
ViSeiRa

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Goes into my bookmarks... this is awesome, will save me a lot of time when the game is actually out.

#5
The Elder King

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Very interesting! Thank you :)

#6
Walker White

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This matches what I saw in the trees. We do not know what CCC exist in the specializations, however.

Elemental seems to be the best chain for causing BRITTLE. Even though desiccate has a 100% chance at lower cost than elemental mastery, it also conveys the damage reduction of the base ability, which is 50%. As the CCC are no longer instant kills like shattering in DA:O, this is a big deal.

I suspect this means Varric is a mainstay in my party, since S&B cannot exploit BRITTLE as well, but is the better tank.

Modifié par Walker White, 20 février 2011 - 05:50 .


#7
ViSeiRa

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Also seems like Chain Reaction and Bursting Arrow are the best for exploiting damage from Staggered and Brittle status respectively, both give a 600% bonus, definitely picking those up.

#8
Amioran

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Archer and Mage seems a deadly combo this time around, especially on Nightmare. Lightning doesn't cause FF and Archer's Lance neither (and this combo seems to be very poweful indeed) for how I read it.

#9
cesia256

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Serious kudos to Naitaka - thank you so much for posting this and making everything so clear!

#10
Walker White

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Amioran wrote...

Archer and Mage seems a deadly combo this time around, especially on Nightmare. Lightning doesn't cause FF and Archer's Lance neither (and this combo seems to be very poweful indeed) for how I read it.


From reading the AOE descriptions, it looks to me that Reaper+Giant's Reach is better for cleaning up a cone of cold/deep freeze. The Archer AOE is in a line only.  

However, Giant's Reach is supposed to have nasty FF on nightmare.

#11
Naitaka

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Walker White wrote...

From reading the AOE descriptions, it looks to me that Reaper+Giant's Reach is better for cleaning up a cone of cold/deep freeze. The Archer AOE is in a line only.  

However, Giant's Reach is supposed to have nasty FF on nightmare.


For the record, I tried out Cone of Cold in the demo and it's more like a fan shape than a cone shape in DA2. It opens up at about 100~120% angle and has a much shorter radius than the Origin's Cone of Cold.

#12
Walker White

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Naitaka wrote...

Walker White wrote...

From reading the AOE descriptions, it looks to me that Reaper+Giant's Reach is better for cleaning up a cone of cold/deep freeze. The Archer AOE is in a line only.  

However, Giant's Reach is supposed to have nasty FF on nightmare.


For the record, I tried out Cone of Cold in the demo and it's more like a fan shape than a cone shape in DA2. It opens up at about 100~120% angle and has a much shorter radius than the Origin's Cone of Cold.


If that is true, then you really want a 2H to take care of it.  You will have frozen enemies scattered everywhere.

#13
Nonoru

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Can we request a sticky ?



Nice job.

#14
Naitaka

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Walker White wrote...

If that is true, then you really want a 2H to take care of it.  You will have frozen enemies scattered everywhere.


It really depends on how wide the line attack is going to be. maybe if the archer shoot from a perpendicular angle you can cover enough area if it has enough width.

#15
Tleining

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@ Walker White

not on nightmare though, might be too close to your mage.



i hope we will have a display of how Archers Lance is going to fly instead of just pointing at one enemy.

#16
Guest_Glaucon_*

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Good job OP. I think CCCs are going to be quite important at the higher difficulty levels. The arguments about class A being better than class B just became weaker IMO.

#17
masterofphate

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there was already a thread with these

http://social.biowar...1/index/6106947

#18
Naitaka

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masterofphate wrote...

there was already a thread with these
http://social.biowar...1/index/6106947


Ah, sorry I didn't notice it. Oh well at least mine looks more interesting with all the pretty color? :P

#19
Silver Direwolf

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Nice work :D

#20
Roma Victa

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Thanks, Naitaka.  Some very interesting stuff in this and your other threads.  Much appreciated.

#21
Naitaka

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Ideal party with CCC in mind:
1. Warrior: Warmonger + Weapon and Shield
2. Mage: Elemental + Primal
3. Rogue: Archer + Sabotage
4. class of your liking

I think I got my nightmare team all figured out now. :lol:

Modifié par Naitaka, 20 février 2011 - 07:17 .


#22
Sabresandiego

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Naitaka wrote...

Interesting Facts:


1. Rogue and mage both have 3 skills that cause CCC, warrior has 5.
2. Warrior and mage only have 1 skill that causes AOE CCC, rogue has 2.
16. Sunder, Cleave, and Lacerate can apply CCC to your basic attack. However, whether they combines with other talents is currently unknown.

Terminology:
CCC: Cross class Combo
AOE: Area of Effect


Cleave and Sunder should work in combination with abilities like Tornado (100% crit). There is no reason that they wouldnt work together, talents are designed to be synergetic. This gives warriors 2 AOE CCC options (upgraded whirlwind and upgraded tremor) similar to rogues. There is little reason to take sunder if it only works on auto attacks (when the entire 2hand tree is based on active abilities which sunder wouldn't effect)

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 20 février 2011 - 07:31 .


#23
Naitaka

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Sabresandiego wrote...

I dont see why Sunder would not work in combination with abilities like Tornado (100% crit). This gives warriors 2 AOE CCC's similar to rogues.


Would be awesome if they work together but remember that talents in Origin that modify your attacks directly such as Destroyer and Two-Handed Impact only work on auto-attack. Two-Handed Impact is worse because it only works on one out of three auto-attack animation.

Modifié par Naitaka, 20 février 2011 - 07:26 .


#24
ViSeiRa

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Check Giant's Reach description "The warrior's two-handed attacks rip through the air with such power that each generates a shockwave past the point of impact, effectively extending the weapon's reach. This affects basic attacks, Whirlwind, Mighty Blow and Scythe."

There's no reason Sunder is not the same.

#25
Malevolence65

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Thank you very much, this'll definitely help me on Nightmare (I'm really gonna be out of my element with Nightmare).